Contender pistol in trade...do it?

[DakotaElkSlayer]

I can trade my Walther P99 for a Contender with a 10" .223 and a 10" 30-30 barrels. Both have the wood forearms and Japanese Tasco pistol scopes. The whole thing looks perfect, not a scratch.
What do you guys think? Yes, IMHO the Walther P99 is the best semi-auto made today, but it is still a SEMI-AUTO. Used to love it until I was picking up the brass in the snow and mud. Now, except for popping the occasional grouse, it isn't shot.
I love the single action revolvers, but my aersenal is pretty good with .22lr/mag, 32 H&R Mag, couple of .45 Colts and a .475 Linebaugh. My rifles are good, but in centerfires the smallest is 6.5x55.
So, I am figuring the .223 would make a good 'yote calling gun. Figure down the road, a smaller stock and rifle barrel would make a good deer rifle for my son. I own a few of the H&R Handi Rifles and really like the single-shot aspect. Problem is, I really don't know anything about the accuracy and reliability of the older Contenders.
Please, take a few minutes and educate me on the Contender and any other thoughts....

Thanks,

Jim

[Ole]

If you were offered a couple of 14" barrels in those calibers, i'd say jump on it.

[DragoonDrake]

Get rid of the semi and get ready for the next best addiction in life.

[marshall623]

You will love the T/C

[Hamish]

What model of Tasco scopes?? When it's open is there a lot of slop trying to rock it side to side? When you close it, does it feel solid? Honestly, there have been both stellar shooters and tomorrows rechambers come out of T/C, but I'd be very tempted, especially if you can squeeze dies and brass into the deal. Even at lowball prices of ten years ago you'd be doing just fine.

[canyon-ghost]

No, don't trade unless you really want to shoot "The Ultimate Hunting Handgun"!! The contender is accurate to the point of making shots no other handgun makes. Reliable? I took me a while to learn how they function and never really had a parts problem.

I have four of them and several calibers.

Seems to me if you've shot everything else, you are going to love the TC.

[wellfedirishman]

I have a P99 also and though I like it, it is just a tool like any plastic gun.

A TC with those two barrels is a great trade for your Walther.

[schreibwy]

No 9mm will be as much fun as any centerfire contender. I have 7 pistols and carbines from 22 lr to 45-70 and everyone of them shoots very well. It wouldn't even be a question for me.

I don't have the 30-30 barrel, but the man who has killed more elk than I will ever see, uses his 10 inch 30-30 all the time.

Both barrels will be blasty, but shoot with hearing protection or load down.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Thanks for the "push" guys! You know what's like to get some expert opinions to push you in the right direction. After reading these, I went over and made the deal. The deal was through a buddy who is liquidating guns for this old timer who has cancer; getting money for the guys wife. He was asking $600 for this and I knew my Walther and its gear was worth more, but you know, sometimes you gotta do what's right. A similar transaction a month ago put a Single Six in .32H&R Mag in my hands in exchange for a Walther P22 that I never shoot.
When I went to pick 'em up, I found a small "gouge" in the pistol grip; no big deal. Well, two seconds ago the gouge was scraped off with my thumbnail...wax? So yes, not a scratch in the wood or metal. Seems to be nice and tight when closed and a very slight side-to-side when open. The scopes are a 2X20 and a 3X20, but no idea on the model. Made in Japan, silver ring around the objective end, and probably glass as good, if not better, than my Leupold M8. Also included are the iron sights for each barrel, .22mag and .22LR chamber inserts, RCBS dies for each caliber, Western Super X 30-30 shells, .223 shells and bullets, and brass for each. Just discovered that the 30-30 is a 14" barrel, not 10". I am pleased and am hoping some of you guys will help out when I have questions on this guy. Any idea where I can download an owner's manual from? Serial # is 245XXX...any idea on the year? The 30-30 barrel has a hooded front sight and a sling stud attached to the barrel...yet the grip shows no stud for a sling??? Any ideas on this?

Thanks again for the encouragement on the trade,

Jim

[wellfedirishman]

You realize of course that you have to post pics of your new Contenders after all this discussion, right? :)

[frankenfab]

Congatulations! I think the last 2 deals you made are smokin' and I love the caliber selection of your collection.[smilie=w:

[stubshaft]

It was made between January and June of 1984. It is a Second Generation frame with quick release. The 30/30 barrel is modified as T/C never drilled the barrels for studs OR put a hooded sight on one.

If you thought that buying boolit molds was addicting then you just opened a WHOLE can of worms. I bought one just to shoot silhouette and seven frames, with six different grips, eight different styles of forends, three buttstocks and nineteen barrels later the addiction still isn't satisfied.

Good trade!

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Thanks guys! Will post pics ASAP! ...and stubshaft, haven't bought a mould yet! Collecting lead, pewter and LEARNING...then comes the moulds! :-)

[leadman]

The 30-30 in a 14" is a great barrel. You can load it with cast or jacketed, powder puff to elk.

[canyon-ghost]

Your owner's manual and parts list: http://stevespages.com/pdf/thompsoncenter_contender.pdf

Covers the particular model you have. The pdf files usually require Adobe Reader programs.

Ron

[big dale]

Be sure you start thinking about getting a 7mmTCU barrel for the gun. Mine was the super 14 and it was great.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[pistolman44]

I wouldn't hesitate if the barrels where 14" in those calibers. I don't think you would get a complete powder burn in that 10" 30-30 barrel. I had a 7-30 waters 14" that was very accurate.

[fryboy]

nothing has expanded my reloading like getting my first 'tender ... or emptied my wallet as much .... stub has it right "If you thought that buying boolit molds was addicting then you just opened a WHOLE can of worms. I bought one just to shoot silhouette and seven frames, with six different grips, eight different styles of forends, three buttstocks and nineteen barrels later the addiction still isn't satisfied."
worse - with every new barrel i acquired i needed new dies brass and often a scope , looking back i wouldnt change it , as i stated they really did expand my reloading knowledge ( a few i have are wildcats ) fair warning - wait until you meet their newer bigger brother the encore :P

[6.5 mike]

Bought mine with a scoped 6m/m tcu barrel on it, then a 22 lr, 6.5 jdj, 7m/m tcu, 30 herret & last (so far) a 22 hornet. It just never seems to end, LOL. Any body got a 6.5 tcu bbl ? :drinks:

[canyon-ghost]

I'll chime in on the 7mmTCU, love that one! The contender really has a world all it's own. There's nothing threatening about a single-shot, broke open to show the case head, balanced across your hand (something a 10" barrel does very well) while you walk around setting targets. It's also a good indication that you aren't in trouble with law enforcement- you aren't robbing banks with a single shot!
I'd not trade in a 10" barrel so fast, there are faster pistol powders that work with it. I like the 10" barrels and don't see a thing wrong with the accuracy I get from them. Just some more experimentation to make them work. The 10" 7mmTCU I have will get on paper at 200 yards with lead bullets, not bad.

Ron

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I would jump on that trade if is not octagon barrels but i like 14" barrels
more

[475BH]

I have 2 Tasco Proclass scopes, a 2x and a 4x w/ A/O and target turrets (I bought this one new, very nice pistol scope).
I put the 2x (bought used) on my 45-70 Super 14 and worked up a load w/ some 475 gr. LFN's and the scope couldn't handle all the fun we were havin.
The elevation dial kept turning, after each shot I had to turn it in quite a bit.
So I put that scope on a 61/2" .22 rf barrel and it does fine now.
I wouldn't give him much for those scopes you may have to relegate those to .22 duty like I did..
And yes those scopes have very nice optics and I just love the tapered crosshairs w/ the dot in the center.
I think that price is a lil high, those barrels are only worth about $125.00 ea. Are they round bull or tapered octagon?
What style grips?, there has been several styles available over the years.
Good Luck, as everyone said they are fun.[smilie=w:

[DakotaElkSlayer]

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv193/DakotaElkSlayer/DSCF2181.jpg

Here are my new babies... Notice the stud attached to the 30-30 barrel...think it was for mounting a bipod? Just noticed that the old timer had small base dies for the .223??? Will get a collet die later; probably for both barrels.

Jim

[canyon-ghost]

Beautiful, you even got a nice set of Herrett hunting grips and forend! You got a good deal. Nice easy open frame too. Mine are all this vintage except one stainless frame. These frames have the best triggers- the cadillac of contenders.

Ron

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Anyone have any good websites, books, etc. that will help make me an expert on these pistolas?

Jim

[Artful]

Not to lead you down a path, but congratulations, be prepared for malaria like bout's of T/Citis

I've had mine a long time and after a feverish period of buying/selling/trading barrels and such I had remission for almost 20 years then I came down with it again. You just never know.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

You guys are right about the addiction... Instead of DREAMING of new firearms costing $500 and up, I am looking at BARRELS at 1/4 the price that are much, much more do-able in my wife's eyes!

Jim

[Artful]

Anyone have any good websites, books, etc. that will help make me an expert on these pistolas?

Jim

graybeard outdoors
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php
Forum & classified section

Ed's barrels
http://www.edstc.com/

Perfect Union forum
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/thompson-center/

to look up when made
http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t1/index.html

Barrels
http://www.eabco.com/tcref.html

Bullberry barrels
http://www.bullberry.com/TCbarrels.html

Mike Bellum - T/C Guru
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/
home of the T/C newsletter http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=67

[stubshaft]

That "stud" on the barrel is an Uncle Mikes sling mount. You wouldn't put a bipod on the barrel.

[marshall623]

They look great , that 14" 30-30 won't let you down , don't pass up on a 7 TCU or a waters both are great .

[bobthenailer]

If the Tasco scopes are the Pro Class series ? they are good scopes ! i have 4 of them . I really like the tapered crosshair with center dot retecule.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

graybeard outdoors
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php
forum & classified section

ed's barrels
http://www.edstc.com/

perfect union forum
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/thompson-center/

to look up when made
http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t1/index.html

barrels
http://www.eabco.com/tcref.html

bullberry barrels
http://www.bullberry.com/tcbarrels.html

mike bellum - t/c guru
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/
home of the t/c newsletter http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=67

specialt pistols
check it out you will like it

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Your owner's manual and parts list: http://stevespages.com/pdf/thompsoncenter_contender.pdf

Covers the particular model you have. The pdf files usually require Adobe Reader programs.

Ron

THANKS RON!!!!!!!!

Jim

[canyon-ghost]

Artful gave you a good link, Thompson Center Contenders Forum, and Thompson Center Contenders Classifieds on Graybeard Outdoors. It's a good place to be and the sponsor is a local vendor that I have personally met- ED's TCs, edstc.com .

And you're welcome, any silhouette range or Hunter's Pistol event by the NRA is TC Contender oriented.

The owner of this website, 45Nut, or Ken is in Chat in the evenings. He's had several Contenders, Encores, etc. Come to chat if you can, you're welcome there.

Also, again, Specialty Pistols is about custom-built Contenders and Encores. You can learn things but, watch how much money is attached, could be expensive.

Ron

[stubshaft]

Don't forget Match Grade Machine for aftermarket barrels.

[part_timer]

Nice looking set up you have there. I found IMR 4198 a good starting place for my short 223 encore.

[HEAD0001]

I prefer the 10" barrels in my Contenders. I think the 10" barrels are the perfect length. Kind of matches a 6" to 7" revolver in overall length. And the holster's are not ridiculously long.

If you have sights for the 223 and want to sell it I would be interested in purchasing it.

The 30-30 barrel is a perfect barrel for the Contender in a 10" model.

Personally I don't care for the 14" barrels. Just too long for me. They do not balance as well(IMO) as the 10".

As far as information is concerned. I am a member of the "Specialty Pistols" forum. There are some real experts on that forum. And a ton of information. Also I have found they have the best classifieds for TC stuff on the net. I have bought 4 barrels in the last couple of months. Be prepared for the addiction!! Tom.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

If you have sights for the 223 and want to sell it I would be interested in purchasing it.
Tom.

Tom,
Yes, the box the Leupold mount came in now houses the iron rear sight. I am not a fan of the .223, but am afraid to sell it. In this house, any CASH quickly goes to something silly like bills. I am hoping to trade it in the future for a barrel in .221 Fireball, or something like that. If in the future that appears impossible, I will be sure to let you know.

Thanks,

Jim

[quilbilly]

You have my deepest sympathy for your soon-to-be new addiction. I started out with one frame and two barrels and they multiplied to five frames and a dozen barrels from 8 to 22 inches long. I don't know how it happened. must have followed me home like stray dogs.

[Artful]

Tom,
Yes, the box the Leupold mount came in now houses the iron rear sight. I am not a fan of the .223, but am afraid to sell it. In this house, any CASH quickly goes to something silly like bills. I am hoping to trade it in the future for a barrel in .221 Fireball, or something like that. If in the future that appears impossible, I will be sure to let you know.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, just so you know the 221 Fireball get's it's name from the muzzleflash - out of a 10 inch contender it looks about like a beach ball - make my .256 Win Mag look like pale imitation of a flame thrower :bigsmyl2:

Try the 223 out with down loaded velocity you will be suprised by how nice it is - I'm thinking of threading mine for my suppressor.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

These frames have the best triggers- the cadillac of contenders.
Ron

Just wanted to report that I just played with the trigger adjustments on the Contender and all I can say is "WOW!" Eliminated the pre-travel and post travel and she breaks like a set trigger. Slammed the action closed extemely hard several times to make sure it was safe.
Last Friday I took the barrels out to shoot a few rounds... Found the recoil on the 30-30 suprising; expected a lot more. Lots of bark, but not much of a bite. Going to be a learning curve learning how to shoot this...doesn't feel as natural as a revolver.

Jim

[big dale]

Be prepared to become a master at adjusting dies.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I love my 14" 44mag

[Got-R-Did]

Wow, I think you did very well in the trade. Likewise I agree with many here in the severity of yet another addiction you are destined to suffer. T/C Contenders have been a passion for me since I began reading Bob Milek's writings in Shooting Times in the early 70's. Bought a Remington XP-100 first and then a Contender in .357 Mag 10" octagonal barrel (1978). I have over a dozen barrels and four receivers currently and always looking for more.
I have taken many Whitetails with my 10" .30-30 barrel with the Hornady 130, and Sierra 135 Single Shot Pistol bullets. Nearly 2K fps even out of the 10" (with expected muzzle flash) but deadly out to 150 yds, which is about as far as I am confident on game I want to take as cleanly as possible. Coyotes are still at acute peril if they show up within 200 yds of my stand.
I took a really nice 8-point Whitetail in 2009 at just over 100 yds with my 7 T/CU Super 14 and Nosler 120 BT. This was the first outing for Whitetails with this barrel, although it has accounted for a few groundhogs and coyotes (all hits resulted in "bang-flops").
Good luck in your efforts with these beautiful toys!
Cheers,
Got-R-Did.

[Arisaka99]

Man, y'all are making me want a contender now!! I was thinking about getting an Encore, because it will handle normal rifle calibers, but I think im being swayed to a 'tender. haha How bad is the recoil on them in the rifle calibers? The sound of shooting a 30-30 in a pistol is quite scary, Im used to shooting 9 mm's and 40 S&W's. Im sure I could eventually get used to shooting heavy loads in a pistol.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

How bad is the recoil on them in the rifle calibers? The sound of shooting a 30-30 in a pistol is quite scary, Im used to shooting 9 mm's and 40 S&W's. Im sure I could eventually get used to shooting heavy loads in a pistol.

I was concerned a bit about the recoil from the 30-30 when I chambered the first round... Recoil is less than a warm load out of a .45 Colt Vaquero. If you wrap your offhand around your grip hand when shooting, the trigger guard will wrap your knuckle a little...hard enough that you will only grip the gun once or twice like that. The muzzle blast, on the other hand, is another story....

Jim

[Artful]

Recoil in heavy round barrels doesn't seem to be an issue with good grip designs now available, now if someone says here shoot my saw handled 44 mag octagon barrel T/C - politely say "no thanks".

When it first came out it was only designed for mild stuff like 38's and 22's, the grip was literally like a handsaw handle and seemed to accentuate the recoil, I was really happy when I tried the Pachmayer grip let me tell you.

Now muzzle blast and flash on some of the contender calibers can be quite intimidating, you will find by changing powders & downloading just a bit you can make it a much more enjoyable expericence.

[Arisaka99]

Yeah, I am a wimp when it comes to recoil. Ive never shot a 45 at all. Like i said before, the biggest handgun Ive shot is a .40 Smith. I would like to try a 45acp. But I like the ability of an Encore to convert to a pistol, and back, and that it will handle the heavier rifle rounds.

[dk17hmr]

Contenders are the boats of of the shooting world. I have put more money into barrels for my Contender in the last year than any other firearm I own.

Right now I have barrels chambered in 218 Bee (10"), 45lc (MGM 15"), 444 Marlin (14"), 375 Winchester (21"), 22/30-30AI (21"), 30 Herrett (10"), and will soon have probably one of the only 10" 25acp barrels in the free world.

[Artful]

Contenders are the boats of of the shooting world. I have put more money into barrels for my Contender in the last year than any other firearm I own.

Right now I have barrels chambered in 218 Bee (10"), 45lc (MGM 15"), 444 Marlin (14"), 375 Winchester (21"), 22/30-30AI (21"), 30 Herrett (10"), and will soon have probably one of the only 10" 25acp barrels in the free world.

Nice start on a collection, but I have to ask what's the 25 acp barrel for?:hijack:

[canyon-ghost]

Going to be a learning curve learning how to shoot this...doesn't feel as natural


That's what I said about revolvers after getting used to the competitor grips and shooting rifle scopes atop them. http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/2007079-1.jpg

That's a hunterspistol thing. We only use lighter recoiling cartridges up to 30 carbine, 32-20, and 270 Ren with that grip. And yes, once in a while it pushes your right hand into your glasses or the bill of your cap. Not the most pleasant experience either. This kind of hold takes full advantage of the light trigger pull and an adjustable objective scope. http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/32-20withnewpress004.jpg

Good Luck,
Ron

[Three44s]

I bought my first Tender face to face this spring and an octogan 10" in .222 rem over on the GB forum.

The receiver comes with a 14" super .30-30 barrel and a 10" .45LC/.410 ga. as well.

I tried the .30-30 and did not like it at first ..... factory 170 gr. loads did not agree with me (a lefty) shooting the factory wood grip set up exclusively for a righty!

Talk about torque and YAW!!!

After I bought the receiver and grip I set about sanding the righty ridge off and made it a universal style of grip.

I went back and shot some reduced handloads and then the other day took the jump and got my single cav. Lee .309-180 gr. GC style going and sans gas checks double thinned liquid alox lubed as cast slugs.

Around 16 gr. of Imr 4227 with 2 gr. of poly fill thrown in for consistency.

SWEET!

Sweet as to recoil and my golf balls kept DISAPPEARING!!!

Hard on the wallet those Tenders are ......... when it comes to barrels .......... "ya just can't have just one"!!!!

Three 44s

[ted16102]

I'll also chime in with being a Contender owner. With seven actions and thirty barrels it certainly can become addictive. Along with that each barrel carries its own scope and custom grips and forearms. Most of my barrels have come from Fox Ridge and SSK. One of my favorites is my 6mm TCU which has harvested hundreds of groundhogs and several deer.

[sffar]

You did real well on that deal–that's a nice setup, and the much more interesting gun imho.
Now I'm thinking about what I might get rid of to buy a Contender!

[canyon-ghost]

To up your learning curve, try placing your opposite index finger against the forend. With open sights, I do that all the time. My outside hand (on the grip) is usually steadier. The accuracy will drive you crazy if you don't remember three things: draw down on to the target while exhaling slowly, be relaxed so you aren't straining to make the shot, and don't get your heart racing and try to shoot.

The Ultimate Hunting Handgun is a beautiful thing! A lighter grip will shoot better than trying to over-control it. The same thing applies to bullet crimp, it likes light taper crimps too.

If it seems expensive to shoot, then get yourself a 22lr barrel and some 40grain roundnose ammo. Makes 100 meters (109 yards) with shootable accuracy. The short barrels are just louder, hearing protection with a Contender is your friend.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/22lrWeaver001.jpg

Checked zero on the scope at 50 meters, 2 shots, done! That black spot is the size of a quarter (sharpie marker).
Ron

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Thanks for the tips! Included were 22LR and 22 WMR inserts for the .223 barrel. Going to start working with those a lot....

Jim

[Four Fingers of Death]

Check this out, lots of good reading, performance parts, how to, tools, etc:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=562

I have an Encore rifle with a 308 and 17Akerly Hornet bbls. Facinating guns. Hummed and haarred for ages going to sell them, keep them, etc, etc. Fiddly compared to a bolt gun, but will run rings around most pistols. Sort of like warts, they grow on ya!

I would like a Contender as well.

NOE has a nice mould they just had a group buy on, but it is still available. Available with HP pin if you like as well. I got a 2 Cavity with one cavity that has a HP pin, excellent mould.

Enjoy, good deal!

The only way to operate a 9mm or similar brass chucker (what a lot of us call autos in Australia) is to buy a few thousand brass. Take them to the range in trays if you must, but pick up what you can see afterwards and bring them home bulk that way you won't be chasing the odd cartridge which is most annoying.

[ubetcha]

Factory or full loads can be hard on the hands,but reduced loads are a pleasure in the 14" 30-30. I shoot a 165gr RCBS Sil cast bullet for I.H.M.S.A silhouettes.This is my favorite gun and caliper. Right now I trying 18.5gr of Sr 4795 powder.Have not had a chance to get to the range yet to shoot it, but have heard that this is a good load

[7br]

You would be surprised how much fun a .22 hornet barrel is on the contender. Makes me giggle just to whack a field pistol chicken with a 22-55rcbs slug

[leadman]

If the 30-30 gets to be too much for you go to Speciality Pistols and buy a Ross muzzlebrake. You can have Eric there install it as Ross can't on the short barrels.
I have 4 of these brakes and the guns do not jump or come back in recoil at all! This includes my Encore 28" 7mm Mag barrel with 150gr Nosler BT at 3,300 fps!
I can see the impacts with my 6PPC Encore pistol barrel also.
The 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is a great deer bullet for longer ranges in the 30-30 if you are so inclined.

[donald duck]

My favorite load for 7 MM TCU is 5.2 grains Unique behind a 120 grain cast GC bullet. Cast my own 120 grain bullet. Size and lube in RCBS LAM II. It is a fun outfit and not too expensive.

[donald duck]

Have a friend at range that shoots cast 55 grain bullets behind 10.4 grains 4198. I have seen his results, cover five shots with a nickel at 25 yds. Should add that is in a .223 barrel.

[uscra112]

Just wanted to report that I just played with the trigger adjustments on the Contender and all I can say is "WOW!" Eliminated the pre-travel and post travel and she breaks like a set trigger. Slammed the action closed extemely hard several times to make sure it was safe.
Last Friday I took the barrels out to shoot a few rounds... Found the recoil on the 30-30 suprising; expected a lot more. Lots of bark, but not much of a bite. Going to be a learning curve learning how to shoot this...doesn't feel as natural as a revolver.

Jim

That's a Gen 1 frame, and in fact it IS a set trigger. I'm almost too new to Contenders to make any comments at all here, but my first is the same as yours, and I find the trigger to be as nice as my set-trigger Schuetzen rifles.

A tip I had to learn for myself: That hammer-block slide will cause mystery misfires if it doesn't drop clear fast enough. I just stretched the spring on mine, after messing with all the other stuff that Mike Bellm sells, (wasted $$, that). Actual fix cost zero $$. Have seen this mentioned nowhere else.

I got my frame cheap, and I bet it's because the previous owner hadn't figured it out.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Well, you now have two of the most popular calibers made by TC. All you need now is a 14" 44 mag barrel and you will be set. I have tried a lot of different calibers and they were all very good, but the most practical calibers are the "44 mag in no less than 14", the 30-30 in 14" and the 223 in any length that you can shoot best in. It is an addiction and I have kind of cured my self by cutting down to the three I mentioned. Wellllll I do have a 7.62X39 10" but haven't got it to shoot like I would like it to.