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SharpsShooter
12-19-2006, 08:59 PM
I have been meaning to give paper patched boolit shooting a whirl for some time and finally ordered 50 pre patched 450gr 45-70 boolits from Bullshop. I correctly figured that he could put the diapers on those pretty boolits waaay better than me and my ten thumbs. They arrived yesterday and look fine, but now I gotta load em and figure those of you that have experience with these might have some wisdom to pass along.

I'm shooting black powder only, so have to figure on a lube cookie. Question is how thick to make the cookie? How bad a problem is lube migration past the bottom wad into the charge? Or is it a problem at all?

SS

Bullshop
12-19-2006, 10:56 PM
I have been meaning to give paper patched boolit shooting a whirl for some time and finally ordered 50 pre patched 450gr 45-70 boolits from Bullshop. I correctly figured that he could put the diapers on those pretty boolits waaay better than me and my ten thumbs. They arrived yesterday and look fine, but now I gotta load em and figure those of you that have experience with these might have some wisdom to pass along.

I'm shooting black powder only, so have to figure on a lube cookie. Question is how thick to make the cookie? How bad a problem is lube migration past the bottom wad into the charge? Or is it a problem at all?

SS
For an over powder wad to prevent lube migration to the powder I cut wads from styrofoam picnic plates. Compress the powder first then seat the wad. This will form a barier between powder and lube.
For the lube wad I use a press mounted extruder sold by C. Sharps arms. It will extrude a continuous ribbon apx. 1/16" thick. Generaly one wad is enough but under hot dry conditions or from a big case with more powder than a 45/70 two wads may sometimes be needed. The boolit base is protected by the patch paper.
The whole smeal will be blown a couple feet in front of the barrel in shreds. You will clearly see land groove marks on the peaces of paper.
I can send some extruded ribbon if you need some. Sorry I didnt think of it with your order.
I think you will like that boolit. It is the only paper patch design I know of that is intended for conventional SAAMI throating and not paper patch throating.
The way I patch there is already a lube wad in place at the base and a thin film of lube over the patch.
It has been a very accurate design from several of my rifles and I have used it to take mule deer, caribou, moose, and grizzley bear. Even had an outing with B00 in a dog town once upon a time. Any dogs standing on a mound within 200 yards were in big trouble.
BIC/BS

powderburnerr
12-19-2006, 11:16 PM
sharpsshooter,
I put a wad on the powder and use an eyedropper to put in melted lube .I got the dropper at a pharmacy it is marked and I use .5 ml in each case . I seat my bullets 2 tenths in the case and with pp bullets find a cleaner and faster burn if the powder is dumped rather than dropped through a tube. in my 110 I use 90 gns of kik and 480s with my 565s I use 100 to 110 of kik or 1F goex. the heavier bullet works a lot better with the heavier charges . if you find paper rings in the chamber the case is too short or they are bumping up to fast . if so use a larger powder granulation. I have tried the wads over ,under . and sandwiching the lube . my best results came from a sandwich of 30 wad grease cookie 30 wad .

the new express works as well as kik and may shoot a little tighter it needs compression where the kik doesnt . the kikis also very clean ...Dean

JBMauser
12-19-2006, 11:24 PM
I cut a over powder wad from coffee can lids. I seat that and then I put a piece of sheet bees wax the kind you buy from a craft store which is waffle stamped and you roll it up around a wick and make a candle. I just put a sheet across the top and push my thumb over it to stamp it out. I take my paper patched bullets and tumble them in a bit of lee liquid alox. a light coat. I thumb seat them. I compress the power charge before I insert card and wax cookie. these cases are unsized. One ragged hole.... I love it. Best of luck. JB

SharpsShooter
12-20-2006, 08:47 PM
Guys,
Thanks for the advice. I've been reading what I can find here and out on the net as well. A friend of mine is bringing me Paul Matthews book this weekend.

Dan,

I did not think of the ribbon lube when I placed the order. I'll cobb something together as an extruder for the time being.

SS

SharpsShooter
12-20-2006, 09:08 PM
Just wanted to add, Bullshops boolits are very decent quality. I have to correct my earlier post stating these boolits were 450gr. My mistake. They are 514gr with less than .5 grain with the patch. The diameter control is something too. The 10 boolit sample measure .4595 with no difference across the board. None, Nada, Zip, Zilch. I'll report back my shooting results with them soon.


SS

Christian for Israel
12-25-2006, 11:47 AM
anybody ever try paper patch with modern powder? i've been wanting to cobble together some patched boolits for my 8mm mauser. my aim is to minimize leading of the barrel while shooting cast .312's, with the patch increasing the diameter to the proper .323, at fairly high velocities (2500fps +/-).

SharpsShooter
12-25-2006, 01:02 PM
Welcome to the board!!!

Paul Matthews in his book "Forty Years with the 45-70" discusses using White powder with the paper patched boolit with good results. It can and has been done on the smaller calibers also. He was working in the 1900-2000fps range using pure lead boolits patched to proper diameter.


SS

Christian for Israel
12-31-2006, 01:17 PM
thanks for the welcome and the info. would you suggest a smooth sided boolit mold or do you think it would be possible to use one with lube grooves?

SharpsShooter
12-31-2006, 01:32 PM
Paul Matthews spoke of using both, but the smooth sided was the better choice. I just tested a 514gr smooth sided paper patch boolit in my 1895 using smokeless and it shot well for a first attempt, putting 3 shots into a 1.5" group at 50-yds. The gun will do much better than that with it's pet load, but that did show potential. I was running them 1500+fps and plan on reducing that to around 1200-1300fps as the recoil was real entertainment for the guys watching me shoot.

If you use a grooved boolit, remember you will have to size it down a good bit to allow for patch thickness



SS

Christian for Israel
12-31-2006, 02:09 PM
remember, i'm starting with a .312 cast boolit and hoping the patch will increase it up to the needed .323.

SharpsShooter
12-31-2006, 02:54 PM
Yep that is true. Slipped my mind. Just curious...have you tried the Lee 8mm Max boolit. It is a 250gr gas check design with a .322 ish diameter nose that works well in many Mausers, including mine. I'm not trying to disuade you from the paper patch as it is a interesting way to go.

SS

Christian for Israel
12-31-2006, 06:35 PM
i'm considering casting a regular .323 but i'm concerned about excessive leading of the barrel. i figured patching would be similar to using a jacketed bullet and reduce fouling.

SharpsShooter
12-31-2006, 07:56 PM
i'm considering casting a regular .323 but i'm concerned about excessive leading of the barrel. i figured patching would be similar to using a jacketed bullet and reduce fouling.

Given reasonable bore condition, a lead boolit will not lead if

1. Consideration is given to proper fit to throat and bore diameter.
2. Proper lube is used in relation to pressures developed
3. Alloy mixture is adjusted in relation to both pressures developed and intended usage

All the above may sound like a lot of work, but it is not. I would, in your case, start with a gas check design of .324 diameter, in the velocity range of 1600fps and work up to whatever you feel is required and SAFE for your plinking, target shooting or hunting needs. The paper patch can and does prevent leading according to my reading and some of my recent shooting proves that out, but it still requires proper fit to achieve those results.

SS

Bullshop
12-31-2006, 07:58 PM
Sharpsshooter
Not much time now but will get with you soon to help. This was from B00 my 1895 Marlin at 100 yards. B00 has about the same throat condition you describe in your rifle, with the patch being almost entirely in the case.
Keep the faith!!!
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/706bd5d7.jpg

SharpsShooter
12-31-2006, 08:56 PM
Dan,

I know it can be cured. I'm just not sure where I went wrong.

............For those of you just tuning in I am working up BPCR loads with the PP boolit. I did not have any luck with the BP loads, but did see promise with that faddish white powder........anyway, I refuse to post a bad shoot result with someone elses product before I have a chance to check out my method to see if I am the faulty product. I know Dan's stuff is good. I just need to figure out what went screwy.

Here is the story............

I loaded up 20 rounds of the paper patch boolits with Black Powder for my 75 Sharps and managed to escape to the range yesterday to test them. I also loaded up some smokeless loads for my 1895 with that boolit to try.

I wish I could say the Sharps shot them well, but it sure did not. Groups at 50yds were wild and scattered. Often we could see the patch burning in the air at the 50yd line like some deviant fireworks. I had no problems with leading or fouling, but could not keep them on a paper plate at that short distance. I was so surprised that I broke out a box of my match ammo (457125 w/ 55gr of Goex Cartridge) to see if my shooting or the rifle had gone screwy. That was not the problem and I actually fired a 5 shot group at 100yd that measured .960" center to center. Sooooo, not the rifle, not the shooter. I am going to list my load below to see if you can figure out what is the problem. Keep in mind that my Sharps has almost no throat and as a result I have to seat the boolit down to where the patch almost disappears.

1. Size and deprime as normal.
2. Chamfer Case mouth and clean primer pocket.
3. Expand case mouth
4. Prime case.
5. Measure charge (55gr) and drop tube 24" into case
6. Compress charge to required depth.
7. Insert .030" vegie wad and seat with wood dowel.
8. Cut lube cookie from rolled ribbon with case mouth
9. Seat boolit (boolit pushes the cookie down )
10. Taper crimp just enough to remove bell of case mouth

Presto...1 loaded case...whew! I can do it faster than I can type it. Anyway, that is how I do it...where is the problem? I can't see a flaw in my load method and it makes me wonder if the rifle throat is just too abrubt for this design...


Your thoughts and wisdom are appreciated.......


SS

powderburnerr
01-01-2007, 12:42 AM
put another wad on the top of the lube ,you are getting blow by and if the patch is burning it isnt good .it also sounds like the patch is being torn . in the sharps try sizing a few down to 446 t o 447 after patching .. and cast with 40-1 or softer .. you will be mildly surprised. in my 45s I use a 440 wrapped to 446 and use 3/16 inch of lube sandwiched between two .30 wads . I seat the bullet 2 tenths in the case .
.......Dean

Bullshop
01-01-2007, 11:27 PM
Something I dont understand is why are the patches going 50 yards? I have never had one go more than ten feet. What kind of barrel is it? Is it left hand twist? These boolits are patched for right hand twist so the leading edg of the paper can catch the air as it spins. Should tear the patch off at the muzzle and be blown not more than a few feet.
Perhaps the 50gn charge is not producing enough pressure to press the patch to the bottom of the grooves to scor the patch. Normaly the patch should come apart at the land cuts.
BIC/BS

powderburnerr
01-02-2007, 12:02 AM
I think the grease was going past the bullet and sticking the patch to the bullet .
my patches are found within 5 feet of the muzzle .I roll them left handed and get confetti .when I roll them right handed I get unwrapped patches with cuts in the patch to match the lands. the black burns so much faster than white powder the grease cookie was moving before the inertia of the bullet was overcome. ...Dean

4060MAY
01-02-2007, 11:45 AM
from the guy that invented it

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPATRE4491&id=EoseAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=PATCHED+BULLET#PPP3,M1

SharpsShooter
01-02-2007, 12:34 PM
Something I dont understand is why are the patches going 50 yards? I have never had one go more than ten feet. What kind of barrel is it? Is it left hand twist? These boolits are patched for right hand twist so the leading edg of the paper can catch the air as it spins. Should tear the patch off at the muzzle and be blown not more than a few feet.
Perhaps the 50gn charge is not producing enough pressure to press the patch to the bottom of the grooves to scor the patch. Normaly the patch should come apart at the land cuts.
BIC/BS

Friend, that makes two of us. It is a heavy contour Badger 1:18. Patches were fluttering around like bottle rockets gone wild. If 50gr of cartridge Goex won't bump it up, I suppose I could try Swiss, but I am going to be limited on powder space due to the short throat no matter what I select. Apparently my 1895 Marlin is better suited to the PP than my Sharps as it did better. Go figure.

SS

SharpsShooter
01-02-2007, 12:40 PM
I think the grease was going past the bullet and sticking the patch to the bullet .
my patches are found within 5 feet of the muzzle .I roll them left handed and get confetti .when I roll them right handed I get unwrapped patches with cuts in the patch to match the lands. the black burns so much faster than white powder the grease cookie was moving before the inertia of the bullet was overcome. ...Dean

There was considerable lube still in the bore and no patches were recovered. Just don't make good sense.

SS

Bullshop Junior
01-02-2007, 02:22 PM
Just to humor me would you be willing to go with just the lube that comes on the patch, and eliminate the wad altogether for a couple shots? Adjust the powder charge up to compensate for the change. Other things that come to mind are, the taper crimp may be reducing the diameter of the soft patch/boolit. Same goes for sized cases. I use only fireformed unsized cases for PP. Stabbing in the dark yes, but ???
BIC/BS

45 2.1
01-02-2007, 02:50 PM
Does the patched part of the boolit engrave or touch the rifling firmly? If it doesn't, then there is your problem. Any run to the rifling with a patched boolit usually is disasterous, black or white powder.

powderburnerr
01-02-2007, 03:28 PM
There was considerable lube still in the bore and no patches were recovered. Just don't make good sense.

SS

the rear wad bent folded collapsed or something to that effect .the patch was ignited by the powder . burned patches will not shoot and sticking ones dont shoot either .

I shot a lot of 45-70 with white and pp seated deep and had a lot of grouse loads ... whirring into the distance,,,
When I quit wet wrapping things worked better in the rifle .I also tried sizing to glaze the patch with dismal results .

the second wad on the cookie makes the lube act like an O ring on a piston the more pressure you exert the tighter it seals and the bullet base backs up the front wad stopping lube movement until the bullet gets moving
sounds as if to me...........Dean

Bullshop Junior
01-02-2007, 04:07 PM
I concur with 45 2.1 with a patched boolit the patch should be engraved on chambering.
BIC/BS

SharpsShooter
01-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Just to humor me would you be willing to go with just the lube that comes on the patch, and eliminate the wad altogether for a couple shots? Adjust the powder charge up to compensate for the change. Other things that come to mind are, the taper crimp may be reducing the diameter of the soft patch/boolit. Same goes for sized cases. I use only fireformed unsized cases for PP. Stabbing in the dark yes, but ???
BIC/BS

I'd be tickled to ignore the cookie as it is a extra step in the process. Yes I can eliminate the .030 veggie wad and bring the charge up to compensate. I may be able to get 60gr (compressed) in the case and still seat the boolit.

SS

SharpsShooter
01-02-2007, 06:25 PM
Does the patched part of the boolit engrave or touch the rifling firmly? If it doesn't, then there is your problem. Any run to the rifling with a patched boolit usually is disasterous, black or white powder.

45 2.1,
I have read the same. This boolit goes .457 on the nose just before the patch and it takes a sturdy thumb to seat it fully to clear the breachblock. I believe it to be tight to the rifling, but could be mistaken.



the rear wad bent folded collapsed or something to that effect .the patch was ignited by the powder . burned patches will not shoot and sticking ones dont shoot either .

I shot a lot of 45-70 with white and pp seated deep and had a lot of grouse loads ... whirring into the distance,,,


When I quit wet wrapping things worked better in the rifle .I also tried sizing to glaze the patch with dismal results .

the second wad on the cookie makes the lube act like an O ring on a piston the more pressure you exert the tighter it seals and the bullet base backs up the front wad stopping lube movement until the bullet gets moving
sounds as if to me...........Dean

That is a good description...grouse loads

SharpsShooter
01-02-2007, 06:29 PM
Heck, one other thing......Matthews says he always cuts off the twisted or folded tail before loading a patched plain base boolit. Anyone agree or disagree?

SS

45 2.1
01-02-2007, 07:48 PM
I have read the same. This boolit goes .457 on the nose just before the patch and it takes a sturdy thumb to seat it fully to clear the breachblock. I believe it to be tight to the rifling, but could be mistaken.

If your shooting BP, the exposed nose should be a firm push to seat over fouling to get good accuracy and the patch should dirty itself on the lands/throat area. A good contact that shows the start of the rifling on the patch when withdrawn when your at the correct seating depth.

Heck, one other thing......Matthews says he always cuts off the twisted or folded tail before loading a patched plain base boolit. Anyone agree or disagree?

I twist, let them almost dry, but the tail is still slightly damp and trim the tail off with nippers and put the tail down on a hard surface and twist it closed and flat, then let dry all the way before lubeing the patch.

powderburnerr
01-02-2007, 09:09 PM
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/powderburnerr/CopyofIMAG0002cut.jpg

here e is haw a sharps cartridge is supposed to look

powderburnerr
01-02-2007, 09:22 PM
figgered out the picture thing .. now just need to learn how to type....Dean

Bullshop
01-03-2007, 02:29 AM
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/powderburnerr/CopyofIMAG0002cut.jpg

here e is haw a sharps cartridge is supposed to look
Yes that is what a Sharps cartridge looked like when it was loaded for a Sharps chamber. SharpsShooter has an saami chamber. The origonal Sharps chamber was very much the way an saami 458 Win mag chamber is with long free bored throat. In fact if you load PP out to engauge the lands in a 458 chamber it looks like a Sharps cartridge with a belt. And yes the 458 does shoot PP very well.
So with conventional throat SS cant seat long as in origonal Sharps loadings.
Tomarrow God willing I will dig out some data and photo's of some BP/PP loads fired from my match rifle. This 1885 Browning has the same twist and throat as SharpsShooters rifle.
The Farmingdale Shiloh's had origonal type throats for PP. When used by the ignorant with grease groove boolits seated to the crimp groove those wonderfull rifles had a reputation for poor accuracy. Before Quiggley they could be found at shows for very reasonable prices.
I remember a chap looking over an Italian Siles Sharps at a show and asking his pard * is this one of the bad ones* and his pard says * no thats one of the good ones*. Go figure!
BIC/BS

Marlin Junky
01-03-2007, 03:46 AM
I'm just getting interested in PP boolits with smokeless powder but haven't actually made/fired any yet but have read "The Paper Jacket" by P. Matthews. What puzzles me is that Matthews is talking about accuracy at 2200 fps with a lead/tin alloy of 97/3 percent. I would think major boolit base distortion would take place under these conditions.

MJ

45 2.1
01-03-2007, 07:45 AM
I'm just getting interested in PP boolits with smokeless powder but haven't actually made/fired any yet but have read "The Paper Jacket" by P. Matthews. What puzzles me is that Matthews is talking about accuracy at 2200 fps with a lead/tin alloy of 97/3 percent. I would think major boolit base distortion would take place under these conditions.

MJ

Your right, it does. The entire base is covered with an exact outline of a bunch of powder grains half engraved into the base. It does not hurt accuracy though. I have shot many long range groups under MOA with smokeless patched boolits.

L Ross
01-03-2007, 11:05 AM
I'll throw my meager experience in here. I was gifted a RCBS 550 gr. PP mould. It throws a .450" smooth sided straight non-tapered bullet. Patched with air mail paper thet mic'd .458" I wiped a smidge of Emmert's lube on the wrapped bullet prior to loading. First rifle was a Badger barreled roller in 45x2.4", 80 gr Goex 2fg compressed wax paper wad over powder, I rolled a little ball of Emmert's about the size of a #1 buckshot and dropped it on top of the wax paper wad, finger seated the bullet so it was jammed against the leade when the action was closed. First shot success, second round would not go into the gun.
Back to the drawing board. Then I read somewhere what has worked for me in every attempt since. For smokeless patch to groove diamemeter, for black powder patch to bore diameter. From my grease groove bullet experience I could not believe it, but it is true.
So I got around that by running the patched and lightly lubed bullets thru my Star sizer with a .451" die in it. My current PP rifle is a modern Shiloh, no throat, zip, zilch, none, The small driving band on a Lyman 457125 must be in the case or they will not seat yet a PP with a .451" total diameter shoots fine. Not only fine but completely through a buffalo.
So now I need to order two PP moulds, one that throws a 450 gr small flat nose core at .442" and another at 370 gr a .392". Maybe after the good money fairy visits.

L Ross

powderburnerr
01-03-2007, 12:46 PM
bullshop . With all due respect, this is modern ammunition shot in standard chambered rifles loaded with origional teniques and data and shot daily with with very good results to 1000 yards ...Dean

Bullshop
01-03-2007, 02:18 PM
bullshop . With all due respect, this is modern ammunition shot in standard chambered rifles loaded with origional teniques and data and shot daily with with very good results to 1000 yards ...Dean
I cant deny what you are saying and neather can you deny what I have said. There is a big difference between a PP throat and an conventional SAAMI throat. I would guess that for such a long seating some adjustment has been made with your mold that you can seat so much boolit length in an SAAMI throat. I am guessing it has a long taper and much of that boolit length is riding the lands.
The boolits I sent SS are parilel sided so cant be loaded to such a length in a SAAMI throat.
So with that in mind lets all put our heads together and see if we can help solve his problem.
BIC/BS

Marlin Junky
01-03-2007, 04:43 PM
Your right, it does. The entire base is covered with an exact outline of a bunch of powder grains half engraved into the base. It does not hurt accuracy though. I have shot many long range groups under MOA with smokeless patched boolits.

So the patch covering the base is obliterated before the boolit exits the muzzle?

I've got something else that's bothering me too. The H-R Whelen is what I thought I'd shoot my first PP boolit through but I may send it back to the factory for a 45-70 barrel. The Whelen has .358" grooves but it has a .361" seat with a .0015" step to the grooves. You can't see the step in the photo below but it's there, right at the rifling's commencement. You can clearly see the mark engraved by the land on the other side of the calipers... especially if you enlarge the thumbnail. Am I wasting my time attempting to shoot PPB's through it?

MJ

45 2.1
01-03-2007, 08:35 PM
So the patch covering the base is obliterated before the boolit exits the muzzle? No, it is impressed thru the patch the same as the rifling is.

I've got something else that's bothering me too. The H-R Whelen is what I thought I'd shoot my first PP boolit through but I may send it back to the factory for a 45-70 barrel. The Whelen has .358" grooves but it has a .361" seat with a .0015" step to the grooves. You can't see the step in the photo below but it's there, right at the rifling's commencement. You can clearly see the mark engraved by the land on the other side of the calipers... especially if you enlarge the thumbnail. Am I wasting my time attempting to shoot PPB's through it? Since this is your rifle and not mine, I would try smoothing that step a little. A long boolit patched to about 0.3605" or a little less and seated firmly into the throat might work. A 40:1 alloy at the hardest. I've shot them in worse looking barrels, but those were old and smooth already.

Black Prince
10-14-2007, 08:44 PM
Okay. OKAY!!! I'm new to this paper patching stuff so whutz alla this talk of right hand and left hand patching? Whutz tha difference and why is it different and how do I tell which is a left hand patch and which is a right hand?

Geeze. Talk about the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing here. I don't know what EITHER hand is supposed to be doing.

Uhhhh . . . somma yawl know where I can get Paul Matthews book on paper patching bullets? Seems as though it's outta print when I tried to order it from Amazon tonight. Maybe after reading it, I'll know a little more about this business.

powderburnerr
10-15-2007, 12:24 AM
there are two good books out now and one is by orville loomer ,either from him or shiloh the other is a reprint of randolf wrights book by him and in an upgraded fformat. it is also available from shiloh . both books will set you back maybe 20.00 but will answer 200.00 worth of questions..............Dean

Bob B
10-15-2007, 09:46 AM
Have you tried ordering Matthews book The Paper Jacket from Harris pub.this is the co. that publishes the Handloader mag. and publishes Matthews books.Bob B