9,5x47R loading

[Paul Tummers]

It must have been about one year agoo that I have logged in here, Sorry about that, I only can tell, last year was not the best one of my life, but I am back!

I am expecting a rifle soon, it is chambered in 9,5x47R, do not know anything about this caliber, only that cases are readily available, not cheap, but I think the most economical way to go for me is just buying a 60 cases and then I have what I need, and no troubles with things like making sprecial tools which will only be of interest if one needs a large amount of cases, I intend not to shoot this rifle very much, it is more a collector's item to me, certainly with the take-down system.
Much talked, not said very much yet, but it comes of course down to bullets, moulds, eventually with gas-checks.
Who has experience with this caliber???

[elk hunter]

It's unlikely that very many people will have experience with this cartridge, this is what I found in "Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions".

9.5 x 47R Martini 9.5 x 47R Deutsche Schuetzen.

Black powder target cartridge circa 1880.

cases can be made from 43 Remington Spanish by turning the rim, trimming and neck reaming.

Nonte reported diameter as .348 to .350, but 9.5 MM is .374 so .370 to .375 is more likely.

Lead bullet 175 grains, 25.5 grains of IMR 3031. No velocity given

There is a reference to "Handloader #113 page 12". Possibly more information could be found there. Unfortunately all my older Handloader magazines are in storage right now so I can't look up that article.

Lovely rifle.

[Paul Tummers]

It's unlikely that very many people will have experience with this cartridge, this is what I found in "Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions".

9.5 x 47R Martini 9.5 x 47R Deutsche Schuetzen.

Black powder target cartridge circa 1880.

cases can be made from 43 Remington Spanish by turning the rim, trimming and neck reaming.

Nonte reported diameter as .348 to .350, but 9.5 MM is .374 so .370 to .375 is more likely.

Lead bullet 175 grains, 25.5 grains of IMR 3031. No velocity given

There is a reference to "Handloader #113 page 12". Possibly more information could be found there. Unfortunately all my older Handloader magazines are in storage right now so I can't look up that article.

Lovely rifle.

Thank You!!
I am slowly working to the point I have all components together to take the rifle to the range and try some loads.
I am not forming any cases, when I have 60 and I only neck-size them they will outlast me, I think.
Do you have any idea about bullet moulds and gas-checks?
That will be the main problem for me, to get a good bullet which is liked by this nice lady!

[elk hunter]

Paul,

I wouldn't think that you would need gas checks for a target round of that vintage, I suspect they didn't use them at that time. That should be a fairly low speed round.

As for a mould, you'll need to slug your bore to decide what diameter bullet you will need. If your barrel groove diameter is .375 or there about, you could possibly use the Lee mould that is made for the US 38-55 Winchester. That bullet from my Lee mould is .377 diameter and weighs approximately 250 grains depending on the metal mix. They could be sized down or patched up for a better fit.

I did look at Handloader Magazine #113 and there wasn't anything about the 9.5 x 47R in that issue that I could find. I'll check the web to see if I can find anything more about the cartridge.

[Wayne Smith]

I have a combination gun, the right side is a 10.5x47R - and it uses the 11mm Mauser cartridge cut down and necked. I bought some 9.5x47R brass that is based on the 11mm Mauser and fire formed it up to 10.5mm. Then I had Dan cut a mold for a boolit I designed on his website, Mountain Molds. Mine shoots a 265gr boolit at about 1400fps pushed by a full case of 777.

I'm guessing that is probably a BP round and a rifle designed around BP pressures. I doubt you will need gas checks. I only have the one mold for mine and don't plan another, this one shoots to 100 yds better than my eyes can.

[Paul Tummers]

I do not have the rifle yet in my house, so I cannot exactly tell you about the proof markings.
I found out already, the caliber is originally a BP-round, but at the other hand there are rifles built in this caliber until 1930, so it is not impossible that it has Nitro proof marks.
I have got some information about a load of 17.6 grain of N110 Vihtavuori powder for a 250 grain bullet.
If I win the Lottery, which is not very likely with the luck in those things I normally have, i would consider to have another barrel/extractor combination made in a low pressure Nitro caliber, which would be nice because of the take-down feature.
I will first buy some cerrosafe to measure exactly what I have and slug the barrel, and it would not be a bad idea to have made a mould to measurement too.
Do you use greased bullets for this kind of rifles/speed?

[elk hunter]

Paul,

In looking for more information on this cartridge I found a picture of old, original, loaded ammunition, the bullets were definitely grease lubricated lead bullets and not paper patched lead or metal jacketed.

If you can find an old DWM catalog of cartridges that gives the specifications of their ammunition it just might give you the original bullet diameter, weight and velocity. I believe their catalog number for this cartridge was #23.

The take-down feature of your rifle would make it quite easy to fit a second barrel for a modern low pressure cartridge, but I would still have to shoot the original one.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[Paul Tummers]

Paul,

In looking for more information on this cartridge I found a picture of old, original, loaded ammunition, the bullets were definitely grease lubricated lead bullets and not paper patched lead or metal jacketed.

If you can find an old DWM catalog of cartridges that gives the specifications of their ammunition it just might give you the original bullet diameter, weight and velocity. I believe their catalog number for this cartridge was #23.

The take-down feature of your rifle would make it quite easy to fit a second barrel for a modern low pressure cartridge, but I would still have to shoot the original one.

Keep us posted on your progress.
I am looking too all over the Internet, I even found a video were the Schutzen rifle was fired and loaded;
On that video, the bullet was loaded separatefrom the breech-end with some kind of device, and the case with powder was plugged at the neck and loaded after that, It looked, like the bullet was not greased.
I want to do and find out a lot of things about this rifle, but common sense tells me, the best thing is to sit down and wait until it has arrived.
I have my doubts about it being a Martini action, there are some pin holes missing in the frame to make it a true Martini action, and I think, the small lever at the stock behind the trigger guard can be turned 45 degrees or so and then the whole mechanism exept the block can be taken out, somewhat like the Martini cadet rifle?

[6.5 mike]

Think I have seen this round in COTW, I'm on the boat right now, but maybe someone else can check for him. Would be in the old european section. Very nice older rifle, good luck with it.

[troyboy]

That is one beautiful rifle. You are very fortunate to own much less shoot such a firearm

[Paul Tummers]

That is one beautiful rifle. You are very fortunate to own much less shoot such a firearm

Yes, I like it very much with its nicely grained stock and the octagonal barrel.
When it arrives, first thing i will do is slugging the bore to find out what size it is and then go for a perfect mould.

[Paul Tummers]

Got a reply from 2Tite, cannot find it in the list of postings??

[justashooter]

the 47 r case family was very popular in scheutzen match. phil sharpe talks about them in his treatise on handloading, indicating that cases were often reloaded on range with simple tong tools and that powder charges for reloading were marketed in nitrated "tea bags" in standard weights of semi-smokeless until the 2nd war.

[Paul Tummers]

the 47 r case family was very popular in scheutzen match. phil sharpe talks about them in his treatise on handloading, indicating that cases were often reloaded on range with simple tong tools and that powder charges for reloading were marketed in nitrated "tea bags" in standard weights of semi-smokeless until the 2nd war.

That is right, I got some documentation about that too.
They used to seat the bullet in the rifling with a special seating tool, used a capper/decapper to re-prime their cases and those cases were loaded with either
powder with a wad over it, those nitrated bags with powder or compressed powder sticks and loaded behind the bullet.
I found out, the pressures of those loads were around 900 Bar, while the max. pressure for a black powder proofed rifle was 1650 Bar, and those 250 grain bullets seemed to fly at their best at a muzle velocity of 450 meters/second.
This same speed at a somewhat lower pressure can be reached for the 9,5x47R with VV N110 wadded loads of about 15.5/16,5 gns.
Regards,
Paul T.

[Paul Tummers]

I made a Cerrosafe cast of the chamber and slugged the bore;
It is not what I thought, it is a 10x52R Target caliber, the bore slug measured 9,8mm, slugged from chamber to muzzle it felt like the last 10 cm of the barrel are choked very slightly.
Anybody any idea about the shape and weight of the original bullet?

[Paul Tummers]

I got a message from CH-4d; The rifle is chambered for the 10x47R round,
I ordered a forming die and a reloading die set for it, parental case is the .43 Mauser case.
With a very slow twist of 1: 545 mm my friend and I decided to go for a stubby bullet of 200 grains.
I looked on the Net at a video about case forming, never had that on hand and there was an interesting video about case forming for a Martini-Henry rifle from 24GA brass.
At the end the case was loaded and that puzzles me;
After priming the reduced BP load was filled into the case, load did not come to the shoulder of the bottle-neck case, then some filler of Dacron was fumbled into the case, compressed lightly with a wooden dowel, next came a cooky, made of a greased felt disc in between two card disks and the bullet was seated.
As having no experience with loading a bottle neck B-P case my question;
Is this OK, or is one asking for an explosion and very inconsistent velocities?

[the other DWS]

I found this thread in a search for 9.5x47r load data for a German/Swiss Martini actioned hunting/light target rifle I recently acquired. I am posting to it just to update some info in case anyone else stumbles onto it. Currently (june 2012) grafs has 9.5x47r basic brass, but it is basic and needs to be necked down and fire formed to fit the specific rifle.
{EDIT: Just received my Bertram Brass cases from Graf's. they are a nice drop-in fit in my specific rifle, straight from the mfg box. If anything they wll nee fire forming to expand to fit the chamber precisely. I immediately ordered another couple boxes of the brass}
Many/most of these old schuetzen rifles were hand made by custom builders using actions purchased from industrial scale action producers. As a result individual chambers may vary a bit in length and shoulder configuration. Throats too can vary and bullets need to be determined with a good chamber cast. CH-4D is the best current source for the dies needed to shape and load these antique rifles properly.
Regarding Breech seating: seating the bullet into the throat (prior to inserting a charged cartridge case into the breech) with a mechanical tool was common among the target shooters of the "schuetzen era" in the US. It was not a technique used much in European target shooting circles.

The shooters of the American Single Shot Rifle Association still practice this technique. {see: ASSRA.com} Several members are currently producing these tools as a bit of a cottage industry. There are several other regional shooting groups who still practice the schuetzen approach to target shooting. All pretty much restrict themselves to single shot (non-bolt action) rifles and plain based lead bullets. That is no jackets or gas-checks; though paper patched bullets and the use of over-powder wads is permitted, and often necessary for some action types.

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
At the end the case was loaded and that puzzles me;
After priming the reduced BP load was filled into the case, load did not come to the shoulder of the bottle-neck case, then some filler of Dacron was fumbled into the case, compressed lightly with a wooden dowel, next came a cooky, made of a greased felt disc in between two card disks and the bullet was seated.
As having no experience with loading a bottle neck B-P case my question;
Is this OK, or is one asking for an explosion and very inconsistent velocities?

A Black Powder cartridge should not have air space between the powder charge and the base of the boolit (bullet). Various fillers are used, including dacron, kapok, corn meal and cereals such as Cream of Wheat (Farina cooked cereal). A grease cookie is often not needed with a grease groove boolit, but is necessary to soften the Black Powder residue when used with paper patched boolits.

The .577-450 Martini-Henry cartridge is quite large and requires a heavy charge of Black Powder to fill the case with no air space. This results in heavy recoil, so reduced charges are often used. When I shoot my 12.7x44R Swedish Rolling Block, I use a charge of 65 or 70 grains of Black Powder (2F KIK), a .030" card wad and a grease groove cast boolit compressing the powder charge slightly. This is a straight cartridge case, not bottle necked).

Hope that helps.

Ed

Sucked in again by a resurrected thread.

Ed

[Good Cheer]

I sometimes spend time with a 9.5x52. The bore is 9.5. The groove diameter is .389"-.390". I'm sitting waiting on some weather to clear far from home and don't precisely recommember what it is but my sizer die is 0.391". Two things that have worked in mine in the past is a NEI .388-196 PB SWC and once upon a time sizing down the Lyman 38-40 mold. Tried the 375248 paper patched with Pyrodex long ago but didn't finish wringing it out.