large primer pocket 454s

[Lloyd Smale]

Well i loaded up this ammo about 2 years ago to try and finally got around to it. Didnt get any chrono readings. Just shot them for accuracy at 50 yards of the bench. THe loads were 27 grains of 110 28 grains of 297 and 27 grains of 4227. As you can see nothing earth moving but a medium heavy load. Bullets were the 300 rcbs swcgc. Ballitic cast 320lfngc and 350lfngc. Primers were (lg) cci350 (sm) federal small rifle match mag. Results were a little suprising. All the loads with 4227 and 297 did better with the cci350s. Only one load. The load with 300 rcbs swcs did better with cci 350s and 110 and it was a slight differnce. The rest of the 110 loads did substantialy better with the small rifle primers. I shot 3 - 5 shot groups with each out of my FA 4 5/8s 454. I guess the good thing is even the biggest groups I shot today went just a tad over 2 inches at 25 yards so in all reality any of the loads i tried would have been plenty good for anything a guys is going to do with an open sighted handgun. Star of the show was the 320lfngc with 27 grains of 4227 and the cci 350. The largest of the 5 shot groups was just under an inch at 50. Smallest went about as close as i can measure with my eyes to somewhere between a 1/2 inch and 3/4s of an inch. Also shot the snot out of my 475 FA gun. If anything that gun shoots even better. If these FA guns dont shoot youd never know it by these two. I dont know what to think of the large primer vs small debate. Id say the large won today but it wasnt by that much of a landslide and alot more testing would need to be done to prove to me that theres much of an advantage. I would have to guess though that if i would have been loading up anohter notch it might have made a bigger differnce but im out of touch with these big recoiling handguns and id like to work into it rather then start flinching. Sure made me want to break out my 500s though!

[RobS]

I found the big difference in hang fires or poor ignition leading to boolits being stuck in the barrel with the lower charges (minimum or near) of H110 and #9. Nothing shoots the heck out of accuracy than a boolit that doesn't even make it out of the barrel to hit the target. :lol:

I've converted all my brass to LP primer pockets and haven't looked back.

[44man]

Lloyd, our problem was with working from a starting load of 296 when the powder would not ignite with a SR mag primer. (We tried them all.)
The LP mag cured that and allowed load work and they proved to be more accurate at max then the max with the SR primer.
Not being able to work loads for a certain gun was the stumbling block. I did not like the idea of max or nothing. [smilie=b: Kind of funny that we still wound up with a LISTED max load. It is only 41,600 CUP. Funny Hodgdon is still using CUP!
We also shoot 50 yards with either a red dot or scope so any accuracy problems show up faster.
The load that worked best with the LP mag was the LBT 335 gr WLNGC with 26 gr of 296. Shot from a SRH. Many groups of 3/4" to 1".
We did go higher but this worked best.
I consider any starting loads for H110 and 296 should be removed from data when using the SR primer. You can get in big trouble if you don't pay attention and know what every shot did and if it left.
Keep a brass rod and hammer with you and never start any fast double action play?
A boolit lodged in the barrel with the unburned powder behind it and another fired will give a nice double kaboom because the unburned powder will also go off.
I also had extreme case tension and a real good crimp that did not help. Any more crimp then I used would bulge brass and break the tension. I used a Redding profile crimp die. It helps hold brass in place.
If you load max, the SR primer is OK and might be better for those light bullet, 55,000 to 60,000 loads some think they need. ( does anyone REALLY do that?)

[bigboredad]

How does one go about changing your brass from a small rifle primer to a large pistol primer? I was under the impression one would have to buy .460 brass and have a trimming party

[RobS]

Here is the thread where a few of us posted:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=92064&highlight=454+casull+large+primer+pocket

[ole 5 hole group]

Lloyd, those CCI350’s are hotrods relative to peak pressure.

That’s some mighty good shooting at 50 yards (half-inch) and will be damn hard to improve on.

I’ve found WLP’s to work for me, so if you have some laying around give them a go sometime and see how they work for ya.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got alot of ww lrp but i guess i figured the whole deal with this was to get more spark on the powder so i used 350s. =ole 5 hole group;1254559]Lloyd, those CCI350’s are hotrods relative to peak pressure.

That’s some mighty good shooting at 50 yards (half-inch) and will be damn hard to improve on.

I’ve found WLP’s to work for me, so if you have some laying around give them a go sometime and see how they work for ya.[/QUOTE]

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess what was surpising was that those loads i were using were starting loads for the 454 and i sure didnt have much trouble with igniting them. At least none that the accuracy showed. It also seemed funny that 110 being the hardest to light of the powders i used showed the least advantage. Almost shows me that the fed match lg rifle primers were plenty hot enough as is. I would guess that if anything if i increased powder charge id be upping pressures and ignition would be even better. I usually have my problems with ignition on the low end of pressures not the high end. Im not trying to say that the large primers didnt work just that it may be more bother then its worth. Bottom line is i can get good ignition with either and if a guy is getting hangfires with slow burning ball powders its more then likely caused by to light of loads more then it is by the primers. Same thing shows up with powders like 820 in the 44 mag and 45 colt. If you dont load up to wear the pressures make burning good you about need a mag primer to get it going. I hear all the time guys shooting 820 in the 44 and 45 at low pressures with standard primers and i know right away those guys just dont own a chronogragh. I think it was even brain pearce who claimed mag primers were not only not need but were dangerous in loads with 820. Sounds to me that he got that info from a label not from shooting his gun. My point in all of this is if your getting hangfires your probably operating at levels the cartridge isnt designed for. Either kick it in the but or put it away and take out your 45 colt. Alot of guys want to make everyone think a 454 is a finiky round to load for. they loose touch with the concept of the round. It wasnt designed to shoot 250s at a 1000 fps. It was made to take the 45 colt to another level. It was made to run at 50000 plus pressure. Use it like it was intended and all the gremlins go away and small rifle primers work just fine.
Lloyd, our problem was with working from a starting load of 296 when the powder would not ignite with a SR mag primer. (We tried them all.)
The LP mag cured that and allowed load work and they proved to be more accurate at max then the max with the SR primer.
Not being able to work loads for a certain gun was the stumbling block. I did not like the idea of max or nothing. [smilie=b: Kind of funny that we still wound up with a LISTED max load. It is only 41,600 CUP. Funny Hodgdon is still using CUP!
We also shoot 50 yards with either a red dot or scope so any accuracy problems show up faster.
The load that worked best with the LP mag was the LBT 335 gr WLNGC with 26 gr of 296. Shot from a SRH. Many groups of 3/4" to 1".
We did go higher but this worked best.
I consider any starting loads for H110 and 296 should be removed from data when using the SR primer. You can get in big trouble if you don't pay attention and know what every shot did and if it left.
Keep a brass rod and hammer with you and never start any fast double action play?
A boolit lodged in the barrel with the unburned powder behind it and another fired will give a nice double kaboom because the unburned powder will also go off.
I also had extreme case tension and a real good crimp that did not help. Any more crimp then I used would bulge brass and break the tension. I used a Redding profile crimp die. It helps hold brass in place.
If you load max, the SR primer is OK and might be better for those light bullet, 55,000 to 60,000 loads some think they need. ( does anyone REALLY do that?)

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got to wonder too if part of the problem you guys are seening are in the gun. Ive got a couple redhawks and if thats what your using theres a good chance that its light primer hits that are causing your hang fires. Redhawks are notorious for it and im sure that problem is amplified when using a harder rifle primer. I dont know how many rounds have been through this fa gun but its a pretty good pile and ive never had a squib or hangfire of any kind at any level using any small rifle primer.

[44man]

ive got to wonder too if part of the problem you guys are seening are in the gun. Ive got a couple redhawks and if thats what your using theres a good chance that its light primer hits that are causing your hang fires. Redhawks are notorious for it and im sure that problem is amplified when using a harder rifle primer. I dont know how many rounds have been through this fa gun but its a pretty good pile and ive never had a squib or hangfire of any kind at any level using any small rifle primer.
SRH Lloyd. NOT a hang fire. SR primers went off fine but would not light the powder. Besides, there are no factory .454 RH's.
Something I did not tell you above. I got starting charges to go off fine with a Fed 150 primer and they worked up to max.
However the 155 was more accurate.
Yeah, you just know I had to try a standard primer too! :holysheep
I have never, ever had a problem with any listed load in the .44 or .45 using 296 with a standard primer either. For these 2, I ONLY use a Fed 150.

[bigboredad]

thanks Rob I still can't make that @!@&%#! search work for me I'm going to go nuts every trying to use it. Sorry to but in guys

[Lloyd Smale]

One thing we have differnt is weather. Even yesterday when i shot these it was only 40 degrees. I dont ever load 110/296 aa9/wc820 or wc297 without some kind of a mag primer. In most cases 350 ccis. I dont care if they give a 1/4 inch better accuracy and to be honest that hasnt been the case with me. Ive seen it go both ways and usually its a mag primer that gives me the best accuracy. Like i said even if it did i wouldnt use them. They may work in 70 degree weather but it gets down to well below freezing durning our main hunting season and at those temps they just dont light off those powders reliably. Im sure not going to load a differnt load for summer and winter. Ive seen weird chronograph readings with standard primers even in the summer and really bad swings when it gets cold. Funny thing is i dont see those swings with the 454 even in the cold using ww or federal small rifle primers but then again im not trying to drasticaly download. As to the redhawk thing i realize that the 454s are supers but my buddys supper has problems lighting off anything but feds in double action so im guessing the supers suffer from light primer strikes too and we both know that just because a primer goes off it doesnt mean the primer wasnt hit pourly and because of it the spark is reduced.. I still have to stick to my theroy that most of the problems guys are having with 454s are because there trying to light off reduced loads of ball powders. Ive seen some loads guys use that are percentage wize way lower then what hogdon would recomend in a 44 mag. even my 27 grain load is less then most sources give for a starting load in it with a 300 grain bullet. Most sorces list 28.5 to 29.5 as a starting load with a 300. Id NEVER go lower then that and its taken me alot of shooting over a chrono to trust that load in my gun.

For the most part we agree. To light of a load is a problem in these guns. For the most part a guy is going to stuggle more with any large case revolver shell like the 454 475 500 line and the other 500s trying to down load then he is in a smaller case. Like i said if you want a 45 colt buy one. To me down loading it below starting loads is about like pulling 2 plugs on a new corvette because you want to talk the talk but not walk the walk.

By the way have you tried magnum small rifle primers?
SRH Lloyd. NOT a hang fire. SR primers went off fine but would not light the powder. Besides, there are no factory .454 RH's.
Something I did not tell you above. I got starting charges to go off fine with a Fed 150 primer and they worked up to max.
However the 155 was more accurate.
Yeah, you just know I had to try a standard primer too! :holysheep
I have never, ever had a problem with any listed load in the .44 or .45 using 296 with a standard primer either. For these 2, I ONLY use a Fed 150.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i never had a misfire using cci 400 SRP in my 454 and H110 but do i need to switch to a mag primer my loads are 27.5 300gr cast and 35.5 240 xtp for my encore pistol ??
can things go bad using a standard primer

[44man]

i never had a misfire using cci 400 SRP in my 454 and H110 but do i need to switch to a mag primer my loads are 27.5 300gr cast and 35.5 240 xtp for my encore pistol ??
can things go bad using a standard primer
Not if you have primer heat and enough powder.
Some problems with a SR mag primer is caused by too much air space and primer force that pushes everything forward with a loss of heat in the air space. There is just not enough compound to sustain fire.
Lloyd, I have hunted and target shot with my .44 and .45 in -20* with no problems using a standard primer. I have made many cold weather tests.
Seems as if Cassull would use duplex and triplex test loads starting with Bullseye next to the primer. It was the danger zone he worked in that made him choose the SR primer, not that the caliber needs the thing. From what I understand, he owned a lot of scrap metal!

[Lloyd Smale]

another kind of odd result from the second day of shooting them was that it according to my data the small primer actually did better lighting off lower pressure loads and the cci350 did best with hotter loads. Just the oposite of what i figured would happen. If a guy looked at that he about come to the conclusion that the small rifle primers are actually giving a hotter spark then the 350s. I have come to the conclusion thought that the whole project was worthwhile. I now have two kinds of brass and the best lower pressure load was 26 grains of 297 fed match rifle primer with a 300 rcbs swc and the best on the higher side was 28 grains of 110, 350 cci with a 350 lfngc both loads basicaly blow one hole in the target. I know one thing im sure out of shape for shooting big guns. Two days of it and it feels like a truck ran over my wrist today. Today will be a good day to do some rifle shooting and take a break and tommarow ill finish up the loading project on the 475 fa. That one really punishes.

[RobS]

Lloyd:
I have better load development in general with standard LP primers, either Wolf or Winchester. I noted that with H110 at the upper end loads a magnum LP primer may have had a possible or very slight improvement with accuracy over a standard LP primer but not enough to really call it a definite. Most of my reloading doesn't involve the use of H110 so I don't even use or buy magnum LP primers. Never have used any large rifle primers but wonder on occasion about the use of them.

[Lloyd Smale]

Rob i guess my train of thought goes to why not just use a small rifle primer if your not trying to light off big quanitys of ball powder. Ive sure never had any accuracy problems or ignition problems with light loads in the 454s.

[RobS]

Lloyd:
The ending results for me have simply yielded better accuracy and lower ES's with the LP primers for the number of loads I develop with the two boolits that I shoot. Yes there were some loads that I tested that were nearly the same whether I used SR primers or LP primers but in the end LP primers won out with having a larger array of flexibility over the SR primers. The same brass with the same primers can light off the lighter loads, the mid-house loads, and also the big boomers with the accuracy I am looking for. Heck you even found that a LR primer has been a top load for you........without the primer pocket change you would have never of known.