"Bulk" Powder

[Duckiller]

While visiting my brother last fall he gave me the last of the powder that we used to reload shotgun shells when we were in JR. HS. We are now both on Social Security. We loaded with a single stage Herters press and measured the shot and powder with an adjustable scoop. It wasn't fast but the shells were good and cheap. Anyway I have 3-4 8 oz. cans of unopened powder. This is real DuPont powder probably from the mid 50's. Does anyone have any idea what I can do with it i.e. will it fit in a pistol? One can is half used and the other cans are still sealed. Powder looks good. It has been stored in a cool dry basement in the original case and cans. Seems a waste to turn these historical artifacts into into fertilizer. Awaiting anyones reasonable suggestions.

[waksupi]

If it is shotgun powder, it has lots of uses. Best bet it to post what types they are, and we can go from there.

[Duckiller]

the name of the powder is "bulk". DuPont made it in the 50's at least that is when my parents bought a case of it from Herters.

[waksupi]

I'm not familiar with powder marked Bulk. Do you have any old load data that was being used in the shotguns? It may give a clue as to the burn rate.
Someone here has to be familiar with it.

Some links that may help. Google is your friend.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/127173-du-pont-bulk-hi-skor-powders.html

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=170662.0

Last but not least,

http://gunloads.com/castboolits/showthread.php?t=29302

The more links I look at, the more it sounds like a good candidate for fertilizer.

[skeet1]

I think Waksupi is right try it in the .38 spl. and use somthing like Bulleye data. Using 2.0 gr. of your powder would be prudent and then go from there. I remember this Dupont Bulk powder but have never used it.

Ken

[Bent Ramrod]

Dupont Bulk Shotgun powder came in a light green and white can. It is pale yellow/green granules, very light and crumbly. You can still use it in shotguns, if you have a dram measure. I tried it in my 16 gauge. It looks like a horrendous amount of powder to those of us who are used to the small amounts of more modern dense powders in modern shells, and you may have trouble fitting modern plastic combination shot cup/wad columns into the shell. I was using it in the old paper shells, which had a lot more room in them.

It can be used in rifles and pistols, but much care has to be taken. Typically the stuff was used for target loads in straight-walled or tapered cases like the .32-40 and .38-55. Get Major Roberts' book on the Single Shot Match Rifle and read his instructions for screening the fines out and separating the coarse grains from the finer ones. Different charge weights will need to be developed for each grain size, and I would guess that different lots of the powder would need new charge weights developed even with the same screenings.

I would suggest that you avoid the Major's suggested loads, certainly for starting points, and work up very gradually from way below. Bulk Shotgun, even if graded, is extremely "sudden," and pressures, especially at the head of the case, build up rapidly with small charge increments without any particular velocity increase. I had read a lot about the early Schuetzen riflemen screening this stuff to replace the legendary Dupont #1 and #2 Smokeless powders for target shooting and sieved a bunch of the stuff myself back in the '70's, saving it for testing in the old calibers as I acquired rifles for them. That testing is done.

I am presently using up my separated batches of Bulk Shotgun in .32-40 offhand practice. It works OK (but not legendarily) at 200 yards, and in my experience, there is absolutely nothing it can do that more modern powders like SR-4759 don't do a lot better. You can get higher velocities at lower pressures and the loadings are far less critical. But I had to see what it was like in "the good old days."

[smokemjoe]

I am using 13 grs. in my 41 swiss with a 330 gr. bullet. I could go more. Dupont PB is a good one also.

[giz189]

Paul Matthews commented on DuPont "bulk" gunpowder in one of his books, I don't remember which it was though. If I remember, it was designed as a shotgun powder and he loaded up some for a rifle, a few grains less than what he had been using, I think he wrote he ruined the rifle when he shot it. .02.

[lylejb]

There's a very limited shotgun load section on DuPont bulk powder in P.O. Ackley's book. (1966)

"This is a true bulk smokless powder and has been the favorite of many handloaders since 1893. It is the only powder of it's type availible to the handloader today.
Warning: While it is intended for volumetric loading by drams it is not suitable for use as a replacement for black powder in older guns."

It lists 2 or 3 loads for each, 10 thru 28ga.

no loads are listed for rifle or pistol

[Dale53]

I suggest that the original poster might be MUCH happier, in the long run, if he sold the Dupont Bulk Shotgun powder as an antique. There are collectors who would love to have this stuff. Then take the money and buy some current powders for his needs.

He'll have an opportunity to make a buck or two and make some collector(s) very happy. Further, he will have much more suitable powder for his current needs.

Just a thought...

Dale53

[nanuk]

Wasn't "Bulk" initially intended to be used volume for volume replacement for BP?

I thought I read that somewhere

[wiljen]

Yep Nanuk, it was. I'm not sure it ever really accomplished that on a grain for grain basis, but it was supposed to be a volumetric equal for BP. (Not weight). You would have to use older BP measures to gauge the density and figure comparative weights.

[Dale53]

It was bulk for bulk for black for the USE IN SHOTGUN SHELLS. That does not universally apply to cartridge guns...

Dale53

[nanuk]

wiljen: thanks for confirming that... I'm not that old, but my memory seems more like dreams sometimes (or hallucinations) and I "Think" I remember something.... but not sure.

Dale53: thanks, and yes, I do remember reading for Shotgun Shells only.

[30calflash]

This has been an informative post. I received 6 or 8 cans from a guy that had shot a lot of SS rifles. Info is generally unavailable. Only a mention of it in Sharpes Guide, no data. I didn't want to use it without some info, nor did I want to pitch it. It looks like it's really meant to be used in shotguns, everything else is somewhat unknown territory.

[nanuk]

wonder if it would work in a modern ML?

[wiljen]

I would be very wary of trying it in a Muzzleloader as it is still technically a smokeless powder and is likely to behave very differently as pressure rise time etc is concerned when compared to real black powder. I think use of bulk shotgun powder in a muzzleloader sounds like a great way to get hurt.

[waksupi]

I would be very wary of trying it in a Muzzleloader as it is still technically a smokeless powder and is likely to behave very differently as pressure rise time etc is concerned when compared to real black powder. I think use of bulk shotgun powder in a muzzleloader sounds like a great way to get hurt.


Do not shoot it in a muzzle loader, unless you want to blow it up first shot. Don't even think about it.

[curiousgeorge]

I also have a partial can of "BULK" powder. I would help my dad load 12 guage paper hulls with card wads. He used a Lee loading kit that he had ordered from Sears. I keep it and the loading kit along with the piece of red cedar that he whittled to "iron" out the case mouths just to remind me of sitting in the living room floor and helping him load all those old Winchester paper hulls. I am sure that I was more in the way than anything, but it was my first reloading experience somewhere around 4 years old.

I think that Dale53 gave good advice. Sell it. Somebody else out there might be looking for a can to finish out their "memory lane" reloading kit.

[Ed in North Texas]

Wasn't "Bulk" initially intended to be used volume for volume replacement for BP?

I thought I read that somewhere

Exactly. It made the conversion from Black Powder to smokeless easier when those who had been reloading with BP could buy Bulk smokeless and reload with exactly the same routine. I never heard of Bulk being used for metallic cartridges, but that doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be used that way also.

[smokemjoe]

I have used 3 grs. in black powder rifle loads for a duplex load. burns the black powder faster and cleaner. Duckkiller, your giving our age away. Joe

[870TC]

On a side note, if the fine powdery dust from the Bulk shotgun powder granules gets separated from the rest of the powder granules, it supposedly becomes a high explosive. So be a little careful around old cans of this that may have naturally separated over the years.

[w30wcf]

I was given 4 cans of DuPont Bulk Smokeless several years ago. I used Phil Sharpe's instructions for screening it.....separating the coarse grains from the medium and fine grains.

I used 6 grs of the coarse in 30-30 "Short Range" replication loads (125 gr cast bullet) and it worked very well giving around 1,200 f.p.s. and great groups.

I used a capacity load of the medium grained powder in the .22 Hornet. That turned in 1/2" 50 yard groups at 2,000 f.p.s. with 45 gr bullets. Outstanding!

w30wcf

[nanuk]

I was actually thinking of any modern ML that could use 150gr of black.

if bulk is volume for volume replacement for BP and can be used in Old Shotguns (perhaps even wrapped?) without undue pressure, then why would it not produce the same pressure as BP in a ML?

the combustion chamber is the same regarding both... a shotshell has a "full" chamber, as does a ML...

that is why I asked

[Dale53]

nanuk;
ML rifles and shotguns are two entirely different animals, just like smokeless ones.

I suggest that you do NOT try to use bulk smokeless in a ML rifle without data.

That powder was made nearly 100 years ago. Some chemical processes of those years were not stable. Prudence would suggest NOT doing what you suggest.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

With Trail Boss and SR-4759 generally available these days, my thoughts are that using the Dupont Bulk powder isn't worth the risk. I would find a collector and send it their way.

[nanuk]

That powder was made nearly 100 years ago. Some chemical processes of those years were not stable. Prudence would suggest NOT doing what you suggest.

Dale53

Dale, I don't have the powder, I was just asking to try to understand the theory.

Here is why I still have some trouble wrapping my head around this.

lets say you have a 50-90, and you load 90gr black and get X pressures, then you load a full case of some slow powder, like H870 or RL25... the pressures would be same or lower so why can't you sub in a ML?
(now, don't go picking apart my example. I only picked them for theory. but I have found data elsewhere that crosses over pretty much exact.)

Pressure is pressure, pressure rise is pressure rise. if the pressure is the same, but the rise is longer, then the safety issue is mitigated.

Has anyone even tried it? I know a couple guys up here tried it on a whim, but they didn't have any means of checking pressures. And it didn't blow up their guns.

my ML is rated at 150gr of powder.... no mention of max bullet weight. So it can easily handle the pressures produced by 90gr of BP.

[Dale53]

nanuk;
It is really very simple. I don't "experiment" with powder that has no data to judge pressures when used in a particular mode. Shotguns are not rifles and react to pressure differently (shot compared to solid bullets, etc). It may be perfectly safe but I don't KNOW that. What you can get away with, one time, is NOT the criteria. What is SAFE is the question.

Logic does not always apply when handling powder, much less 100 year old bulk smokeless that has little data available. Just ask any ballistician (I'm NOT a ballistician).

Let's all be prudent and BE SAFE...

Dale53

[wiljen]

The issue I see is that the powder was designed to work with small charges in a mildly if at all compressed environment. Using it in a muzzleloader where you intentionally tamp it to get the most possible compression is a drastic departure from use in a shotshell. The other thing is a shot shell has a certain amount of lateral flex to the shell as it conforms to the chamber wall that is not present in a muzzleloader so again, the powder may react differently to the change in confinement.

Bottom line is risking your gun and your health to find out if it works is a poor idea. I suspect somebody in the 1930s probably tried it and found out it was a poor idea or it would have been marketed as a BP substitute long before now.

[felix]

Black powder cannot deliver any more than 15K peak pressure because of its alloyed nature. The peak for smokeless? 100K is not out of the question, and depends upon its elemental components which are made into a new chemical for its basic structure. Ignore coatings for this topic. ... felix

[Dale53]

felix;
Not to be argumentative, but black powder has been pressure checked under extreme circumstances of over 100,000 psi.

Dale53

[felix]

Dale, yes, when totally confined/restrained. ... felix

[nanuk]

as long as the Subs are still available, I won't be trying an "Experiment" like this.
especially with really old powder.

the problem up here is BP is getting very hard to get, and very expensive when you can find it. Shipping HazMat charges are huge. and there is nothing local.

I worry that the Subs will soon fall into the same problems.... after all, I have read that the Subs contain pretty much the same products as BP, and as soon as our Gov't figures that out, it will become rare also.

I hope someone comes up with a "True" Smokeless powder Sub before that happens.

[BerdanIII]

Duckiller:

There are some loads in Ken Waters/Ned Roberts (or vice versa) book, but they are for various Schuetzen calibers and all call for the powder to be sifted to eliminate the fines. Do you want them?

A friend of mine burned up can of Bulk a few months ago in a .38 Special. I don't know if he sifted it. The loads struck me as a little on the warm side; a 158-gr. boolit and about 4.5 grains, if I remember correctly.

[BerdanIII]

DuPont Bulk Shotgun Data

From: Lyman No. 38

.22 Hornet
#225438 (43-gr) - 4.1 gr.
Unique - 3.9 - 1450 fps est.


.22-250
#225438 (43-gr) - 8.0 - 1700 fps est.
SR4759 - 9.0 - 1700 fps est.
IMR4227 - 8.5 - 1800 fps est.

.250-3000
#257420 (65-gr) - 8.5 - 1200 fps est.
Bullseye - 4.9 - 1100 fps est.

.45-70
#457127 (210-gr) - 6.5 - 1000 fps est.
Unique - 7.0 - no velocity given

From: The Complete Guide to Handloading

.32-20 WCF Revolver
47-gr. roundball - 4.0 - 600 fps

From: The Breech-Loading Single-Shot Rifle

"To sift out this very fine-grained powder, purchase two wire tea strainers, one with 28 to 30 meshes to the inch, and the other 18 or 20 meshes to the inch. Be certain of these spacings as they are important in properly grading the powder granulations.

Now take the smallest mesh strainer, fill it about two-thirds full of Du Pont Bulk Shotgun Smokeless just as it come from the can, holding the sieve over a large pan, and shake it gently. In this way, the very finest grained powder will be sifted into the pan. Repeat this process until you have sifted the entire canister of powder with the 28 to 30-mesh sieve. You will find that about one quarter of the powder passed through this mesh sieve. Put it in an empty, plainly labeled canister, marking it "FFg - NOT for use in rifles!". This finest granulation burns so rapidly that it develops much too high pressures for safety in rifles.*

Next, using the 18 to 20-mesh strainer, again sift the powder which did not pass through the 28 to 30-mesh sieve, putting that collected into another canister to be labeled "Fg". This will be the major portion of the powder, and that which remains, being too coarse to pass even the 18-mesh strainer, should be placed in a third canister and marked "Cg".

.28-30 - 12.0 to 13.0 - Bulk Cg - Ideal 285221 (135 gr) - breech-seated ahead of shell
.32-40 - 12.0 to 15.0 - Bulk Cg or Fg - Ideal 319162 (185 gr), 319289 (185-gr) - breech-seated ahead of shell
.32-40 - 13.0 - "sifted", no granulation specified - Pope 200-gr - muzzle-loaded.

*In Major Ned H. Roberts and the Schuetzen Rifle - "That very fine 'F.F.G.' powder can be worked up into good loads for revolver cartridges if you are careful; it is touchy and quick tempered, so start with a small load for your revolver cartridges."

Based on the data above for a roundball in the .32-20, I would say that my memory is faulty on the charge my friend used in the .38 Special.