209 shotgun primer's in 7.62x54R?

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

I have been searching for days and cannot find what I am looking for and know I have seen the threads before, so I am in need of some guidance.

I want to make some 7.62x54 cases for light to medium cast loads (50 yards and under) for plinking in my Mosin Nagant's, but dont want to put a lot of wear on my expensive boxer primed brass.

So, I need to know what surplus cases will work to do a 209 shotgun primer conversion and any sage advice to go along. I have some Polish light ball but the berdan primers are larger in diameter than the 209's, so that doesnt look like an option, unless perhaps I could make the final opening fit using JB weld?
Drill the case to fit the 209 and then using paste wax as a release agent, seat a 209 with the JB and let it set up (the walls would be suitably degreased and roughened for good adhesion first), would that work for the mild pressures I would encounter with loads of say 10 grains Unique or similar fast powders or less?

Or, as I hope will be the case, is there any brass cased 7.62x54 ball (steel case at least) that uses a smaller berdan primer?

I am thinking of doing this with other calibers but they all take smaller berdan primers to begin with, so I wont have this issue.

Thanks in advance!

Jeff

[frankenfab]

I modified a .223 case to use 209 primers to propel .22 air gun pellets. I shot them in my 15" Encore pistol. It worked great, and the loads were accurate, but the primers quickly coated the inside of my barrel with black goo that I did not enjoy cleaning out.

[NuJudge]

All Albanian and very early Bulgarian 7.62x54R cases use .217" Berdan primers, and are brass. All other 7.62x54R uses .254" Berdan.

About 1 in 100 Albanian cases has too thick a rim, and must be sorted out, but it's otherwise pretty good stuff, but corrosive. The primer pockets on Bulgarian brass fail on about 1 out of 30 cases, letting a lot of gas back into the action, and that ammo is corrosive too.

[leadman]

JIMinPhx has done some case modification to shotgun primers. I think Buckshot has also. Might do a search on their posts.

[JeffinNZ]

I understand the idea of using a 209 as propellant as in the .223 example above but if you are still going to run a powder charge why not just use a large rifle primer? 209's must be more expensive.

[JKH]

so, Albanian brass is what I need, I'll have to post a WTB for 20 or 40.

I ran across some threads by Jim, etc. but no matter how I searched I found no threads directly related, I'll search by their usernames next.

Jeff, I only have 80 boxer cases right now & they are a bit pricey, so I figured converting berdan cases to 209's would be easiest even though 209's are more expensive. Perhaps though if I can get hold of some Abanian cases I can convert them to large rifle instead.

[SciFiJim]

Here is one method of conversion.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/25275 (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/25275)

There are a couple of other methods as well that I can't find right now.

[hornet fan]

After viewing the above link I thought it might be better the drill out the centre flash hole from the inside of the case. If you make up tooling similar to the Lee trimmers but have a drill bit in place of the centre pin that should work well enough to drill a new centre flash hole. Then follow the process of swaging the primer pocket to fit LR primers.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/97D8CFD115331D0/standard.jpg

............I converted 100 of the M31 Hungarian 8x56R cases as used in the M95 Steyr straight pull's. Case dimensions in the head and rim are almost an exact match for the Rooski. It appears the primer size in available brass will be the issue. The 209 shotshell primers worked very well and I never had any problems. That is, none you wouldn't expect. As the 209 is a shotgun primer the cup isnt designed for modern RIFLE pressures so once loads reached a certain level primer pierceing became common. No problems until loads got up to and over about 1600 fps with 200+ grain cast.

How did you plan on performing the mod?

................Buckshot

[-06]

Good article with good pics. Think I am going to put a "dimple" maker on the end of the anvil "flattener" to be an easy centering point for hand drilling. Seems worth a try. Just bothers me to trash good usable brass. They kept making references that Swiss is the preferred brass. Does not surprise me. Thanks for the info site :bigsmyl2:

[BudRow]

Light to medium casts loads will not put wear on your cases. Aquire 20 - 40 boxer cases and dedicate them to this use - I'll bet you could load them at least 50+ times by neck sizing with a Lee collet die. I think you are looking for a solution to something that isn't a problem. Boxer 7.62 X 54 are not rare or that expensive. Save the converting to shotgun primers to those cases which only can be found in berdan examples. Unless you have a lathe and a lot of time! Best Wishes, Bud

[plainsman456]

2 years ago we had a couple of weeks of howling sandstorms and looking for something to do I made up 5 or 6 casings for the 209 primer.
They were for an 8MM Mauser with 150 grain jacketed bullets as I had not started casting yet.
Like was said when you reach a certain pressure the primer does fail.These loads shot well even out to 200 yards after sighting in.
When I get a mold for the 8MM,I intend to do some testing with them.I tried some shotgun type powders first but finally went with IMR 30-31.

[JKH]

thanks for all the info guys, I have some Albanian brass on the way and hope to work on it soon.
I will try swag the primer pockets first for use with boxer LR pimers and drill central flash hole, this has worked well on some berdan primed 7.2 Nato brass with loads heavy enough to cycle my Poly M14S without leakage or loose primers. If this does not work well I will cotinue with the 209 conversion.

BudRow, not sure where you have been getting 762x54 brass but what I have seen runs about .50 apiece and invariably they are out of stock, where I live gun shops are few and far between and none carry oddball brass grantng that they carry loading components at all, I have to travel to PA to even buy black powder :^(

Buckshot, not optimum but I plan on using my dill press if I go the 209 route, any advice you can offer would be awesome!

Jeff

[303Guy]

I once modified a berdan case to accept boxer primers by drilling out the centre of the berdan primer and reaming the primer side wall with a drill bit to accept the boxer primer. I've also done the shotshell primer trick only to damage the firing pin tip from flame cutting! This with a 303 Brit and the old large berdan primed cases.

[JIMinPHX]

I converted most of my 7.62 x 54R brass to take large rifle primers by press fitting a brass ring. More on that here - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=50789.

I've also done some 209 conversions on both this caliber & some Carcano brass. It works for low pressure loads, but I think that the LRP conversion, or a SRP conversion is a better choice.

NNY headstamp 7.62 x 54R brass was the best quality that I cam across in doing my conversions, but I managed to get acceptable results from most of the Berdan brass cases that I found out in the desert, once I figured out how to remove the primer without messing up the case. I had no luck at all with steel cases.

[JIMinPHX]

Another thread you might want to read - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=86157

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

A fellow member sent me a bunch of Albanian brass cases with the smaller bedan primers to play with, nice looking brass!

I tried to hydraulically decap some, no dice, they have an anular crimp and those puppy's are in tight! I really dont want to drill through the primers as I want to be able to flatten out the anvil to fill the existing flash holes prior to drilling a new central flash hole and re-working the pocket for LR boxer primers (I may still try a few with 209's), my only issue is getting the old primers out at this point in a reasonably efficient manner.

I going for a long shot here, would one of you possibly loan or rent your RCBS berdan decapping tool to me so I can decap all these cases? I would be more than happy to pay a fair amount, trade boolits, brass, etc. I would greatly appreciate the help!

Thanks

Jeff

[NuJudge]

You can hook them out with other tools. Here is a thread:
http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/2310/An-Uninteresting-Berdan-Decapping-Tool-but-cheap

I'm sure Parashooter would be willing to eMail you the pictures that he's apparently taken down recently.

I have not noticed a crimp on my Albanian 7.62x54R, and they did not seem tight to me.

CDD

[lunicy]

I've tig welded steel cases closed (after removing the berdan primer)
Then turned it on a lathe to accept a boxer primer. And drilled a flash hole.

Yea, I get bored sometimes.

But it does work

[Patrick L]

I must ask the question; Why do this?

Other than for the knowlege gained in and of itself, what is the purpose?

[badgeredd]

JKH said:

"I want to make some 7.62x54 cases for light to medium cast loads (50 yards and under) for plinking in my Mosin Nagant's, but dont want to put a lot of wear on my expensive boxer primed brass."

So I'd guess that is your answer.

Edd

[SciFiJim]

Also, "the knowledge gained in and of itself" is worthwhile. Such knowledge can lead to areas of new exploration. As has been demonstrated here, conventional wisdom can often be wrong and there are new and better ways of doing things just waiting to be discovered.

[JKH]

adapt & overcome!:-)

I have a custom puncture & pry tool now, just needs a little refinement w/the Dremel tool, I have a case deprimed & will try swagging the pocket with the ball bearing method & size with an RCBS military primer pocket swagging/de-crimping tool after I drill the flash hole.

Another method to contemplate is using red lok tite to seal a LR primer in the pocket that is NOT swagged & just has a central flash hole drilled. I read a post where a fellow takes berdan 7.62x39 cases & does this, he is firing full power jacketed bullet loads without any primer gas leaks or primers popping out, just have to be carefull not to let the lok tite wick under the primer & into the compound or it can kill the primer. This should work very well for cast lead loads & save a few steps, I know the 7.62x39 generates less chamber pressure but is still pretty hot. I'll try 5 cases hopefully this weekend & will report back, am going to load with 10B101 :-)

[xfoxofshogo]

ok im olny going to add for i hade a m44 7.62x45r and i mod cases i shim the primer with a pice of brass tubeing form a hobby shop a few times it works good and then shot shells work but sucks

the olny thing is finding the right tube i use ss alumin and brass thay all work good you just got to play with it and the good thing a bout a m44 is its not going to brake it

[scrapcan]

There is a used berdan decapping tool at a local gunshop here, I can see if I can get it cheap and work out a dela with the OP.

Send a pm if interested.

[JKH]

PM on the way

[scrapcan]

JKH

If that one is aimed at me I will be watching for it. I will head over at lunch to see if it is still there in the used bin.

[JKH]

yes sir it is :^ ) I'll keep a look out for your message, I may be running around and out of the office for a while but can always pull it up on my phone.

Whatever style it is I am sure it will work much better than what I have devised, althogh it works it is just not as efficient, berdan's can be quite the bugger's to dig out!

[scrapcan]

I will let you know what I find.

[JKH]

xfoxofshogo (thats a tongue twister!),

What size tubing did you use? I.D., O.D. and or wall thinkness?

[xfoxofshogo]

xfoxofshogo (thats a tongue twister!),

What size tubing did you use? I.D., O.D. and or wall thinkness?

it is i.d. was .211 and o.d. neds to be .252 that way it will put presser on the case and i crimp them in the case i ues a punch and a hammer to remove the anvile and it close up the 2 flach holes so you need a .069 or close to it drill bit to dril a new one then you can de prim it with a stander set on dies

[xfoxofshogo]

i some time had to use alumin for its hard to fine the brass or ssteel in that sizs but i did have some i hade to drill out a bit for it was to thik i did use some small primers one time fo the tub fit them nice have to be the mag one if you do this in bouth small or large thay work beter and the fring pin will kill the primers in a m44 thats y shot shells are not grate

[scrapcan]

JKH,

I just got back from the gunshop here in town and the decapper and a whole lot of other used tooling was gone. Some of that stuff had been there for at least 4 years. Sorry about that, I was really hoping I could help out.

[JKH]

that's okay Manley, your a good egg! I sent you another PM

thanks for the great info xshogo!

Jeff

[xfoxofshogo]

hay you can make a decaper get a punch that fit kind tite in the case fill it with water and hit the punch make sher you have a shell holder under the case but it works or
if you got a hi psi air compreser i did that too kind fun waching them shoot a corss the shop and yes thay do sting

[olgandalf]

I'm trying to insert the cup from a spent 209 primer into the primer cup of 7.62x54. I have flattened the anvil with a drift, the way I do when I convert 8mm mauser from berdan to boxer. My problem is that the the 209 cup won't go all the way into the mosin primer cup. Do I need to remove the bottom of the mosin primer cup or drill a flash hole there (as I do on 8mm) and slice off the bottom of the 209 cup with dremel? That would be slicing off 3/16 inch off the 209 primer cup which is maybe a 32nd over quarter inch.

[I'll Make Mine]

Doing anything to the 209 primer with a Dremel seems like a very bad idea to me. Seems like an unreasonably high risk of setting the primer off while you cut it, and even then the .242" diameter 209 is too small to press into the .254" Berdan primer pocket in the 7.62x54R cases I've seen.

You need a .242" diameter hole where the Berdan anvil was to take the complete 209 primer for this conversion, along with a little counterbore to let the primer flange sit flat with the base. That's a 15/64" plus a half hair (.009, if the drill doesn't cut oversize at all), or a letter C exactly. When completed, the battery cup of the 209 will protrude inside the case; this is part of why loads for these converted cases need to be limited to low pressure, but it also makes the case very easy to decap.

The time efficient way to convert these cases, if you have more than a few to do, would be to mount the case in a lathe chuck or collet with the head exposed (body and neck inside the chuck or spindle), predrill with a center drill through the firing pin dimple (use a center punch to center up the dimple if off center) to remove the Berdan anvil, pop out the shell of the old Berdan primer, finish the hole with the letter C drill or drill 15/64 and then use a homemade reamer to bring the hole up to .242", and finally use a larger twist drill (as I recall, 21/64 at a minimum) to countersink the original pocket to provide clearance for the flange on the 209. Do each operation on all your cases, then come back to do the next, and you'll avoid spending more time changing tools than you do actually working... [smilie=1:

[olgandalf]

Thanks IMM,

The 209s I was proposing taking a dremel to were the cups of spent primers that I'd taken the primer and anvil out of. (From reloading 16 ga shells with BP using the block and washer and nail method.) But your post clears up my question about sinking the cup into the case. I don't have a lathe; I hold the case in a wooden clamp (drill hole in plywood scrap, saw in half, tighten with C clamp). Then I drill with a Sears device that mounts a hand drill as a drill press. I'll have to check my bits to see if I have a 15/64" and a 21/64".
Thanks

[DeanWinchester]

Can you not just drill and ream for a press fit and rig up a simple cap/decapping rig when using 209's? I'm thinking of reaming out a bunch of Wolf brass some can run 10.0g of unique with my cast bullet.

[I'll Make Mine]

Can you not just drill and ream for a press fit and rig up a simple cap/decapping rig when using 209's? I'm thinking of reaming out a bunch of Wolf brass some can run 10.0g of unique with my cast bullet.

Certainly, though if you're starting with Boxer primed brass this conversion makes no sense, and if you aren't the drilling isn't as simple as that (drilling from the base, you have to drill into the point of the Berdan anvil; drilling from the mouth, your bit will flex and wander into the flash holes all too frequently). With a good method of gripping the brass, you could do each step in the drill press (or even drill press stand), but the critical one is ensuring the first hole is centered, rather than skidding off the Berdan anvil; that requires a fairly stiff setup and a center drill, or a very carefully centered firing pin dimple and a drill small enough to drill into the rounded tip of the Berdan anvil as if it were flat. If you can readily decap your Berdan brass, the option exists to use a punch to flatten the anvil; that will keep the twist drill from wandering and eliminate the need for the center drill step.

[DeanWinchester]

Certainly, though if you're starting with Boxer primed brass this conversion makes no sense, and if you aren't the drilling isn't as simple as that (drilling from the base, you have to drill into the point of the Berdan anvil; drilling from the mouth, your bit will flex and wander into the flash holes all too frequently). With a good method of gripping the brass, you could do each step in the drill press (or even drill press stand), but the critical one is ensuring the first hole is centered, rather than skidding off the Berdan anvil; that requires a fairly stiff setup and a center drill, or a very carefully centered firing pin dimple and a drill small enough to drill into the rounded tip of the Berdan anvil as if it were flat. If you can readily decap your Berdan brass, the option exists to use a punch to flatten the anvil; that will keep the twist drill from wandering and eliminate the need for the center drill step.


THis wolf brass is berdan.

I figure the easiest way to do it and do it RIGHT would be to chuck it in the lathe, plunge through with an end mill, then finish ream to final ID. I have some 4 flute carbide endmills that are regrinds. They are about .175 or so.

[I'll Make Mine]

THis wolf brass is berdan.

I figure the easiest way to do it and do it RIGHT would be to chuck it in the lathe, plunge through with an end mill, then finish ream to final ID. I have some 4 flute carbide endmills that are regrinds. They are about .175 or so.

You might well be right. I've been considering making a shell mill with the correct O.D. -- easier to make than an end cutting end mill. A 5.5 mm would leave enough to ream, but even 5 mm should be good.

[MBTcustom]

I'll be dogged! You learn something new everyday around here! Very interesting.

[DeanWinchester]

Anyone have any idea what kind of pressure 10.0g of Unique makes with a 235g cast bullet in this cartridge? Considering the weakness of the 209 and all. I'm thinking it'll be just fine. That's the target load for my 209 converted brass. Usually one can't say what his final powder charge will be until after development but 10.0g of Unique seems to be the exception. Dang if it don't work in everything!

[I'll Make Mine]

The "weakness" of the 209 may or may not be an issue. Yes, it's designed for shotshells that are limited to around 15,000 psi in sensible loads -- but that limitation may not be due to the primer (shotgun barrels tend to be mighty thin compared to most rifle barrels). If you're not having trouble decapping, not seeing flattened faces or deformed battery cups on your 209 primers, you're still okay on pressure at least as far as the primers are concerned.

What you might do is try working up from a smaller amount of Unique -- perhaps 7 grains to start, should still get the boolit clear of the bore pretty positively and I'm pretty sure (short of running this through Quickload, which I don't have) that load will be below that 15,000 figure. Like most faster burning powders, Unique isn't position dependent in the case, so as long as the load doesn't risk lodging a boolit in the barrel, a low starter load isn't a bad thing.