41 Swiss

[Nobade]

I picked up a nice Swiss Vetterli this weekend. Planning on converting it to centerfire and shooting it, and I see quite a bit of various info out there on the web regarding these rifles. So far I have not found much info on the original round. Were they paper patched? What sort of lube/wads? What did the original bullet look like? I'd like to try to duplicate the original ammo as well as I can, and of course it's a Swiss rifle so it has to burn Swiss powder, right? If anybody has any info they'd like to share I'm all ears.
Thanks!

[Freightman]

http://www.swissrifles.com/ Look here.

[John Boy]

Nobade, call Susan @ The Single Shot Exchange ... http://www.singleshotexchange.com/
Ask her find the back article that was authored by William Roth Jr and buy it. Bill did a complete writeup on the rifle - the correct ammunition produced and test firing. Believe it was the 69/71.

[4060MAY]

Nobade
I started playing with my '69 Veterli this year
I bought the dies and brass from Buffalo Arms
Found I didn't really need the brass and dies from them
use 8mm Lebel brass form Graf, start the neck in a 44mag die till it fits in the chamber trim about .100 longer than needed about 1 .6
anneal the brass from below the shoulder, fire form using grits and fast pistol powder..trim to length..
Very important, Slug the bore, mine is .439 Groove, .420 bore.
most on the net seem to be using 44 mag bullet, too small for my gun, leaded really bad, but the group at 50yds was 4", go figure
would not hit the paper at 100yds
I have been using the Lyman 43 Spanish mold, casts right at .439 1-30 alloy..
with 48grs of FFF and a Walters .439 Veg. wad, about .100 compression the bullet slide into the case..and my homemade BP lube, no leading and soft fouling, I do wipe between shots with a rod made from nylon using a brush with a patch wetted with water and Water Sol Oil.
I made a taper crimp die to hold the bullet in place..LEE will make a factory crimp die to do the same thing
Sizing the brass doesn't need to be done once fire formed..
I have been shooting two guns, one is my 69 full military and a 69/71 that the wood was cut down on..

so far I can get groups in the 4-5" range at 100yds with battle sights, to raise the fron sight I used shrink tubing and shrunk i on the front sight squeezing it flat to make a blade, then trimming at the range till the lowet setting on the rear sight was good at 50yds
I know, I know pictures, later iff I have time
Hope This Helps

[Nobade]

Thanks for the responses! I just got some 8mm Lebel brass in from Graf last night, I'm going to cut some off today on the lathe and get this project started. Funny, the new Guns magazine came in two days ago, and it has an article on these rifles. It also answers one of my questions - did the original ammo have black powder or smokeless, and were the bullets paper patched or grease groove? Seems the answer is yes. They were both. Thanks again for the help!

[smokemjoe]

The Swiss flu is a bad then to get, I have some org. loads that were made in Milian Italy. Brass case, About 40, Ifired 10 of them and they went off, These are smokeless powder and made a loud report, The bullet on these grease rings and full of yellow wax.
Some of my old copper cases look like are paper patch. If you need any help on making a solid piece firing pin why drop me a email. Glade to hear Graft has brass again, When I was down there last year they were out , Said they have to have 250,00 to make a order up. 800 pcs. went to me in 3 years. Joe

[Nobade]

Well, yesterday I hid out in the shop and converted my new rifle to centerfire. I made a chamber cast to see what that chamber looks like. Wow, it sure isn't anything like modern designs! No end to the chamber, just tapers into the rifling. So case length is determined by what size you want the mouth to be. I chose 1.6 inches because it makes the case .433 inside, same as the groove diameter of the barrel. (.412 X .433) I figured out a neat way to trim the brass to length on the lathe by holding the rim in a collet with a stop, grabbing a gauge pin the right size in the tailstock to support the case, and using a Thinbit parting tool to cut it. Fast and easy. I fireformed the resulting cases with Red Dot and Cream 'O' Wheat, and they were ready to go.

I got home and cast up some #446110 bullets from as soft a lead as I had on hand. Don't know what it is, but it is real soft. I dip lubed them with NASA lube, and ran them through a .433" push through sizer I have. For powder I used Swiss 1 1/2F, and set the powder measure to throw a charge to the mouth of the case. It ended up being 53 grains. Then I poured that in through a 3 foot drop tube to give me some room for a bullet and seated them by hand. It worked out that the bullets were just lightly engraving the rifling as the bolt closed.

So today was the big day, let's see what she'll do. First shot at 200M hit the gong dead center! Well, we're off to a good start. Second round was a little hard to chamber, so I started using a blowtube to keep the fouling soft. No more chambering problems. After putting six rounds into maybe three inches at 200 I started working my way out to see how the load tracks with the sights. Dead on at 300, just a touch high at 385 like you'd expect, and dead on at 500. Wow, this thing works! We have some man sized torso targets on out to 751 yards, so I cranked up the sights and gave it a try. First two were within 2 feet, and the third hit it. Wow, this is cool! And it was amusing to see the angle the rifle was pointing to shoot that far. I brought it back in to 200, fired a few into the previous group, and called it a day after 25 shots fired. No wiping, just blowing between shots. Temps were in the mid 80's, and humidity below 10%. That combo of Swiss powder and NASA lube sure works, and I am really pleased with my new rifle!

Again, I want to thank everybody for their advice here. It sure saved me some time and frustration!