P-14 bolt in a 300WM 1917enfield??

[BT Sniper]

I picked up a 1917 enfield that had a hack job done to it in attempt to convert to 300WM. The bolt face is unusable as far as I'm concerned. I need to pick up a new bolt and have read a P-14 bolt can be used in the 1917 for use with the magnum calibers. Is this true? Any one have any first hand knowledge or can tell me a thing or two about it.

Would I be better off purchasing a 1917 bolt and paying to have the bolt face opened up or go with the p-14 bolt? The shody work done on the bolt face makes me question the rest of the conversion job. What else should I look closly at? I imagine there may be head space issues with either bolt I go with. Anyone know an expert gunsmith that works on these enfields? In Oregon?

I probably wouldn't even bother with the effort but the bore just looks to good to give up. It is Winchester made. I'm not concerned with matching mfg parts, just want the thing to shoot well. It has been sporterized with the bottom floor plate straightened.

Here is the link to the gun I picked up. Going to get rid of the scope and mount.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=223950295

Really have a liking for these 1917 enfields. Growing up my dad used a handed down one in 300wm that is just beautiful with a HS barrel on it and it always shot under 1 moa with many sucessful hunts to it's credit. So of course I want one now.

Thanks for any addvise.

BT

[nicholst55]

A P14 bolt should work just fine, but the P14 uses a smaller diameter firing pin tip than the 1917 does, so the FP hole in the bolt is correspondingly smaller. I'd swap a complete bolt assembly if I could get one.

[BT Sniper]

Good to know. I think I can find a complete bolt easy enough. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Thanks

BT

[GARCIA]

Sent a Winchester P14 action to Montana Rifle Works years ago and had them build me a 7mm STW on it. Bolt face appears to have never been touched. Currently not at home but if you look at the rim size for the old British 303 and a modern belted case head they should be within a couple of thousandths of each other.

I would grab the P14 bolt and continue on your build without looking back.

Tom

[skeet1]

The old rifle actually looks good. if you can get the headspace correct with another bolt it should be a good hunting gun.

Ken

[flounderman]

the parts are mostly the same but the pattern 14 uses a different extractor. the hook is narrowed and probably has a point, where the 1917 is flat. you could use the 1917 extractor on the pattern 14 bolt, but the pattern 14 might not let the bolt close on a 1917. the 1917 has a cone shaped barrel end where the 14 is flat and uses less threads. I would use a 14 bolt and firing pin, and a 1917 extractor. if the 14 extractor would work, I would use it because it would close over the rim and the 1917 would need altering. if the gun feeds and closes ok now, the 1917 extractor probably has been altered and all you would have to do is switch it.

[elk hunter]

Brian;

Greg Cooper of "Lone Rock Arms" in Glide, a small town East of Roseburg Oregon, has built a number of guns on Enfield actions and can probably help you with your bolt problem. If you are interested shoot me a PM and I'll give you his phone number.

[swheeler]

The P14 bolt is made for square breech design and you won't be able to put it in the gun with coned breech barrel. On the 1917 bolt the front of both locking lugs are beveled to rotate inside of coned breech, on P14 bolt one lug(right side) is beveled and left lug is square to bolt face for square breeched barrel, it won't enter a 17 coned breech. So you aren't going to find a "quick fix" get a 1917 bolt and have the face opened up, or get a P14 bolt and have the left lug reground for coned breech.

[BT Sniper]

Brian;

Greg Cooper of "Lone Rock Arms" in Glide, a small town East of Roseburg Oregon, has built a number of guns on Enfield actions and can probably help you with your bolt problem. If you are interested shoot me a PM and I'll give you his phone number.

Thanks I'll send a PM.

As I understand it the extractors are actually different lengths between the 14 and the 17 so can't interchange them. The extractor on the gun I bought was hacked pretty good too. THe bolt face looked like it was opened up with a hand held dremmil tool. Unenven and over .560 in diameter as I recall.

The square breech design......? Pretty sure I understand that. From the looks of the gun it appears to have had a good portion of the barrel (breach) turned down as it appears to be flat now compaired to the 1917 coned. I know only way to figure it all out is have a gunsmith look at it. I wonder if it was turned down this much to eliminate the excessive free bore? I know the 1917 of my dad's had what seemed to be a 1/2" jump.

I did look at the difference in rim size from the 303 and the 300 mag. It is only .008 larger in diameter and .015 thicker in rim size. Seems like a good match.

Still welcome any more info you guys have to share.

Love the 1917s with the dog leg bolt and extra weight. Just seems to feel "right" when it is put to the shoulder.

Good shooting guys.

Thanks

BT

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/CCF05012011_00000.jpg

BTS; I drew you a picture, not a very good one but a picture!

[swheeler]

As you can see that P14 will never shoot right, danged barrel is bent, har!

[BT Sniper]

bent barrel LOL!

I'll have to look a bit more closly but the barrel I have was turned down flat with a cut out on the right side for the area ahead of the lugs.

I think it may just work but I'll have to have a GS look at it to tell for sure.

Thanks and again welcome anymore input.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Love the Enfield.

Here is a pic of my dad's. He had given it to me for a number of years and when he retired last year he decieded he had a need for it back. Not the best picture but I refinished the stock and cleaned up all the metal. Heck of a shooter. 3/4 MOA was the norm out of her. I was just getting good with her too with consistant 2.5" groups at 300 yrds.

Love the Weaver Grandslam scope on top of her too. Perfect set up in my opinion.

BT

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1050129.jpg

[nicholst55]

A number of gunsmiths used to rebarrel 1917 actions with the square breech design; no reason why it can't be done. I briefly owned one in .300 Mag that was barreled with the square breech. My current .458 Lott will have a coned breech, IF the gunsmith ever finishes the bloody thing! He had never done one with a square breech, and insisted that it couldn't be done. It really didn't matter to me, so I didn't argue.

[gew98]

Back in the late 80's early 90's one of those big outfits was selling Patt'14 actions set up for belted magnums , barreled actions and complete sporters sans scopes in those same belted mag calibers. They sold a ton of them..but I never seem them at shows.. where did they all go. I got a beautiful Remington Model 30 cheap once as the owner did'nt like it because it "was a cut down army rifle ".....I tried to give him a history lesson but he would'nt hear it as it looked like a cut up army rifle to him and he did'nt want that. I love/hate ignorant people like that.

[gwozdz]

A few years back, Century Arms did a conversion to 7mm mag and mine shot very well. I really love that action.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have had several M17s and a few P14s over the years, always been fond of them. I have wanted to build a 375H&H on one for as long as I can remember. I picked up a nicely sporterised Eddystone M17, which I thought had a trashed barrel (didn't have my readers that day, but only wanted the acton, stock, etc, so I wasn't worried about it). The rifle has languished in the safe for the past 5 years or so. I dug it out recently and after putting a rod through it, found it had a pretty good 2 groove Bbl. I always wanted to play with cast in a 2 groove (yeah I know, but this sort of thing keeps me occupied), so I have left it as is.

I bought a new Remington 700SPS DG (Dangerous Game) fo about the same money as a fitted premium barrel and it has open sights as well. I don't suppose I will ever build the 375H&H/P14/M17 whatever as it will take me more time than I have left to wear out the 2 groove Bbl on cast boolits :)

They are big, ugly and awkward, but I reckon they are like Chinese food. You buy one and pretty soon, you want another! lol

[BT Sniper]

Well an update..... I acquired a P-14 complete action. Checked the fit of the 300wm in teh bolt face and it looks like it was a perfect fit. Haven't tryed the fit in my 1917 yet but I'm hopeful. I'll soon know. Still love the 1917 and now that the p-14 looks to be a perfect fit for mag cartridges maybe I'll start looking for a few cheap p-14 guns with teh hop of someday making my own custom on one.

Good shooting

BT

[BT Sniper]

So far so good with teh p-14 bolt in the 1917 enfield for a 300WM. swaped extractor claws and bolt closes perfect on the 300wm case. Now need to determine if I have proper head space or not. I'll have to read up a bit or get a set of guages.

Getting closer...... next tap the reciever for a scope mount. Probalby have a good gunsmith do that for me then he can check the rest of the gun.

BT

[Shooter6br]

My M1917 was made in 1918 June . 20 in barrel Weaver 2.5 scope. Great cast bullet gun. Used 170 g Lee TL Gc with 13.5 Unique.(.311) Working on some heavier bullet loads and upgrade the scope to higher mag for target work Nice vintage scope

[swheeler]

So far so good with teh p-14 bolt in the 1917 enfield for a 300WM. swaped extractor claws and bolt closes perfect on the 300wm case. Now need to determine if I have proper head space or not. I'll have to read up a bit or get a set of guages.

Getting closer...... next tap the reciever for a scope mount. Probalby have a good gunsmith do that for me then he can check the rest of the gun.

BT

So it did indeed have a square breech face(P14 style)

[Bullwolf]

I also have an old (R) Remington 30'06 M1917

And a M1917 sporter, that was re-chambered in 300 Win Mag.

They have a nice used and functional look to them, that reminds me of an old favorite well carried hunting rifle

I love the feel of these guns, and they are both shooters. I have learned so much more about the history of this type of rifle after reading all the informative posts here about the Enfield, and the M1917 on Cast Boolits. Thanks for the pictures gang.


- Bullwolf

[BT Sniper]

Well I got an update!

I while back I picked up a good p-14 complete action and finally got around to spending some time to check if the bolt from a p-14 would funtion in a 1917 action chambered for 300 WM. As the story goes I picked up a cheap 1917 sporterized for 300 WM but the opened up bolt looked ..... Well AWFUL! Looked like the GS had used a hand held dremmil to do the job. HACKED!

So intial results from the P-14 bolt looked very promising. Only draw back was that the face of the extractor claw needed to be squared up a bit. Don't know if this is a 1917 thing or because the GS turned off so much of the barrel in the process of rechambering it??

So after a couple months I got the balls to go for it. With a quick touch of the front of the claw to a grinder I was good to go. I was even able to confirm the headspace and found it to be better with the new p-14 bolt then it was with the hack job other bolt.

So now the only thing left to do is test fire. I would also like to tap the reciever for scope mounts.

I think she is going to be pretty and I got high hopes for the out come of this riffle. After seeing how easily the p-14 bolt took the 300 WM I don't think I would hesatate to convert an allready buba'd P-14 action to a 300WM!

check out the picks.

Here is the hack job bolt with the p-14 extractor on top
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060992.jpg




Here is the look and fit of the new extractor in the p-14 bolt that functions in my 300 WM chambered 1917 enfield
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060998.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060998-1.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060995.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060997.jpg

Good shooting

BT

[swheeler]

Glad it worked, EXCEPT the bolt pictured is not an UNALTERED P14 bolt. It is either a 1917 bolt body or a P14 bolt body altered for a coned breech 1917 barrel, like I've had to do several times. The left bank locking lug(bottom picture top lug) is square on the front on an unaltered P14, for the square breech barrel. You got a 1917 bolt body or one altered for a coned breech 1917.

[swheeler]

BT; sorry about that, forgot you PMed me and said the coned breech had been turned off the 1917 barrel before rechamber to 300wm.

[BT Sniper]

So the top lug in this picture on a standard p-14 bolt is completly square at the frount?

Interesting. I got this bolt from a p-14 action and it works well in my converted 300 wm??

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060994-1.jpg

[swheeler]

Ok lets get this solved. Your OP asked if a P14 bolt will fit into a 1917 that had been rechambered to 300 WM- the correct answer is NO without altering the breech or the left lug on the bolt period. Now YOU PMed me later to say that the breech face had been turned square-the gunsmith turned the coned breech off the barrel and rechambered, that makes it a P14 breech system/square breech- so now it will accept either bolt. If you take a 1917 original barreled reciever and a P14 bolt (with the extractor removed) the left bank lug will contact the coned breech of the 1917 stopping it. Put your picture of the original back up, if it was indeed a 1917 bolt body(and not a p14 bolt with a 17 extractor) you will see the 1917 bolt has the left lug with the same angle as the coned breech, not the rounded hump with the square front. Someone here still has to have both an original P14 and a 1917, try to swap bolts(remove the extractor first) the 1917 will go right in to the P14 rifle and close, the P14 bolt will slide in to the 1917 but will not close, it will contact the coned breech.

[swheeler]

Look at the pictures of the bolt face in Frank DeHaas' book, excerpted at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=tuVUMLRE47UC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=p14+rifle+bolt+face+extractor&source=bl&ots=tIBqF1jkAF&sig=y8tJvXpRv4KVbraTpCexjI-3luc&hl=en&ei=Y4uLTZW8FMO_tgf1ru38DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

The P14 and 1917 locking lugs and extractors are visibly different and he describes some other differences you could use to tell which pig in a poke you have.

BT; try this there is a good side by side close up of the left locking lugs, just so you know. Allof this makes no difference since you have a P14 breech now(square) I had an original 1917, a P14 in 6.5 Rem Mag barreled with square breech, and a P14 in 375 H&H barreled with coned breech and P14 bolt lug altered. About 25 years ago you could buy P14 actions for under 30.00 with your choice of bolts, 1917 or P14. I think it was 129.95 for five through the license, got 2 Remington and 3 Eddystone, the Winchesters were more 59 or such.

[swheeler]

Enfield Rifles-21 then scroll down to Pattern 14, look at the side by side of bolt lugs. Hope this helps

[swheeler]

I tried to copy and paste the picture here but it won't let me.

Quote from directly below the picture-Frank DeHaas

"Bolthead of the 1917(right) and the P14(left) note the extractor hook and left locking lug."

It just took a few minutes to google this up, Frank knew what he was talking about.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I tried to copy and paste the picture here but it won't let me.

Quote from directly below the picture-Frank DeHaas

"Bolthead of the 1917(right) and the P14(left) note the extractor hook and left locking lug."

It just took a few minutes to google this up, Frank knew what he was talking about.

The only way I have ever been able to post pics here is to use photobucket and copy the link from there. There may be easier ways (Photobucket accounts are free).

[swheeler]

The only way I have ever been able to post pics here is to use photobucket and copy the link from there. There may be easier ways (Photobucket accounts are free).

4FOD; I can't even get these to photobucket, think it is a copywrite thingy?

[BT Sniper]

I saw the link. I also took some pics of both my bolts. I'll post them soon. I'm still pretty sure I got a p-14 bolt. Or else some one went threw the trouble to open up a 1917 bolt face and put it together with a p-14 action......... come to think of it the bolt has the serrial # on it and I'm pretty sure it matches the P-14 action.

Anyway it looks good and I'll test fire soon.

BT

[swheeler]

BT; I know you have a P14 bolt, look at the square front on left lug.
1st- you said to me(pmed me) the breech face has been turned off square, it is now a P14 SQUARE BREECH BARREL, no longer a 1917 coned breech barrel, SO YES THE BOLT WILL WORK>either bolt will work NOW.
2Nd- When you got the new bolt you told me you looked at them and they are IDENTICAL, if they are truely IDENTICAL then you originally had a P14 bolt. I don't believe this though.
3rd- Are you telling me you look at those two pictures and can not see the difference on the left locking lugs, I don't belive that either. I'll bet Frank DeHaas doesn't either.
4th- once the breech face of the original 1917 coned breech was turned square before rechambering the question became moot because NOW either bolt will work.
5th- I guess making swage dies doesn't require much attention to details:) Have a nice day.

[BT Sniper]

well now..... no need to bring attention to details into the matter. Simple misunderstandings.

Short on sleep and have a cold here so my brain function may be a bit clowdy.

Yes I can see the difference. Yes I see the flat ground on the frount lug of a p-14 vs. the 1917 lug

You said "EXCEPT the bolt pictured is not an UNALTERED P14 bolt"

Maybe my pics and definations where confusing. I'll try and post it a bit simpler for those that might not be as fimilar.


Here is a 1917 bolt that was altered for use in a 1917 barrel that was rechambered for 300WM that seemed to have a square breach that I bought used. It was a poor job opening up the bolt face in my opinon. The extra extractor pictured is from a p-14 and did not work "as is" in my rechambered 300wm square faced barrrel, Obvioulsy!
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060992.jpg


















Here is a picture of my P-14 bolt (unaltered except ectractor claw to the best of knowledge, sure it looks to have been "blue printed"? or the lugs where smoothed and polished) with the extractor ground flat at the frount to work in my 1917 enfiled rechambered 300 wm with flat breach faced barrel.
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060998.jpg

[BT Sniper]

BT; I know you have a P14 bolt, look at the square front on left lug.

5th- I guess making swage dies doesn't require much attention to details:) Have a nice day.


You doing OK there swheeler? I appreciate your help and enjoy talking old rifles and shooting but I don't apperciate your sarcasm.

I didn't claim to be an expert on enfields. I simply enjoy shooting them and if I can make it more accurate by using a p-14 bolt vs. a hack job opened up 1917 bolt in a 300 WM then I think I will be all the better.

I bet there are others we could help that may wish to make the same bolt swap without opening up the bolt face of a standard 1917 bolt. You think we can help them without cutting each other down?


Good shooting

BT

[Four Fingers of Death]

You guys have lost me, all of my experience has been with standard milsups and the odd bubba with original Bbls. For the cost of a decent Bbl and fitting in Australia, you can buy a new rifle, so I don't get into it much.

Having said that I am seriously considering re barrelling my old well worn 300WM BDL, but it has served well, the blueing, anodising on the bottom metal and the bolt checkering are just about gone, the Bbl is well worn and the checkering and stock have been worn down. It deserves a re-start.

[swheeler]

You doing OK there swheeler? I appreciate your help and enjoy talking old rifles and shooting but I don't apperciate your sarcasm.I didn't claim to be an expert on enfields. I simply enjoy shooting them and if I can make it more accurate by using a p-14 bolt vs. a hack job opened up 1917 bolt in a 300 WM then I think I will be all the better.

I bet there are others we could help that may wish to make the same bolt swap without opening up the bolt face of a standard 1917 bolt. You think we can help them without cutting each other down?


Good shooting

BT

Bt; The important thing is you got it! I'm fine and was just kiddin about the swaging stuff, I put a smiley behind it since using quick reply doesn't have this:kidding: Scott

[BT Sniper]

Thanks Scott. I tend to misinterpret stuff when I'm sick or short on sleep.

Yep I think we got it figured out. I'm currently refinishing the stock and will install some AL pillers. The barrel actually looks pretty good. I have seen a few now with some excessive pitting. Corresive primers back then or just neglect I dont' know?

Stock is looking great though.

Well I'll keep the thread posted with my progress.

BT

[swheeler]

BT; No problem I tend to come off as abrasive to many, more so to some. I wish I had kept every single "Enfield" I ever owned, but who woulda thunk you couldn't get an all org Eddystone for 35.00 and those darned 03-a3 for 59.00, I mean a brand spankin new Herters J9 barreled action was 59.00. Wow I'm gettin old!:) And don't get me goin on gasoline or a new pickup!!!

[Four Fingers of Death]

and will install some AL pillers.

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to hijack the thread, riddle me this;

when you install pillar bedding, the action bears on the pillars, but floats otherwise. Am I correct on this??

[BT Sniper]

I'm sure it has been done both ways. Bedding teh entire action with pillers and bedding just teh piller area. I'm going to try just the piller area.

I have picked up a couple more sporterized 1917s as well as an spoter action with extra mag face bolt. I also just ordered a brand new Criterion barrel for the 1917. I'll probably have it reamed to 300 WM and put together for me by GS. Some day I'll learn a thing or two about gunsmithing with these old but wonderfull guns. Seems like a good one to practice on as I can usually find a good donor action atached to a old pitted barrel for under $200.

More pics and fun to follow.

Love the 1917s

BT