CH AutoChamp Mk5A

[casterofboolits]

Any one else have one of these machines?

I bought mine back in the mid 80's to feed my IPSC habit. 500 1985 dollars! That's gotta be about two or three thousand 1911 dollars.

If I can keep it in time, mine produces better than 500 rounds an hour. It's been a love hate relationship for twenty five years and I think the powder system is the crux of the problem. :groner:

I totally hate the powder system and the built in shaker. Also the bushing powder drop system is a PIA.[smilie=b: I took a file to the teeth in the cam and that smoothed out the operation a bit. The shaker actually causes enough vibration to loosen up all the adjustment points causing it to get out of time. The press is mounted on a two by six tied into four by four oak legs from an old barn. they are real four by fours. It is not a flimsy bench and is eight feet long. 1/2 inch carraige bolts were used to mount the press. The two by sixes are attached with 3" deck screws. :holysheep

I'm thinking about modifying the press to take a Dillon powder measure and adding a Dillon case feeder. I think these modifications would really improve the press. The Dillon powder measure would eliminat the vibration and turn the press into a really smooth operating press.

But, that brings me up against the next major problem. The primer feed collet. The company that bought CH, no longer make parts for the AutoChamp. I have one good one and have just located a new one.

If you own one of these presses, do you think it's worth breathing new life into the AutoChamp?

[Roundnoser]

I have one in 45 ACP. Its an MK IV. -- You are right. The powder system could be improved with a Dillon case activated powder measure. I would have made this change already, but I hate the thought of modifying the original design.

Another complaint I have is that powder spills (shakes) out of the cartridge casing, when it moves from the powder/priming station over to the bullet seating station. As the rail and pawls snap back underneath the casing to their start position, the casing gets bumped. This causes some powder to shake out of the casing...not alot, but just enough to drive me crazy! I was advised to hold my finger on top of the casing as it moves to the bullet seat station, but that is a PITA....Shouldn't HAVE to do that. All in all, I do like it alot.

As for parts, I know CH4D has a supply. If you haven't already, Give them a call if you need something.

[fecmech]

I have a Mark III and a 5A. I bought the Mark 3 back in the 70's for I think $300. and the 5A a couple years ago for $180. to my door. I think they are terrific machines if you are somewhat mechanically inclined( I'm a retired A&P Mechanic) as they do require some TLC on occasion. I filed the teeth right off the cam and made it smooth like the Mark 3, is that what you are talking about when you say vibrator?? Years ago I made a bunch of bushings so I can throw just about any charge between 2 grs of BE to 15 grs of 2400. I like the powder cut off on the 5A, I had to make a blocking device to slide into my Mark 3 to change bushings.

"I was advised to hold my finger on top of the casing as it moves to the bullet seat station, but that is a PITA....Shouldn't HAVE to do that. All in all, I do like it alot."

ON my Mark 3, I mounted a rubber flap that tensions the case as it slides into position for bullet seating and that keeps the powder from coming our when the pawl flips up. I've gotten used to the finger routine now with the 5A and it's not a problem for me. I definitely plan to keep these things running, I like them!

[casterofboolits]

I called CH4D and they no longer have the primer collet and do not plan on making any more.

Yes, you have to put a finger on top of the case to prevent powder spills.

Fecmech. Yes, I took the file to the teeth on the cam. Made a much smoother handle throw. I also made a new powder bar out of Delrin as the brass bar kept jamming with spilled powder. The spilled powder just embeds in the Delrin.

Being an ex-machinist, I modified a bunch of stamping press die buttons to fit the bar and ground the I.D.'s to drop the charge I wanted. I have over thirty of them. A2 steel, 60-62 RC.

I've been cranking out 45 ACP with this press for a quarter century and want to keep it running.

I have a spare one in 45 APC on the shelf. A buddy, with poor mechanical skills, droped it off one day saying he was tired of messing with it!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have Mark 4 machine. I set it up to run .40S&W It works pretty well but it definately has some shortcomings. The powder spilling problem is a issue, and the issue with mine is it jams the primer feed when it gets filled with powder.

I run about 10 rounds and then blow everything off with an air hose. As far as I am concerned you can't run one of these machines without and air hose close by.

I had problems with not being able to get enough bell on the cases to sit the bullet on top, so I made a little tool out of delrin to hold the bullet in place over the casing while you were pulling the handle. Then I found out I had a 10MM expander plug which is too long to bell .40 cases and got the .40S&W one sent to me which fixed that problem so now I can just sit the bullet on top of the case and pull the handle.

I tried adapting a little shock absorber to the advancing slide to tone down the return stroke. Unfortunately the one I got wasn't adjustable and was too stiff so the slide wouldn't go back to home position. So that problem which causes the powder spill problem still exists. I have never been able to keep this machine running for more than 40 minutes at a time, and I know it will make some ammo, but the design has some major drawbacks. I have the case feed carosel too. Run into some periodic problems with it not dropping cases consistantly. I think the sweet spot for this machine is 45ACP. Most people I talk to that have had great success with this machine were loading .45's.

I have both sets of guide rails and a zillion powder bushings so I can load any strait walled pistol case with only dies and an expander plug (have several of those too). Luckily all the powder bushings fit my C&H 444 too.

Next to my Dillon SQB there is no comparison. The Dillon is so much more user friendly it is no contest. I just got a changeover kit to run my .40S&W's on it so I'll probably sell the C&H eventually.

Just so you dont think I'm some kind of banker or insurance saleman. I am a machinist /toolmaker with 30 years in the game, and I designed automated machines for a living when I worked for someone else. I would have never let this one get off my bench. There are several very obvious problems, that for some reason, nobody ever saw fit to fix. It's a shame too, because they are well made machines, they just never got developed fully.

[Roundnoser]

W.R. Buchanon -- FYI...If you decided to sell your Autochamp, I think Seagiant wants to purchase one.

Also, there has been talk about replacement of the "primer feed collet" (I cannot identify that part in the parts diagram). Do you know of what Casterofbullets speaks? Since you are a machinist, I'm wondering if you or others would be able to machine replacement parts that CH no longer makes for the AutoChamp. just a thought.

[fecmech]

I don't think it's the return stroke that is the problem with the powder wash out. I think that it's the advance pawl snapping up as it clears the case. I have one set up in .38/.357 and the other in .45 acp and a few years ago loaded many thousand 9MM's when I had one of them. When I load I usually have a number of bullets in my left hand and just before the bar retracts I place my finger over the powdered case. After it retracts I then just place a bullet on that case and repeat. For .38's,9MM's I use 1/2" plastic pipe for case tubes and for the .45's I use 1/2" copper pipe. When I tried using 296 and WC820 my powder bar would bind also. What I did was draw file the vertical sides of the powder measure so that the powder bar had a minimum clearance and the fine powders could not get in there to jam it up. It has worked fine since then. One other thing that helps on mine. About every thousand rounds or so I squirt a little powdered graphite on the bar where the shells come out. As the shell advances it spreads the graphite the length of the bar and a little drops on the primer slide. That seems to keep everything working smoothly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Jon: I have no idea of what the "primer collet" is?

The primers are fed out of a vertical tube into a bar that transfers the primer from under the storage tube to under the cartridge case. Then a punch comes up and seats the primer as the lever is moved back to the starting position.

A little powder is spilled when the case transfer bar rebounds and hits it's stop causing the transfer bar to jump. If this machine had a smoother way of returning the transfer bar to it's starting position than the return spring, it would not spill powder at all.

I don't like the lever which moves the transfer bar assy. It has way too low a mechanical advantage. IE: It operates in a severe "Overdrive" motion,(small amount of movement of the lever translates to large amount of motion of the transfer bar) thus all of it's motion is very jerky and impossible to regulate. The return spring has to be pretty stiff to over come the the drag of the transfer bar, so it too is hard to regulate the return motion. This is when powder is knocked out of the case. I consider this part of the machine to be the one major flaw in the machines design. Any time you have a marginal design point in a mechinism that is where your problems will all be. All of the design points have to be of similar importance to the machine , you can't have several strong points and then one that sucks. It's all got to work together at the same level or you've got a marginal design. Machines that only work right under certain specific conditions are marginal, period. It has got to function properly in a variety of circumstances to be a good design. Otherwise it shouldn't be sold. Been there done that 100 times.

The rest of the machine operates on proven mechanical solutions for many different reloading machines. The powder drop system is used on many machines, the primer system is used on many machines, the presses main up and down function is from a common Die Shoe used on punch presses. None of this is either new or unusual, in fact it is sound machine design. The problem lies in the advance mechinism.

I had looked at using an air cylinder to move the transfer bar assy, instead of the mechanical lever on the left end of the machine, as you could control the rate at which the slide moved in both directions easily. Down side would be having to have air on the machine, up side is you could control the motion more precisely, and could also divert some air to blowing any powder out of the mechinism or under the powder measure on every stroke, which would keep the machine running longer between crashes. This is but one solution, and it may or maynot work very well.

I have not experienced any problems with powder hangups at the actual powder measure due to powder size. Like I said that same mechinism is used on a variety of presses most notably the Pacific/Hornaday 366 shotshell loader.

Now that I have the right expander, it is still in the case when the powder drops, so I don't loose any there anymore. I have only used W231 on mine, but that is close to W296 in grain size isn't it? I don'[t know how it would treat other powders like flake style powders. Still the slide on mine and the bushings all fit well enough so it shouldn't be much of a problem. The 366 loader's powder drop uses a rubber washer like a hose bib washer to act as a scraper on top of the powderbar. This prevents any powder flakes from being let loose into the works by effectively sealing it. It works perfectly on the 366 and I never see any loose powder on it until I miss a primer then it is all over the place. None of these machines can live without an air hose in close proximity.

Lots of things you could do, now if we can only find a good reason to do them? This the exact reason why they don't produce this machine anymore. It can't compete with more advanced designs that have none of these problems. That and $30k per year for the liability insurance for that product alone. There wasn't $30K in profit to even pay the insurance for this product, so down it went. Surprisingly Dave told me the biggest problem he had with customers complaints was them pinching their fingers when placing the bullets and pulling the handle. Anyone who has run one of these machines knows they will bite if you don't pay attention.

Randy

[fecmech]

Jon:


Now that I have the right expander, it is still in the case when the powder drops, so I don't loose any there anymore. I have only used W231 on mine, but that is close to W296 in grain size isn't it?

Randy

231 is a much more coarse powder than 296 or wc820, I had no problems with any powder other than those 2. A primer collet is only used on the 5A (I think) as the primer storage tube rides on the upper platen and transfers primers on the down stroke to the slide bar. My mark 3 has the tube on the lower platen and does not use the collet.

[casterofboolits]

The 5A has the primer feed system at the front on the upper platen and transfers primers on the down stroke. My buddy had one of the CH machines with the primer feed in the rear. One day, the primer feed blew up and left him looking like he had chicken pox!

He ended up with one of the early Dillon 1050's.

[fecmech]

The 5A has the primer feed system at the front on the upper platen and transfers primers on the down stroke. My buddy had one of the CH machines with the primer feed in the rear. One day, the primer feed blew up and left him looking like he had chicken pox!

He ended up with one of the early Dillon 1050's.

I think that was the idea behind the 5A, to separate the main tube from the slide bar when it moves. That's when a primer may be crushed and explode. On the 5A there is only 6 primers in the tube connected to the slide bar. Any time I'm loading I make sure the blast tube is in place and I don't ever force the handle!
The Dillons can do it too I believe, I think I read of an incident with a Dillon the High Road where a guy put about a 100 primers in his ceiling a while back.