Help with 6.5x50mm Arisaka CB load

[Rogue6]

I'm new to reloading (and to this forum). I'm just reloading right now, not casting my own.

I recently acquired some 119 grain .264 diameter plain base round nose cast bullets made out of a #2 alloy for my Type 38 Arisaka. I tried an initial load of 34 grains of H4895.

It was HORRIBLE. I couldn't hit the paper at 100 yards and the rounds were landing all over the place. Factory FMJ bullets work just fine out of that rifle, consistent 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards.

Thanks for any suggestions on a better load. I looked through some old threads, but didn't really find anything on point.

[Shooter6br]

My Jap is .268 I use a Lee cruise at .270. No GC , I used 14 g 4759. Shoots beter than "J" bullets. It is no targe tgun but "minute of deer"

[madsenshooter]

I think a lot of us had made similar mistakes when it comes to the type 38 and cast boolits. First thing you should do is find out the bore diameter as they can be anywhere from .264-.268 and beyond. #2 buckshot which is .270 in diameter makes a good slug. Next is with a plain base bullet, you're not going to get going too fast. A light charge of some pistol powder or shotgun powder would be more appropriate for your plain based bullet. They'll be others along with more specific loads. Although I've had a couple 6.5 japs for years, I haven't shot them much because of my initial failures which were similar to yours, too small a bullet, too fast. Swede just fixed me up with a more appropriate mold and I'll be working on it.

[Larry Gibson]

1st; the .264 diameter ia probably .004 or so undersize. 2nd; that 34 gr load H4895 was atrociously too much for that PB'd cast bullet. I suggest 5-6 gr of Bullseye or 7-9 gr of Unique with no filler or was. Use well fire formed cases and neck size. Velocity with be 1000 0 1400 fps.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

If you are buying boolits and not casting your own, if you can find some 270 boolits you can size them down to .270ish and try them.

Hint- Gas checks make life easier.

[Rogue6]

Thanks for the advice. I based the initial load data for H4895 on a medium load for a 120 grain FMJ, and this is the first time I've loaded CBs. I guess it would make sense to use gas checks if I'm going to be shooting those, although doesn't that kind of negate some of the economic advantage of shooting CBs?

I wanted to use H4895 because of that long barrel on the Arisaka. Seems like pistol powder would burn out too early down the bore, wouldn't it?

I've never slugged a bore, but I have the instructions. Guess I'll try it and see what the actual diameter is. I can always try those bullets in my Carcano if they're just too small.

I was thinking that the load I tried was actually UNDERpowered. I had one round that resulted in some blowback from the gas vents on the upper forward receiver, and the base of that case was sooty. I thought that maybe there wasn't enough pressure to get a good seal on that one.

[madsenshooter]

You'll probably find the Carcano bore about the same size, around .268. Underpowered in terms of using for a jacketed bullet, but not for a plain base lead bullet. Pistol powders do burn out quickly, they reach the peak pressure quickly, then the remainder of the ride down the bore is the already produced gas expanding. Some of my most accurate long barreled Krag loads exit the muzzle at around 5000psi, though the peak pressure was around 35,000psi. Keep coming back and reading, it'll all soak in. Make use of the search function at the top of the page, you'll find many have been where you're at, me included.

[Rogue6]

I'm going to try Larry Gibson's recommendation above. I've got some Bullseye sitting around, so I'll see how 5 to 6 grains of that performs. Thanks, all.

[mroliver77]

The Bulls Eye is a good place to start with these boolits.

No insult intended but you really need to read up on cast boolits some. Here is a book that tells you most everything you need to know (and a whole lot more) about cast boolits.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

The latest Lee loading manual has a lot of great cast info and any of the Lyman cast bullet books have some good information.

Jay

[Rogue6]

You're absolutely right. I am brand new to reloading - whether cast bullets or any other type. Thanks for the references.

[mroliver77]

Well don't be afraid to ask. We will gently guide you down the right path. ;) A lot of info here also.
http://www.lasc.us/

Here I did a search of this forum for "arisaka". Some decent hits.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=3052861

Oh and welcome to the family. :)
Jay

[303Guy]

Welcome aboard, Rogue6.:drinks:

Now the fun begins.:mrgreen:

Fast burning powders can be fun and economical and can also be quite powerful. But there is a hazzard and a trick to overcome that hazzard. That is to have all your powdered cases standing upright in a case holder and then to inspect them all by shining a torch down them to make sure the powder levels are all the same and all where they should be. A dowel rod gauge can quickly tell if the powder level is correct. Then only start seating boolits. You see, a double charge is so easy and unnoticeable. Even a triple charge can happen. I like to use a charge that is still safe at double charge. I also like a bulky powder like AS50 - shotgun powder. It's very fast burning but quite bulky. Easy to detect a double.

Oh, an empty case is just as bad - the primer can push the boolit into the throat and you think you forgot to chamber a fresh round so you do but only now you have two boolits on top of each other. Even in target shooting situations one can get caught out like that. Just don't ask me how I know![smilie=1:

I make as many - if not more - mistakes as the average guy so I have to take extra precautions. When I found out about primers being able to dislodge a boolit (bullit actually) I was saved only by the high density powder charge I was using which prevented the second bullit from being pushed back into the case far enough to allow chambering.:violin:

[Mk42gunner]

Rogue6,

303Guy gave you some good advice about making sure you don't have a double charge. However, I must point out for our American members that he is from New Zealand, and when he refers to a 'torch' he is using what we call a flashlight. Even though we speak the same nominal language, there are different words for the same thing.

You definitely do not want a burning piece of wood around gunpowder.

Robert

[Ben]

Shooting plain based cast bullets with jacketed bullet load data tells me
that you need to get you a Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and do some reading.

If you plan on shooting cast bullets in the future, this is a " MUST HAVE".

Here it is :

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publications/cast-bullet.php

[Rogue6]

Thanks for all the information. I haven't come back to the Arisaka for a few months but it's about time that I do so. I'll check gunbroker or auctionarms to see if I can get one of those cast bullet load data manuals on the cheap.

[Bret4207]

Amazon, Ebay and the sales site here offer the Lyman books for small money too.

On the GC adding tot he cost- yeah, they do. BUT, if you want to shoot accurately at speeds over 13-1400 fps a GC makes things exponentially easier. Spend a few hours deleading a barrel some day and the GC will look like an answer to a prayer. FYI- if the cost bothers you, there are guys here selling kits to make your own GC's out of scrap material! And then if you want all the benefits of a GC w/o the cost or trouble of making your own, why there's paper patching!

Man, we got's answers for most everything around here!

[madsenshooter]

Rogue6,

303Guy gave you some good advice about making sure you don't have a double charge. However, I must point out for our American members that he is from New Zealand, and when he refers to a 'torch' he is using what we call a flashlight. Even though we speak the same nominal language, there are different words for the same thing.

You definitely do not want a burning piece of wood around gunpowder.

Robert

Reminds me of a time when I was young. I lit a match (small US version of torch) to see what was in a plastic jug. It was gasoline, no I didn't smell first. Poof! Away went my eyebrows eyelashes, and some hair on one side of my head. The now burning plastic jug went into the creek about as fast. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to live this long!

[Ed in North Texas]

Man, we got's answers for most everything around here!

Reminds me of one of my favorite routines.

Other person: "I've got a question."

Me: "I have an answer, let's see if they match."

Ed
(who is getting set up to do some Type 38 shooting - whenever it gets a mite cooler here in Texas)

[Rogue6]

Speaking of shooting the T38s... So far, the best I've been able to do with Mac "MrNambu's" factory loads is 2 MOA at 100 yds off a benchrest, which is pretty good for an 80-year-old rifle. I just reloaded some 140 gr spitzer JSPs, both boat tail and plain base, and plan to try those out pretty soon and see how they do. After reading a bunch of guys comments about load performance I'm trying a half-grain above the minimum recommended load for H4895.

But those are some spendy rounds, particularly when you're buying the factory FMJ, which is why I wanted to try cast lead. Obviously my first attempt at loading those was totally off the mark, but it seems strange to me that you'd want to want to use fast-burning pistol powder in those long barrels, which is what a number of guys recommended. Some also recommend using gas checks, but the best price I've been able to find on those is about $35 for 1,000 - is that a good price? Plus I'm not clear on exactly how the gas check and the cast boolit join together in a happy union.

FYI, I just ordered both of Lyman's two manuals on cast bullets in order to edumacate myself a bit more on the subject.

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
Some also recommend using gas checks, but the best price I've been able to find on those is about $35 for 1,000 - is that a good price? Plus I'm not clear on exactly how the gas check and the cast boolit join together in a happy union.
snip


Try clicking on the Graf's logo at the top of the page and doing a search for 6.5 gas checks. The search will return Hornady 6.5mm gas checks at $23.59 per thousand, with "shipping" a flat $4.95. I didn't check MidSouth, or Midway's prices, though you might have (should have).

You can seat gas checks with a luber (e.g. Lyman 45 series, RCBS LAM series, etc), or the Lee sizing die (the least expensive route). Boolits contributor/vendor Night Owl Enterprises also makes a gas check seater which is universal at a pretty reasonable price, particularly if you have it shipped with other items (like one of Al's excellent moulds). See the Vendor sales section for that one as I don't recollect the price.

If you want anything much over 1,000 fps, a gas check is recommended. And at the price of lead these days (free wheel weights are either gone, or going, depending on where you are) they aren't that great an expense. As others have pointed out, you can get the dies and make your own out of beer, or soda, can aluminum. Certainly that eventually would be the cheapest option, though initial cost for the die set may negate the advantage early on. IIRC Pat (What's his name - dang it there goes the CRS again - the "rock dock" guy) makes a tool for making gas checks. Again, check the vendor sales area.

Hope that helps.

[Bret4207]

Speaking of shooting the T38s... So far, the best I've been able to do with Mac "MrNambu's" factory loads is 2 MOA at 100 yds off a benchrest, which is pretty good for an 80-year-old rifle. I just reloaded some 140 gr spitzer JSPs, both boat tail and plain base, and plan to try those out pretty soon and see how they do. After reading a bunch of guys comments about load performance I'm trying a half-grain above the minimum recommended load for H4895.

But those are some spendy rounds, particularly when you're buying the factory FMJ, which is why I wanted to try cast lead. Obviously my first attempt at loading those was totally off the mark, but it seems strange to me that you'd want to want to use fast-burning pistol powder in those long barrels, which is what a number of guys recommended. Some also recommend using gas checks, but the best price I've been able to find on those is about $35 for 1,000 - is that a good price? Plus I'm not clear on exactly how the gas check and the cast boolit join together in a happy union.

FYI, I just ordered both of Lyman's two manuals on cast bullets in order to edumacate myself a bit more on the subject.

The fast pistol/shotgun type powders aren't the only answer. But since you are also talking cost, it is pretty certain that, say, 8 grs of Fast Powder that gets you 1500 fps and good accuracy will be cheaper to run than 20 grs of Slower Powder that gets you the same fps and accuracy but with a completely different pressure curve. If the cost of GC bothers you, then consider the cost of powder.

The GC and cast boolit unite in a happy union rather easily. The GC fits in a reduced diameter section at the base of the boolit and is crimped/pressed on during sizing or with a specialized tool. There are other cruder ways that are effective in a pinch too. I used GC's for 7-8 years before I got my first sizer, it can be done. The GC has multiple functions IMO. It strengthens the base beyond anything you can get with a lead alloy helping resist gas pressure and erosion, it acts as a scraper in the bore/groove, it provides a (hopefully) square and completely filled and concentric base. A GC is not a necessity as speed and pressure climb past the 12-1400 fps area, but it makes things exponentially easier. Paper patching is another option giving similar aid and reportedly even better results, but I have no real experience in that area worth mentioning, so I won't go too far into it. Worth considering at a later date though.

[mroliver77]

My need for speed diminishes as I age. These days I practice and plink with downloaded rounds. As most of my shooting is 100 yards or less these work just dandy. Being on a fixed income and naturally frugal I tend to use fast powders that take much less to get the medium speed I am looking for. Shooting is also much more pleasant with reduced report and recoil.
I have used a sheet wax to cut "cookies" by pushing the sheet over the mouth of a primed and charged case that stay against the base of the boolit. These help with shooting plain based (no gas check) boolits but only for a few more hundred fps. Larger bores seem more forgiving of plain base boolits.

One thing with the Jap guns is the bores seem to always be oversize with some grossly so. Jacketed bullets are sized .264" but many find bores .268" or more. This is one gun I would slug before trying cast in it. Slugging is not hard and will tell you what you have to work with.

Keep us updated on your progress.
Jay