Veral at LBT's ideas on hunting bullets?

[Canuck Bob]

I read alot that Veral writes and he is convinced that WFN bullets are deadliest at reduced velocities. He has a formula using the meplat diameter but basically for a 44 bullet he puts the best range around 1600 fps. Weight has to do with penetration. In my case he recommended app. 1600 fps with a 300 WFN for optimum killing power. It was in the context of developing a good camp protection round for a 444.

Just thought I'd ask what others think of his idea. On another forum there are some happy hunters who agree with his ideas.

I notice that many handgun hunters use loads like these and report outstanding results. Anyone ever drop the hammer on a moose or elk with loads like these?

[RobS]

With the proper alloy this equation would work well. I would go with WW-Lead with some tin or equivelant that is water quenced so as to make a boolit that is ductile yet has some expansion (not a lot) to assist the already large meplate in order to slow the boolit down which will create more dwell time once the boolit makes contact. Should make a good wound channel from 50 yards and beyond.

[MtGun44]

There is some evidence, although the mechanism defies logical explanation that I have
heard, for optimum penetration coming at 1600-1800 fps with a Keith or LBT or similar
FP boolit. Higher and lower velocities seem to actually reduce penetration, which is not
expected.

The CorBon Penetrator 405 non-expanding jacketed FP .45-70 has been documented in
substantially out penetrating all of the conventional African calibers, loaded with soft points
and with RN FMJs. Whether this is some anomoly or an actual and consistent effect is not
yet proven, IMO. There is some evidence that the FPs go straighter and yaw less than
RN designs, and also the higher velocity may cause yawing instability in meat, too. It is
possible the since the factory African loads are almost 100% loaded with RN designs, that
this may account for the experimental discrepancy. Until we see .460 Wby and .458 Win
Mag & Lott ammo with FP FMJ ammo, we will not have solid info. It may be as simple as
the hydrodynamic stability of a RN vs FP design in a semifluid evironment like meat, with
possibly the RN yawing and reducing penetration where the FP stays straight and drills on
through. Still unproven, but there is a significant body of field reports where the FP designs
have done spectacular penetration at moderate velocites. There are reports of African
PHs with considerable experience with the serious 'elephant gun' calibers in Cape Buff
being quite surprised at FP .45-70 penetration using ammo from several suppliers,
Cor Bon and Garrett are notable.

There is absolutely no question that 1600-1800 fps heavy weight FP designs like Keith
and LBT will penetrate extremely deeply, exiting in most shots on most game. Very few
are ever recovered. Even handgun velocities in the 1000-1400 fps range gives amazing
penetration.

Bill

[leadman]

I shot an elk at 75 yards with the Lee 310gr RFN in 44 cal. out of a Ruger SBH revolver. Velocity was only 1,150 fps and it penetrated all the way thru broadside. With a heavy boolit I think high velocity is not needed within reason.

This load would allow hits pretty consistently on a 12" plate at 200 yards. This was off the bench with iron sights.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I talked to Veral Smith about this very subject about 3 years ago. This was a lengthy discussion as I'm sure any of who who have spoken to him on the phone know, and you shouldn't call him on a pay phone unless you have a big bag of quarters with you. :CastBoolitsisbest:

We were talking specifically about .44 and .45-70 type bullets. I can't remember if he said it was his personal tests or Ross Seyfields personal tests with 45-70 with WFN 405gr bullets at 1600-1800 fps yeilded 48" of penetration in wet newsprint. The same bullet at 2150 from a .458 mag yeilded only 44" of penetration. This stuck in my mind.

The reasoning was that the bullet with the higher speed was actually setting up a pressure or shock wave in front of it that was impeding it's penetration. The slower bullet did not create as big a pressure wave in front of it and as a result still had sufficient momentum to penetrate deeper. This is because the momentum was not being bled off as fast by trying to overcome the shock wave of smaller size than the faster bullet generated. Makes sense?

It is common knowledge that these types bullets from a 45-70 loaded to 1800 fps wil go completely thru virtually any animal on this planet. I read a story and then verified it by actually talking to Dave Scoville that he had shot a cow elephant with a .475 Turnbull M86 and the bullet went in between the eyes, and exited at the base of the tail. They measured 11 feet of wound channel total and never found the bullet !!! Solid brass 400gr with a .375 meplat.

I think it is safe to say that unless you are hunting the big 6, a .45-70 load or for that matter a .44mag load that is running 300-400gr at 1600 fps will kill anything made of meat in the US and probably do a pretty good job of some of the larger japanese cars too.

Whereas I don't have any direct personal experience shooting elk, I have read many times where a 300gr slug from a .44 revolver has gone clean thru and elk at 1000-1100 fps. From a rifle the same slug would probably go thru three of them.:holysheep

It constantly amazes me how one of the first centerfire cartridges (138 years old now)can still perform right up there with the new stuff. Cast lead bullets appear to perform much more effectively on game than many jacketed bullets do so I figure we all should just cast all our own Boolits from now on! :lovebooli

Randy

[onesonek]

I agree with you about the quarters Randy!!
In addition,,,, from what I gathered from him. How he actually came about it, I'm not certain. I can only hazard a guess it comes years experience and meticulous taking of notes on observation's. Likely both personal and those of others using certain designs in cast boolits.
But what he told me he uses for a formula is as follows,,, meplat diameter divideded by 4 X impact velocity. He said it is best to keep that number between 100 and 130 with FP cast at your expected distance.
It sounded like he tends to water drop most everything with ww alloy, resulting in a boolit that won't deform much if any when if bone is struck. That's not saying he aims for bone in all cases, or on purpose unless he needed a anchoring shot.
He said he got far less run response, and most critters just stood there, or take a step or 2 wondering WTH, then the collapsed in a matter of a few seconds after impact. But noted the formula tends to work better with .40 cal. and above, with non expanding type boolits.
I could go into detail of his thoughts on the how's and why's of the matter, but I won't. I will say, a lot of it makes sense in a bio mechanics sort of way. I can't say I have tried his methods as of yet on purpose, but had witnessed it some years back where the methodolgy of it wasn't the understanding or objective. It just sort of turned out that way. In that case thinking back, there seems to be some merit in his formula.

[btroj]

Main thing I took out of it is the idea that more velocity does not alway equal more Seems counter intuitive but it does seem to work.
Was not aware of the meplat/4*impact velocity formula. Will need to investigate that one and see where my current hunting loads fit.
If nothing else Veral has increased the overall knowledge on cast by increasing discussions. Like him or hate him he has brought up many points for debate.

[bearcove]

your choice should do the job on anything up there.

[44 flattop]

I've killed quite a number of elk with .44's, mostly handguns but about a 1/2 dozen with .44 rifles. 300's at 1100 to 1200fps will always exit in my experiences, 270's at 1200 also always exit. But then from a rifle a 300gr at 1400fps will break bones and exit!

I'm a big fan of a good sized bullet at a moderate velocity for shooting game with the best results. For hunting I use either straight WW's or 75/25.

44

[PAT303]

I remember when I first started casting having a box filled tightly with news print to catch my boolits and the lee 90grn swc's out of my 303 doing 1400fps sailed right through it.My 8x57 has no trouble sending Lee maximums doing 1800fps through both shoulders on camels,the lightest weighing a tonne easily. Pat

[303Guy]

PAT303

May I ask what the weight of those 8mm boolits are? (And the style and alloy?)

[DIRT Farmer]

Reguarding onesonok's comment, about moderate volicity. When I started hunting deer with round ball speed was the name of the game and I spent a lot of time tracking deer I had shot. In a campfire conversation an old timer whose family had never went to cartridge guns told me to drop my powder charge in a fifty to give a volicity of around 1200 to 1300 fps. All but one deer (20 +) that I have taken loading this way have looked up at the shot, some have gone back to eating before stifning and falling, never moving more than one or two steps. My question would be is there an optimual speed and use more weight for penatration?

[Lloyd Smale]

I wont argue here with veral. Hes not here to respond and ive argued enough with him where he could. Ive shot at least as much game as he has with cast bullets and probably bigger animals to boot. Ive seen no diffence in killing power between lfns wfns and swcs with equal hits. As a matter of fact i just dont see how a guy can really make that determination. Every animal you shoot dies a bit differnt. Ive shot deer in the vitals with 300 mags that have run off and died. As to penetration, ive done as much penetration testing as anyone. Sure its not identical to animals but it allows you to compare alloys bullets and velocitys. In our testing peak pentrations comes at about 1300 fps and definately starts dropping off at 1400. That is even more prevelent with wfns compard to lfns and swcs with there smaller metplats. To increase pentration past what your getting at 1400 you need to increase bullet weight. Anohter problem you run into is alloys. Harder is lighter so you loose there and theres just not an alloy thtats tough enough to not deform when hitting bone at speeds any faster. At least not every time. Deform a bullet in any way and penetration suffers. Now if you want deforming bullets like a soft point hp ect thats differnt. there you have to ballance penetration with expansion and it some cases that extra speed does help especially at longer ranges. But veral doesnt push expansion. Hes one that believes in bullets holding there shape and pentrating. Like my thoughts verals are just his opinion. Hes not a god. Theres many here that have more actually field experince as he does and just lack his ability to draw a following like some kind of cult leader. Dont get me wrong i too think that veral has helped casters. Hes casting book is hands down better then the lyman or any of the ohter outdated books and 20 years ago he probably was first word in casting knowlege but many of his ideas have been put to rest buy guys here. QUOTE=Canuck Bob;1254573]I read alot that Veral writes and he is convinced that WFN bullets are deadliest at reduced velocities. He has a formula using the meplat diameter but basically for a 44 bullet he puts the best range around 1600 fps. Weight has to do with penetration. In my case he recommended app. 1600 fps with a 300 WFN for optimum killing power. It was in the context of developing a good camp protection round for a 444.

Just thought I'd ask what others think of his idea. On another forum there are some happy hunters who agree with his ideas.

I notice that many handgun hunters use loads like these and report outstanding results. Anyone ever drop the hammer on a moose or elk with loads like these?[/QUOTE]

[44man]

Veral does make good points but I don't agree with a hard boolit that fast unless distance to the animal is far or the animal is large.
I just hunt deer and have had very, very poor results with HARD 320 to 420 gr WLN and WFN boolits at over 1600 fps from my 45-70 BFR.
RobS said it the very best! :drinks:
The boolit MUST upset, slow down and gain dwell time because the flat nose creates a pressure wave that moves tissue out of the way in a large secondary wound channel that collapses after boolit passage. Opening a deer with a double lung shot from a hard boolit has shown intact lungs with a primary hole only. They die but go to far with a poor to no blood trail.
Taking the same boolit down to about 1350 fps will turn internals to mush with instant kills and or huge blood trails.
Going down to about 1150 fps again slows death and I feel a little expansion is again needed to widen the primary wound channel.
Deer hit with 1150 fps actually show much more internal damage then one hit at 1630 fps.
Full penetration is always best but depending on the velocity, distance and size of the critter, you must make the boolit do the work while inside before exit. One alloy does not fit all.
Over expansion is no good and is much worse.
Now the good part, LBT's are not that hard and can deform, upset a little and turn in an animal if one side of the nose gets deformed.
They average 15 BHN and will upset enough at 1600 fps to enlarge the wound channel. They are softer then what I use at 1350 fps.
All these velocities have merit and work as long as it's affect requirements are matched to what you hunt and the average distance.
The Cast Performance LBT's are great with good accuracy and work over a good range.
I use harder because most of my boolits are PB and all I need is a softer nose.
If I used the LBT alloy, a 50-50 or 75-25 for the nose and my alloy for the rest of the boolit, my velocity range would increase without an accuracy loss.
My results are from deer only and you will not believe how easy it is to poke a useless hole through them or blow them to pieces with just an alloy change. :mrgreen:
Shooting into soaked phone books and paper with a .475 using a 420 gr LFN Buffalo Bore gave 21" of penetration.
My 420 gr WFN went 37".
The BB had to go to a 440 gr to reach 33".
A 400 gr XTP only did 12".
A BB 410 only made 19".
A .44, 265 gr RD went 33".
What does that tell you for hunting?----NOTHING AT ALL!

[mdi]

Excellent discussion. Now if I can just remember the details...

[MT Gianni]

Lloyd when you talk velocity vs penetration are you talking muzzle vel. or impact?

[fisheadgib]

Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges wrote a blurb on his wesite about some penetration tests that he did comparing the 45-70, 458win mag, and the 458 lott. In wet newsprint, the 45-70 at 1500fps penetrated deeper than the other two with the same bullet weight at higher velocities.

[warf73]

Shooting into soaked phone books and paper with a .475 using a 420 gr LFN Buffalo Bore gave 21" of penetration.
My 420 gr WFN went 37".
The BB had to go to a 440 gr to reach 33".
A 400 gr XTP only did 12".
A BB 410 only made 19".
A .44, 265 gr RD went 33".
What does that tell you for hunting?----NOTHING AT ALL!

Info like this tells me one thing, if any of these loads were accurate they would have been deadly on alot of game here in the US.

We have all seen great hits on animal and the said game runs off 20 or 200 yards and dies. You find it and cut it open and the boiler room (heart / lung cavity) complety exploded into small pieces. Then next time get a so so hit and the animal falls were it stood, and upon opening it up the heart is fine but the lungs were junk. That being said each animal is just that an "animal" and each will die differently no matter how hard we try to blow them out of there skins.

[Canuck Bob]

Thank you all.

Very informative to a Canadian because we can't handgun hunt but I did hunt deer years ago with a Ruger 44 auto rifle. It was deadly at my closer ranges. I'm interested by LBT thoughts but not completely sold by any means. My experience is with 444 Hornady and the old Remington 265 bullets at higher speed on moose.

My last moose was a big bull and at 175 real paces on a cutline the bullet through and throughed on a slight quartering broadside. I remember pushing 3 fingers into the exit wound and the moose ran about 20 yards before piling up dead.

I'm still wondering if a 300 gr cast at 2000 fps in a 444 wouldn't whack pretty hard?

[PAT303]

PAT303

May I ask what the weight of those 8mm boolits are? (And the style and alloy?)

Mate they are right on 250grns checked and lubed.I only use soft alloy,WW/pure lead mixed 50/50.I sometimes squench them out of the mold but mostly AC them. Pat

[303Guy]

Thanks PAT303.

DIRT Farmer, that's interesting information! You're a minefield of knowledge! (And yes, the 'minefield' error was deliberate! :mrgreen:)

Hey, you guys have so much knowledge and experience to share!:drinks:
I hope y'all are writing things down. (I used to listen to my Uncle for hours about hunting and guns and stuff - he was from the old Rhodesia in Africa - and he was an armourer in North Africa in WWII and became a gun-builder afterward).

[Lloyd Smale]

muzzle velocity.
Lloyd when you talk velocity vs penetration are you talking muzzle vel. or impact?

[Lloyd Smale]

44 man your penetration data tells you alot actually. Sure it isnt going to show you EXACTLY how the bullet would react to living flesh. Theres alot of differnce between the the flesh of a whitetail and that of a hog or a bear or a bison . But it will tell you how your bullet and load compares to anohter. Ive done enough penetration testing and hunting to know that a bullet that performs well in a penetration test usually penetrates well on live flesh and the ones that do pourly in testing usually do pourly in the field. Weve also found that combining wet news print and actualy fresh bone does give a fairly close comparison if you use bone from the same animal your going to hunt. It isnt scientific but what is when it comes to cast bullets? My opinion on bullet speed varys a bit from yours. I dont think a bullet that is going say 1500 fps causes less damage. It may not penetrate as deaply or as straight but if it does it usually kills as well as then 1200fps load will but not really any better. Im not a big believer in wound channels to judge the killing effect of a bullet. Animals die in two ways blood loss and shutting down the central nervous system. Many times a large wound channel will blead less then a smaller one. Take bow hunting for example. theres been studies on wounded soldiers that showed that tramatic wound channels cause the body to go into shock and actually bleed less. THe other way to kill is to hit the nervous system. For the most part if you do that it doesnt matter what size bullet or power level as long as its got enough steam to drive deap enough to hit what your target is. Dumping a bunch of energy in an animal doesnt do much. How many of us have shot deer with a 300 mag and watched them run off? Making sure your bullet drives deep enough to hit the vitals (heart lungs ect) and doing enough damage when they get there to insure a quick kill is what you need. Thats why most of us who have shot alot of game with cast bullets know that for the most part a good lfn or wfn or swc kills just as well as a cast or jacketed hp and in most cases just as good as your centerfire rifle and in the case of real big game probably kill better then your centerfire rifle. Why? PENETRATION

[onesonek]

As Louis L'Amour once scribed,,,"there is nothing secure this side of the grave", so is with hunting, there are no absolutes. We can argue, discuss, and contemplate the merits of particular load qualities or the lethality thereof, until the end of time. There are load combinations that are not the best, and then those that work reliably well. Seldom will any 2 results will be identical in the field, even if using the same load. But put a good load combination into the vitals, most generally the end result will be the same,,,meat in the freezer.
I agree with a lot of what you state however Lloyd, animals react and die differently, but I believe a lot of the time or reaction involved there, depends on the state of the animal. For example, one that is spooked, has higher levels of adrenaline flowing, making non CNS hits, not as quick as one relaxed.

"Animals die in two ways blood loss and shutting down the central nervous system. Many times a large wound channel will blead less then a smaller one. Take bow hunting for example. theres been studies on wounded soldiers that showed that tramatic wound channels cause the body to go into shock and actually bleed less."

This I also agree with. The second sentence, is also what Veral said, albeit he added (correct or not) his thoughts as to why, in regards to the bio-mechanics involved. I also agree a fair amount of penetration is required, and is key in most instances. I have been a firm believer in having enough mass and momentum, and is also the reason I tend to hunt with heavy for caliber, even with J's. I would rather have a bullet/boolit doing similar damage on the far side, nearly as well as the first few inches of impact

[44man]

Much of this is true. Too much tissue destruction will leave jagged edges that seal fast where a clean cut will keep bleeding. Both kill but the clean cut leaves a better trail and quicker blood loss.
However, I will never believe in energy figures or energy dump junk.
I do believe in boolit action while it is passing through an animal and I don't care if the boolit has a million pounds of energy left after it leaves the animal. It can go to China for all I care as long as it did the deed in my deer first.
Lloyd, you forget I am an archer with hundreds of kills.
Boolits must do something because there are no razor blades on them. That means some energy applied to tissue to disrupt and damage it.
Boolit energy is our friend but it can also be an enemy. We must learn to use it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

MDI: Refer to thread entitled "Knowing versus Understanding", lower in this category.

It will help you remember what you read.

Randy

[Canuck Bob]

Mate they are right on 250grns checked and lubed.I only use soft alloy,WW/pure lead mixed 50/50.I sometimes squench them out of the mold but mostly AC them. Pat

Thats some serious weight per caliber. The SD must be high.

What would an Aussie use such a gun on? I know you got some Buffalo any other big stuff other than some of the largest crocodiles I've ever seen on TV! I watched a guy build a trap for one that was the size of a motorhome.

[Canuck Bob]

A doctor responded to this question on Veral's threads once. He discussed what others above have indicated.

He was convinced that the heavy slower bullet formed a channel that caused immediate blood pressure drop and then massive bleeding. He thought other styles of terminal ballistics did cause animal systems to react to the trauma and restrict bleeding and then the adrenilin kicks in.

Sure seems to sound like my experience with big whitetails on the Saskatchewan prairies. I used a 243 BLR for awhile and just never saw the anchoring that my 444 gave. It is interesting that the 240 gr loads from the 444 damaged far less meat but sure was effective at DRT.

[BAGTIC]

I believe, remember the Constitution acknowledges the right to believe based purely on faith and without proof, ...

The reason round balls may be more effectice at reduced velocities is that they are commonly made of soft lead alloys that expands at high impact velocities thereby reducing sectional density and penetration.

The same would apply to conical bullets that expand or deform.

The pressure wave formed by flat noses is the reason they can cut larger than caliber wounds. I can not think of any physical rationale for high velocity FP to produced narrower wound channels. Consider the very large albeit shallow wounds produced by high velocity lightly constructed bullets. These huge cavities are produced by hydraulic shock waves that extend far beyond the dimensions of the bullet itself.

To believe otherwise would almost require one to believe that an ice tray of hot water would freeze faster than a tray of room temperature water because the greater the temperature difference the greater the rate of heat loss.

[Canuck Bob]

Beartooth has a calculator that shows escalating power with escalating velocity and weight. The steps are rated whitetail to elephant! The terminal ballistic might change but big fast FN bullets have got to deliver some serious hurt. The tumbling issue might be important but I have zero knowledge when power levels get this high.

My most powerful rifle was a Ruger #1 with the loooong throat in 375 H&H. With stoked 300 grainers it was formidable indeed. If I still hunted like then i would be tempted to own another.

Personally there is a practical limit on my needs. If a 300 gr 444 hard cast won't kill it I can't afford to hunt it because its a 20 hour plane flight away.

I must admit to losing interest in 450 gr bullets moving along around 1800 fps or 300 gr above 2400 fps or better. I understand guys wanting to maximize thier iron but its nice to know there are alternatives that don't involve dental work.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
This is one of the best threads I have read in a while.
I truly enjoyed reading it.
The bow hunting comments are a bit obtuse, so please explain, velocities are extremely different, yet penetration is similar. Arrows cut, as knives, long wounds equaling big blood loss, yet are not known to produce DRT effect. But knife wounds can produce DRT effect.
Bullets can shred internal organs inches away from the wound channel, yet with cast sometimes you can eat right up to the hole.
All food for thought.:Fire::Fire:

[44man]

HI,
This is one of the best threads I have read in a while.
I truly enjoyed reading it.
The bow hunting comments are a bit obtuse, so please explain, velocities are extremely different, yet penetration is similar. Arrows cut, as knives, long wounds equaling big blood loss, yet are not known to produce DRT effect. But knife wounds can produce DRT effect.
Bullets can shred internal organs inches away from the wound channel, yet with cast sometimes you can eat right up to the hole.
All food for thought.:Fire::Fire:
Bow hunting has gone downhill with the super fast bows and arrows so light that they stop dead without penetration.
The arrow is like a big revolver boolit and must have weight so the heaviest arrow that will tune is always best no matter what the velocity is. The broad head must be large with a good cutting area just like a WLN or WFN boolit. The boolit will impart energy but the arrow will cut and no amount of a loss of penetration should be tolerated.
A heavy arrow from a stick bow can blow through an animal at 180 fps but the new archers and the 3D shooters think a needle at warp speed will work. Some of the new broad heads are minimum for a rabbit yet they shoot at elk with them.
Archery hunting the proper way is real close to revolver hunting and the same considerations are close.
After hundreds of bow kills, I find some stuff does not work well and will never go to the new junk but if I was to afford the crazy prices of a new bow, I would be looking for real heavy arrows and good broad heads just like I look for a good revolver boolit at the right velocity.
Doing both, I feel there is a kinship!

[white eagle]

I have switched to a recurve for that reason
hunting is hunting not shooting
getting close and personal is key to a hunter

[GabbyM]

Veral has some good ideas. However I get turned off when anyone pushes a product in a way that implies if you don’t use this and do it my way you aren't doing it right. More than one way to make a hole.

[RobS]

Veral is a salesman for sure and can rub a bit the wrong way for some people's liking. The molds I received from him are great and the last one we haggled over regarding the design but was was probably my best LBT shooter. I've since used other mold makers and some of it has to due with less expense but also due to the fact I don't have to work as hard to get the design I want. I will say though Veral is very knowledgeable in his work, I just have a few different ideas with my design concepts.

[GabbyM]

Henry Ford said you can have any color you want as long as it's black. i.e. Model T

[RobS]

Henry Ford said you can have any color you want as long as it's black. i.e. Model T

[smilie=l: is all I have to say

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I too have bow hunted, recurve bow. Only 1 deer shot, so am not as experienced.
prefer muzzle loader .
Thanks for clarifying,44 man, I had thought that that was what you were getting at.

Really appreciate the comments on elk with pistols. :Fire::Fire:

[Piedmont]

I sure don't hang on Veral's every word but he is always worth listening to. He has a good article on hollowpoints in an old Fouling Shot before he started mould making. He really liked the HPs. It has me wondering if maybe he didn't want to make HP bullet moulds, so he decided to sell meplats instead.

[MT Gianni]

muzzle velocity.

I suspect from what little I have seen of Michigan you are shooting @ 100 yds or less? I'm just trying to get a handle on your impact velocity. Thanks in advance.

[Lloyd Smale]

most deer ive shot have been in the 50 yard range. some out to a 100 and rarely over that.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I to Have read Veral"s little book, & believe he deserves both our respect & thanks for his work.:Fire::Fire:

[44man]

I believe, remember the Constitution acknowledges the right to believe based purely on faith and without proof, ...

The reason round balls may be more effectice at reduced velocities is that they are commonly made of soft lead alloys that expands at high impact velocities thereby reducing sectional density and penetration.

The same would apply to conical bullets that expand or deform.

The pressure wave formed by flat noses is the reason they can cut larger than caliber wounds. I can not think of any physical rationale for high velocity FP to produced narrower wound channels. Consider the very large albeit shallow wounds produced by high velocity lightly constructed bullets. These huge cavities are produced by hydraulic shock waves that extend far beyond the dimensions of the bullet itself.

To believe otherwise would almost require one to believe that an ice tray of hot water would freeze faster than a tray of room temperature water because the greater the temperature difference the greater the rate of heat loss.
It is a strange thing to see what a too fast FP does in a deer. Since deer are rather small, the hard boolit zips through just leaving a hole in the lungs. I have lost several and those I found went 200 or more yards with sad blood trails. 317, 330 and 378 gr WLN and WFN boolits at about 1630 fps.
I can not say what 1800 fps + would do or what a very large animal would have for damage as the boolit slows in passage.
As I soften the boolits, damage increases until one can reach total, irrational meat destruction.
The only way I can explain it is when the HARD, flat nose is too fast, the pressure wave off the nose shifts forward and forces tissue out of the way in a large secondary wound channel that collapses leaving a much smaller primary wound channel. All the deer I opened and inspected had a boolit diameter hole through the lungs with no surrounding damage, looked like a sharp stick poke.
The same boolit at 1350 fps turns lungs and heart to mush.
Take the same hard boolit down to 1100 fps or a little more and internal damage again has shown less damage but I can say for a fact, it is more then the faster boolit so the .45 Colt works far better then the 45-70 until I soften for some expansion.
There is no free lunch and my figuring is from doing a necropsy on many, many deer.
Yes, if the deer were hit in both shoulders, results would change as would a large animal so the boolit can slow for better "Dwell time."
I also would expect the hard fast boolit would work better at long range like 200 yards but I do not shoot any animal past 100, give or take a few yards.
Actually, a softer boolit with a little expansion would work better in every revolver but I do not want to give up accuracy.
Hard works just fine at around 1350 fps.
I had the same thoughts about the hard, WD, WW WLN and WFN, thinking faster would be better but I was proven wrong, change the alloy and a boolit can do anything at any velocity.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
That is what Veral says also. It is so contrary to what I have read over the years, but both you 44man & he have shot many more deer than I.
This is because even in the late 1960's the gun industry ,writers, were following the path of worshiping high velocity, & jacketed bullets .
Larry & Llloyd say similar things, and I have a feeling they also have a much greater than average level of experience hunting with cast successfully on a wide range of species.
All the Deer & elk I have shot with Cast boolits have been with Muzzle loaders, 45 cal up to 58 cal. So I do not Know if that really applies here, but a velocity of 1600'/s would be unusual.
So I for one am rethinking my past approaches to pistol loads.:Fire::Fire:

[onesonek]

44man,,"The same boolit at 1350 fps turns lungs and heart to mush. "

This is what Veral also said, that a factor of 120 using his formula for impact, would be ideal.
The above statement, would fall right in there figuring a meplat in the .350"- .360" range.

[firebrick43]

Interesting. I have used his 300 grain .45 bullet in both warm ruger only loads at ~1250 fps and in sabot rounds over 150 grains of 777 in a TC encore .50 muzzle loader, which if I recall correctly is over 2400fps. I have killed more with the TC and it does very well, never retrieved a bullet.

The ruger was instant death however. One shot thru the lungs, when gutted their was nothing in the chest cavity remotely identifiable, just liquified mush running out. Another round went in the back left rump and exited the front shoulder in a 175 pound buck. The left rear rump was ruined, kidneys/lever mush(still could sort if identified) front shoulder blade penitrated.

Never understoodwhy terminal ballistics seamed better with the same but slower bullet

[44man]

Interesting. I have used his 300 grain .45 bullet in both warm ruger only loads at ~1250 fps and in sabot rounds over 150 grains of 777 in a TC encore .50 muzzle loader, which if I recall correctly is over 2400fps. I have killed more with the TC and it does very well, never retrieved a bullet.

The ruger was instant death however. One shot thru the lungs, when gutted their was nothing in the chest cavity remotely identifiable, just liquified mush running out. Another round went in the back left rump and exited the front shoulder in a 175 pound buck. The left rear rump was ruined, kidneys/lever mush(still could sort if identified) front shoulder blade penitrated.

Never understoodwhy terminal ballistics seamed better with the same but slower bullet
Remember I am shooting revolvers and stated I have no idea with rifle velocities will do.
But what you add means a lot and is important. Please add to this because we all need to know what everything does.
I have also found it strange that too much velocity with harder boolits can do less damage.
Increase velocity and also expansion and all bets are off.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I forgot to say I have had 2 Mule deer , 1 shot, DRT kills with the Lyman version Kieth 250 gr. gc. of of a Ruger SBH 44 mag. which I regrettably sold. Both under 100yds. ,maybe 75yds. Pushed fast , I think with 22grs. of 2400, 7&1/2 " barrel.:Fire::Fire:

[44man]

HI,
I forgot to say I have had 2 Mule deer , 1 shot, DRT kills with the Lyman version Kieth 250 gr. gc. of of a Ruger SBH 44 mag. which I regrettably sold. Both under 100yds. ,maybe 75yds. Pushed fast , I think with 22grs. of 2400, 7&1/2 " barrel.:Fire::Fire:
You were in the zone! Sad to sell off a great gun but I have had to do it too. I have one old one left. It is a Browning superposed, 20 GA that I gave the wife long ago. Money will not buy it. She would kill me! [smilie=l:

[truckjohn]

Well... The "Worshiping" of higher velocities absolutely makes sense when you are talking really long shots - which many of the gun writers were doing.... It's fun to talk about 350 yard shots on Prarie dogs or 500 yard shots on Elk.... The glut of mil-surp rifles and surplus ammo on the market made it easy..... Most of those WWI and WWII Mil rifles were sighted at between 350-600 yards.... and a Large Ring mauser action takes a pretty big wildcat cartridge....

Unfortunately, writing a bunch about shorter range work or talking about shooting where there's pretty high population density (Like the countryside on the north-eastern seaboard) isn't particularly interesting... and there's a lot of liability involved..... and think of the uproar if a Gun Mag published copy with pix of groundhogs taken 35 yards from a Delaware apartment complex...

Realistically, that's where the market is headed... As the bulk of the USA gets more densely populated... us hunters will have to get creative with ways of protecting our close neighbors, keeping friends with families nearby, etc... Lucky for us - low velocity cast will do just the trick.... a 30-whisper, subsonic 44 special, 45 colt, or 38 spl... in a single shot, a bolt gun, or a lever gun will do the trick... Those heavy, flat nose bullets hit real hard, but they don't carry long distances and the "Pop" they make is far less nerve wracking than the "Ka-Boom!!!" that a "Real" high power rifle makes.....

Thanks

[michiganvet]

@Canuck Bob; I don't doubt that you would find the 250gr WFNGC to be just the ticket for your meese. Beartooth will supply them cast, sized and lubed in your choice of diameter. Even loaded in my Marlin .44 Mag I feel comfortable with Hog, Elk, Moose, or Bear.

[High Desert Hunter]

I am in the heavy slow crowd. I have ceased to load my 45 Colts with anything other than the RCBS 45 270-SAA at 900-1000fps, it will kill deer, elk, black bear, or a hog will boring regularity. When we think of the 45 colt, one of the Army's requirements was a round that was capable of killing a horse at 600 yards, this with a 250gr bullet over 40grs of BP. In my Marlin Guide Gun, I load the 462-420 to around 1400fps, kills as far as I can hit, I limit my my shots, I am not a long range hunter much anymore. I shoot a compound, and a recurve, I shoot heavy arrows in both, I don't believe in 60-70 yard shots on game, but that is just my personal belief. I picked up a new Ruger 45 Flattop, and it will get a steady diet of the 285gr RCBS bullet at 1000fps, perfect companion to the Guide Gun.

[leadman]

Even jack rabbit hunting with a 22lr will give you experience with bullet designs. I started out here in Az using the bulk roundnose on these jacks and had many that would just hop away as if they were not hit.
I was hunting with a friend one day and he gave me some different bullets to try. These were the Remington Flat nosed jobs, what a difference! With the roundnose one could barely here the impact if it was more than 100 yards away, with the Remingtons you could definitely hear the impact.
Still lost a few, but most jacks died within a few yards even if the hit was marginal.

As a side note, I shot a jack shortly after I bought my Savage 17HMR with the 17gr bullet at over 2,600 fps. I was only about 50 yards away, almost emptied the clip before it died! Had quite a few 1" holes in it. Not as effect as what I thought it was going to be.

[Canuck Bob]

This continues to develop with me. I have lots of experience with 256 grain 444 hunting bullets, soon to be 4 decades. Both the 265 Hornady and the earlier 265 Remington loads. Velocity was needed for long range shooting. Launching a 265 gr bullet at 1600 to 1700 fps would be good to 125-150 yards but i hunted the Canadian Rockies. My last moose was 175 yards and the terminal performance of that slug was outstanding.

Today I like the big bore as much and do not need to ask as much from my 444. I am developing a plain base cast bullet load that will meet my protection needs for a camprifle in big game country and yet allow me to shoot my 444 as a fun plinker in comfort. I suspect a few 280 grain Swift A Frame thumpers might be in my pocket but I have youngsters and camp in grizzly country. Of course the bears are very secretive around here. They all know human interaction means a dead bear sooner than later.

After this discussion and other sources I have confidence that within 75 yards a 265 grain big bore cast bullet at medium velocity will protect me and mine with serious authority and anchor a moose as far as I can see with my peep sight these days.

[Marlin Junky]

...We were talking specifically about .44 and .45-70 type bullets. I can't remember if he said it was his personal tests or Ross Seyfields personal tests with 45-70 with WFN 405gr bullets at 1600-1800 fps yeilded 48" of penetration in wet newsprint. The same bullet at 2150 from a .458 mag yeilded only 44" of penetration. This stuck in my mind.

The reasoning was that the bullet with the higher speed was actually setting up a pressure or shock wave in front of it that was impeding it's penetration. The slower bullet did not create as big a pressure wave in front of it and as a result still had sufficient momentum to penetrate deeper. This is because the momentum was not being bled off as fast by trying to overcome the shock wave of smaller size than the faster bullet generated. Makes sense?

Yes, it makes sense; however, the shock wave can be altered by altering the meplat and/or ogive radius; i.e., by changing the aerodynamics. A more streamlined (not talking pointy, just less meplat diameter and/or more ogive radius) .458 at 2100+ would penetrate deeper, probably cavitate as much as the slower boolit with a larger meplat and definitely shoot flatter.

MJ

P.S. I didn't read the whole thread, so I apologize for any redundancies.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
CANUCK BOB, thanks for the comment on the 444 with a 265gr slug on moose at 175yds.
I had only shot Utah mule deer with the 444 with 265gr. Remington, 225gr HP Speers, and the Lyman 250gr. gc Kieth. With all 3 it was a bang flop,DRT but all ranges were 100yds. or less.
I always thought the 444 would be excellent for close woods elk or bear hunting. If it can do that to moose, then elk and black bear would be no problem.
Unfortunately ,my son owns my old marlin rifle in 444 now.:-|:Fire::Fire:

[Canuck Bob]

Boom Boom, I consider the 444 a 200 yard gun when loaded stout. I no longer hunt actively due to medical issues. I would use a 275-300 grain LBT bullet today for hunting and still load above 2000 fps for long ranges in a micro groove. For closer range big game I would throttle back and get DRT performance. No matter how you look at it a 265 grain 44 cal bullet is a big bullet. With the excellent results the 300+ gr cast bullets offer it is easy to think of the 265 as light but they hit hard.

The 265 J bullets expand well and still penetrate. A 265 cast designed and alloyed for penetration with a big meplat penetrates well. Here is a link with some excellent 444 bullet testing ideas. The winner was a Ranch Dog 44-350 but the lighter bullets are covered.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,81274.0.html

[Lloyd Smale]

youd probably get a kick out of playing with paco kellys 22 accurizer tool. I allows you to make a few difffernt nose designs and different hp cavitys with cheap bulk 22 shells.
Even jack rabbit hunting with a 22lr will give you experience with bullet designs. I started out here in Az using the bulk roundnose on these jacks and had many that would just hop away as if they were not hit.
I was hunting with a friend one day and he gave me some different bullets to try. These were the Remington Flat nosed jobs, what a difference! With the roundnose one could barely here the impact if it was more than 100 yards away, with the Remingtons you could definitely hear the impact.
Still lost a few, but most jacks died within a few yards even if the hit was marginal.

As a side note, I shot a jack shortly after I bought my Savage 17HMR with the 17gr bullet at over 2,600 fps. I was only about 50 yards away, almost emptied the clip before it died! Had quite a few 1" holes in it. Not as effect as what I thought it was going to be.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Thanks for the link to marlin owners, on the bullet tests. I found it interesting & informative.:Fire::Fire: