What I'm I doing wrong? casting problem

[tayous1]

So I'm trying to load the boolits I casted the other day in my LEE MOLD 6 CAV TL452-230-2R. So today I tried to load a few rounds but keep screwing up the COL with these boolits as you can see from the photo. I keep getting the COL over the 1.245 if I raise the die my COL is coming out at 1.295 if I lower it little by little by the time I get to 1.265 the next time I lower it a little more they come out like they look in the photo.

I thought it was just me screwing something up so I loaded one of the lead round I bought and it come out fine with a 1.240 COL. So I'm I doing something wrong? When I tried to size my Boolits none of them seemed to need it. What I'm I doing wrong? It it me or my boolits? Thanks for the help.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0430111113a.jpg

[Fire_stick]

What type of bullet seating die are you using?

[jblee10]

I would suggest seating the bullet and crimping is seperate steps. Raise the die body until it does not crimp an empty case. Then start with the bullet seating stem raised, put a charged case in the press, put a bullet in the case and raise the ram. Measure and lower the seating stem if needed. Repeat until you have the proper COL. Seat the bullet in all of your cases. Then, back off the seating stem so it will not touch the seated bullets. Lower the die body until the cases are crimped as you want them. Crimp all your cases, shoot and enjoy.

[youngda9]

You don't raise and lower the die to set OAL...you use the screw on the top of the die. I can see by the increasing amounts of crimp on the cartriges of the bullets seating further that you are actually moving the die height.

You need to read your die instructions.

[Firebricker]

Looks like your crimping way to much. Once you set the die body to put a light crimp on the case lock it in then use the seating stem to adjust your OAL. What brand of dies are you using ? I would look up instructions for the brand your using. FB

[462]

As the others have mentioned, but unstead of using charged cases, practice with dummy rounds -- no primer, no powder -- till you get it right. Once that happens, pull the boolits and measure them to see if the seating die is swaging them down, a definite no-no. If so, that can be addressed in another thread.

If you are using Lee dies, I've found them to be very unfriendly toward boolits, and no longer use them, and many have complained about their Carbide Factory Crimp Die.

[geargnasher]

To adjust seating die:

Step one: Raise ram to top of stroke.
Step two: Install seating die, screw it down until it just touches the shellholder, then back off two full turns. Make sure the lock ring is backed off at least one thread from lockdown.
Step three: Lower ram and remove seating adjuster screw and plug from seating die. Push the plug out the top with a pencil or Q-tip.
Step four: Install a sized, deprimed, expanded and bellmouthed case in the shellholder and run the ram up to the top.
Step five: Screw the seating die body down until the crimp ledge touches the case mouth. Lower the ram slightly and add a half-turn or so to the die and run the ram up fully again to "dry crimp" the case mouth. Keep adjusting the die body down, using 1/8" turn increments, until THE BELLMOUTH IS REMOVED AND THE CASE MOUTH IS STRAIGHT, NO MORE. The .45 ACP neither needs or wants a true crimp, just remove the bellmouth.
Step six: Reflare the empty case, install a boolit, and run it up into the die body, but not all the way to the crimp ledge.
Step seven: Reinstall the seater plug and adjuster in the top of the die body, lowering it until it touches the boolit nose. Lower the ram slightly and screw the adjuster down a turn or two, raise the ram all the way to begin seating the boolit. This will crimp slightly and shave a little lead, but keep going, this is a dummy round. Keep lowering the ram, lowering the adjuster screw, and raising the ram fully again a little at a time until you reach your desired Cartridge Overall Length. At this point, lock the die body lockring in place if you're happy with the amount of crimp the die body is giving. The next round you run up in there will have the correct crimp and the correct COAL, all done at the same time.

Keep a dummy round on hand for crimp adjustments, if you find you need more crimp to chamber properly, back off the seating adjuster a turn or two, adjust the die body to crimp where you want it and lock it down with the lock ring, then reinstall your dummy round, run it all the way up and hold it there tightly with the press handle, and screw the seating adjuster down until it firmly contacts the boolit nose. You are now reset for the correct COAL and crimp.

Gear

[milprileb]

Separate seating and crimping as stated.

If those are 230 gr Lee RN (228gr they advertise), have you sized them ? I find
they drop a bit oversized from this model of mold and would be hard to seat in
a 45acp case. I size them .452 and that is far more satisfactory than my previous
.451 sized ammo. You pistols will tell you what size they like !

As to Lee Carbide Crimp Die: I dunno guys, they seem to work fine in 45ACP and 9mm reloading for me. I no longer have any bulged cases (it was rare when it happened) to cause chambering issues in my 1911 pistols in 45 and 9mm calibers.

[fredj338]

You don't raise and lower the die to set OAL...you use the screw on the top of the die. I can see by the increasing amounts of crimp on the cartriges of the bullets seating further that you are actually moving the die height.

You need to read your die instructions.
This!^^^ Read the instructions before you start reloading. The die body is set to just crimp & you raise & lower the seating stem to adjust bullet depth. Not to pick on you, but really, did you not reading even the reloading primer in your manual? This is basic pistol reloading 101.:oops:

[Ben]

tayous1 :

How much reloading have you done ? The answer to this may shed some light on how we may respond to your inquiry ?

Are you loading 45 ACP ?

If so, the finished rounds shouldn't look like a 357 Sig ? ? ?

You need some help with the proper adjustment of your seating die.

You say " When I tried to size my Boolits none of them seemed to need it."
Can you tell us what dia. your cast bullets are that you are making reference to in the above statement .

[tayous1]

I have reloaded over 5,000 round. A little over 1,000 45acp using lead, FMJ and JHP . I'm using LEE carbon dies. What you see in the photo was just from me seating the boolits no crimp was used charge was placed in the round boolits was seated and that is how they came out.

I tried a few of the left over 230gr lead Suters choice to make sure I was not going anything wrong. Each of the 25 Suters choice I loaded looked and shot like the last 500 I loaded before. So why is it that these boolits are not working? I loaded lead and JHP 45acp with no problem today.

[geargnasher]

Do you own a micrometer?

Gear

[tayous1]

Do you own a micrometer?

Gear

No about 12 years ago I did when I worked tool and die.

[geargnasher]

Get a good 0-1" mic, a copy of any edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, and go back to the beginning. I agree with FredJ, this is 101 stuff, and you're scaring me a bit if you don't know already how to correct a simple seating issue, or don't have the tool to properly determing what size your cast boolits need to be for your particular gun.

Gear

[Ben]

tayous1:

Until you know the answer to this question, we aren't going to be making a lot of progress on this one :

You say " When I tried to size my Boolits none of them seemed to need it."
Can you tell us what dia. your cast bullets are that you are making reference to in the above statement .
_______________________________

You say..... " What you see in the photo was just from me seating the boolits no crimp was used "

The photo is blurry, but the ends of the case mouths look to me to have had an excessive amount of crimp put on them ? ?

[tayous1]

Get a good 0-1" mic, a copy of any edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, and go back to the beginning. I agree with FredJ, this is 101 stuff, and you're scaring me a bit if you don't know already how to correct a simple seating issue, or don't have the tool to properly determing what size your cast boolits need to be for your particular gun.

Gear

Have the book and read it. The seating is not the problem I have reloaded around 5.000 round and never had this problem before! Like I said I have reloaded over 1,000 45 ACP rounds from lead, FMJ and JHP. This is the first time I have had this problem and it was with using the cast boolits! I loaded 25 lead round that I bought and 25 JHP and had no problems loading and seating them like I said before! So why I'm I having problems seating my boolits?!

If I would have screwed up on the Lead and JHP I bought then I would have known it was me doing something wrong in the reloading part. Yet my other rounds came out fine as they had before! So if two bullets seat and load fine and the boolits don't seat I guess the problem is my reloading? Not the boolits?


As I said when I was seating them if I tried to seat them less the 1.265 they would seat to far! Now I'm not some *** at reloading and when I first started reloading my problem was going over the COL. I'm just trying to find the problem it's not my reloading unless cast boolits seat and load another way that bought lead bullets don't? If that's so I'd like to know! I'm guessing it's the same so if I can seat and load bought lead round and JHP why can't I do the boolits I made?

Problem is the boolits not my reloading skills! I will take the hit on my boolits skills needing work because this is my first batch. But I will not take the hit on my reloading skills since I have done it a few times without any problems.

[Ben]

tayous1


It isn't about taking a hit.

We are all simply trying to respond to your original post requesting help.

The more I read this , the more inclined I am to think that your mold is throwing out sub - sized bullets. Like maybe, .450 or .449 ". If your mold is throwing sub-sized bullets, it wouldn't be the first mold ( or the last ) to do so. It is an ongoing problem for casters who buy molds only to find out that they are not capable of throwing out bullets of proper dimensions with the particular bullet alloy that they are trying to use.

If that is the answer, your bullets are simply falling down into the case mouth with no friction fit. This would fully explain why you're having problems with the OAL of your loaded rounds.

Of course, to be certain on this, you'll need to mike your bullets as they fall from the mold, the fact that you say your bullets aren't being sized by your .452" sizing die tells me that this is probably your problem.

If you don't own a good mic, drive to a quality auto parts store with 3 or 4 bullets in your pocket and ask them to mic them for you. They would most likely help you out.

[Blammer]

tayous1, what is the diameter of your cast boolits? I suspect they are too small and are just sinking down into the case without any needed force.

See if you can take a normal case that's ready for primer and powder then to load and with no primer or powder see if you can seat the boolit by hand and how far can you get it to go in the case. I suspect your boolits are too small.

[tayous1]

tayous1, what is the diameter of your cast boolits? I suspect they are too small and are just sinking down into the case without any needed force.

See if you can take a normal case that's ready for primer and powder then to load and with no primer or powder see if you can seat the boolit by hand and how far can you get it to go in the case. I suspect your boolits are too small.

I think you might be right I took 10 of them out and measured the base of the boolits and they ranged from 0.445 to 0.451. So how would I go about fixing this? Can it be fixed?

[Ben]

445" - 451" That is a pretty wide range of variation. As a matter of fact too much.

Most molds ( even when they are sub-sized molds ) will at least be with .001 of consistency from bullet to bullet.

You numbers show .006" variation. That's unusual.

Are the bullets round ?

[geargnasher]

Good call, Ben.

I've been trying to figure out why those cases look like, as was mentioned, .357 Sig. Now I'm beginning to wonder if that crushed neck area is a result of being rammed through the crimp ledge on the seater OR if it's from barely kissing the sizing ring in the size die. I'm inclined to think the latter, since most .45 ACP seater dies will hit the shell holder WAY before 1/8" of the mouth would go past the crimp ring. If the decapping rod is set low enough, and in many sets it can be, it would be possible to partially size the case and still pop the primer out at the same time.

Tayous1, I think you got a bad mould, but the pics of your cases and your difficulty diagnosing what should be a fairly simple issue here makes me think you really need to get a cup of coffee, clear your head, and study the basic, step-by-step guide to reloading pistol ammunition that is outlined in your Lyman manual, and reference the instructions for your die set while you do. I know you think you know all of this, but your results tell me you don't. Please keep an open mind and don't think any of us are talking down to you, we're trying to find the breakdown here, and since none of us that have responded know you personally, it's kind of hard to tell where that breakdown is.

Loading cast boolits in the .45 ACP should be no different than jacketed as far as process goes, normally you don't even need to change expanders unless you have leading problems. Your projectiles do, however, need to fit the gun. If you follow Lyman's process for slugging your barrel and measuring the slug, then get a mould that casts that size or just over and then size them to what they need to be, you shouldn't have any issues.

Here's a pic of some of my .45 ACP with a custom mould I had made:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28901&d=1296091775

FYI, I had the mould cut to throw .453" boolits because my guns like .4525" or they tend to lead. Your gun might like a different size. The expander spud is a custom jobber that measures .451", leaving the brass at .450" for 2.5 thousandths interference fit on the boolit. This is just enough to keep from swaging the boolit undersized when seating it yet hold the boolit securely enough to keep it from getting seated deeper in the case under recoil. If there is insufficient tension on the boolit, after two or three shots the remaining cartridges in the magazine will have the boolits seated deeper in the case, and by the forth or fifth shot they may be seated far enough to blow up the gun. I have had this happen to a nice 1911 before, and the way I figured it out was the remains of the last cartrige in the magazine had the boolit seated clear down against the powder, and it was about a 50% density powder charge. This is why it's important to read and follow all the instructions for getting the correct fit. You should never have even tried to use those boolits you cast if they are that far undersized. All this is covered in the Lyman manual, so about that cofffee :coffeecom

Gear

[Ben]

Ditto, Well spoken Gear ! !

All I've seen is about " helping ", that is what we are here for .

[Doby45]

I set my COL totally backwards from Gear but my results are exactly the same.

1. Insert belled piece of brass in shell holder.

2. Raise ram all the way to top of stroke.

3. Screw seating/crimp die in until you can feel it touch the piece of brass, then back it off a 1/2 turn.

4. Screw seating stem out until it is about to come out of the die.

5. Place boolit on brass and run into the die.

6. Screw seating stem in until you have achieved your desired COL (little steps).

7. Once you have your desired COL unscrew the seating stem until it is about to come out of die or remove it totally from the die. (Your choice)

8. Slowly adjust the die down until you have reached the desired crimp (check by placing the round in your barrel)

9. Place properly crimped round back on the shell holder and run it back into the die.

10. Reinstall or adjust down the seating stem until it stops on the round.

You now have a properly adjusted die that will both seat and crimp at the same time. I still personally prefer to seat and crimp in two steps.

[geargnasher]

Well Doby, it's about time you showed up to set me straight! Aren't you glad this isn't another .40S&W thread? Where have you been?

The process you describe is actually a better way, and the way I'd normally suggest, but there are several more places to screw it up if you aren't really familiar with what you're doing. Situating the die body to crimp correctly and then locking it and leaving it alone, then setting boolit depth while ignoring the crimp scraping the boolit (only on the dummy) is a pretty foolproof, two-point process that doesn't require backing off the die body again.

Gear

[Doby45]

I just wanted to offer the alternative. ;) You are perzactly right either way will work. I have done it so many times that now I can do the whole process in about 30 seconds. But, there are more steps..

The rounds the OP are making definently look like some 400 Corbon. :)

I made some gorgeous 40s tonight for one of our members to use for testing in his 400 Corbon and thats what made me think of that when I saw the original pic..

[tayous1]

Good call, Ben.

I've been trying to figure out why those cases look like, as was mentioned, .357 Sig. Now I'm beginning to wonder if that crushed neck area is a result of being rammed through the crimp ledge on the seater OR if it's from barely kissing the sizing ring in the size die. I'm inclined to think the latter, since most .45 ACP seater dies will hit the shell holder WAY before 1/8" of the mouth would go past the crimp ring. If the decapping rod is set low enough, and in many sets it can be, it would be possible to partially size the case and still pop the primer out at the same time.

Tayous1, I think you got a bad mould, but the pics of your cases and your difficulty diagnosing what should be a fairly simple issue here makes me think you really need to get a cup of coffee, clear your head, and study the basic, step-by-step guide to reloading pistol ammunition that is outlined in your Lyman manual, and reference the instructions for your die set while you do. I know you think you know all of this, but your results tell me you don't. Please keep an open mind and don't think any of us are talking down to you, we're trying to find the breakdown here, and since none of us that have responded know you personally, it's kind of hard to tell where that breakdown is.

Loading cast boolits in the .45 ACP should be no different than jacketed as far as process goes, normally you don't even need to change expanders unless you have leading problems. Your projectiles do, however, need to fit the gun. If you follow Lyman's process for slugging your barrel and measuring the slug, then get a mould that casts that size or just over and then size them to what they need to be, you shouldn't have any issues.

Here's a pic of some of my .45 ACP with a custom mould I had made:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28901&d=1296091775

FYI, I had the mould cut to throw .453" boolits because my guns like .4525" or they tend to lead. Your gun might like a different size. The expander spud is a custom jobber that measures .451", leaving the brass at .450" for 2.5 thousandths interference fit on the boolit. This is just enough to keep from swaging the boolit undersized when seating it yet hold the boolit securely enough to keep it from getting seated deeper in the case under recoil. If there is insufficient tension on the boolit, after two or three shots the remaining cartridges in the magazine will have the boolits seated deeper in the case, and by the forth or fifth shot they may be seated far enough to blow up the gun. I have had this happen to a nice 1911 before, and the way I figured it out was the remains of the last cartrige in the magazine had the boolit seated clear down against the powder, and it was about a 50% density powder charge. This is why it's important to read and follow all the instructions for getting the correct fit. You should never have even tried to use those boolits you cast if they are that far undersized. All this is covered in the Lyman manual, so about that cofffee :coffeecom

Gear

I know your not trying to talk down to me and as for reloading I know I don't know everything and as for boolits I know I would say next to nothing about them. I did measure them after I casted most where in the range of 0.451 to 0.452 I did get lazy and did not measure the rest my bad! Lost track had three 16+ hour days on a search and rescue party. If I sound a little short it's not you its me the lack of sleep has been getting to me! Also these boolits just pissed me off to no end because they did not work again my fault for not measuring each round.

Advice on what I should do with this mold?

[Doby45]

I did measure them after I casted most where in the range of 0.451 to 0.452 I did get lazy and did not measure the rest my bad!

The mold isn't the problem. If it ever made properly sized boolits, which you just said it did, something changed. I would say something between the blocks but that would make the boolits larger not smaller. Something is not exactly right here and I don't think it is the equipment.

[geargnasher]

Get some rest, worry about boolits later, it will make more sense when you aren't wiped-out tired.

I hope the S&R is over and had a happy ending, I've been on a few myself and they often don't end up well at all, then I can't sleep for days afterward.

Gear

[Love Life]

gone.

[tayous1]

Get some rest, worry about boolits later, it will make more sense when you aren't wiped-out tired.

I hope the S&R is over and had a happy ending, I've been on a few myself and they often don't end up well at all, then I can't sleep for days afterward.

Gear

Well lets just say the family knows where there brother is! We found the body and let CI take care of the rest.

I'm going to melt down the boolits and try casting them again to see there size I'll add it on another post.

I hear you about the sleep I have not sleep well since Tuesday when this all started. Did get to work with a great group of bloodhounds and handlers!

[tayous1]

Yep. One thing I about that boolit in the traditional lube grove variation is it requires deep seating due to the ogive. Once you get it figured out you will enjoy shooting those as much as everybody else. What brand of dies are you using?

The mold I'm using is a LEE MOLD 6 CAV TL452-230-2R

[tayous1]

So what do I need to do to fix these molds?

[Wayne Smith]

So what do I need to do to fix these molds?

First, find the sticky on Leementing a mold and read it. You may not need to do every step, but there you will find instructions on just about everything necessary to fix a Lee mold that is capable of being fixed, and yours sounds like it is.

[Doby45]

You said it dropped .451-.452 that is about right for a TL mold as they are made to "not be sized". You need to Leement your mold if the boolits do not drop freely from it. Leementing will not fix an undersized or oversized mold. If it is undersized you can lap the cavities, but I don't think from what I have seen so far that there is a problem with the mold.

[geargnasher]

Show us some pics of the boolits you cast, and the mould cavities. That will tell us a lot.

Gear

[tayous1]

Show us some pics of the boolits you cast, and the mould cavities. That will tell us a lot.

Gear

Here are the casts

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0424111758a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0424111757a.jpg


I'll get one of the mold also. Not sure if this is any help but it seems like if I try tyo make the COL less then 1.265 they just fall in to the brass like the boolits is not long enough to make it a smaller COL. Maybe I should try to see if the 1.265 COL would work? I'm going off my Hornady reloading guide. 4.9 gr of Win 231

[geargnasher]

Here are the casts

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0424111758a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0424111757a.jpg


I'll get one of the mold also. Not sure if this is any help but it seems like if I try tyo make the COL less then 1.265 they just fall in to the brass like the boolits is not long enough to make it a smaller COL. Maybe I should try to see if the 1.265 COL would work? I'm going off my Hornady reloading guide. 4.9 gr of Win 231


What is that supposed to mean? Are you sizing your brass?????? What's causing the brass to look like .357 Sig???? This is for YOU to tell US, because you're doing something BIGTIME wrong here.

As for your boolits, a pic is indeed worth a thousand words. The bases and bands of most show very poor fillout from running the mould way too cool, (casting too slow of a pace to keep it hot enough for good fillout), so I'd say the boolit issue is more from operator learning curve than from a defective mould. Get the sprue plate hotter, too, by pouring a bigger puddle, that will help base fillout.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Yep. One thing I about that boolit in the traditional lube grove variation is it requires deep seating due to the ogive. Once you get it figured out you will enjoy shooting those as much as everybody else. What brand of dies are you using?

Lee doesn't make a standard groove version of that boolit. That's why I designed the boolit in the pic I posted above. I liked the stepped nose base and the two-radius ogive in my 1911's and they liked to feed the boolits, but didn't like to shoot them without leading. The bevel base and the tiny, weak microbands didn't work for my guns very well with the mould I had and alloy I like to use. What you say is true of the two-groove, 228-1R, which has to be seated way deep to keep the fat nose base from tripping the slide-lock lever on the autos.

If these Lee TL boolits are seated just like the ones in my pic, no deep seating necessary. I seat them where the front driving band "just" pokes out past the case mouth, they seem to work pretty well. The case has to be sized FL, expanded slightly with the factory sizer spud or a custom one I had made that is a bit deeper, and bellmouthed slightly, just like any other cast or jacketed boolit.

Note you can see the lube grooves through the brass in my pic, that's the result of a little case tension on the boolit, which is needed to prevent Kabooms.

Gear

[Love Life]

Sorry guys I was thinking this one 452-228-1R.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I haven't been casting that long myself. I had a real problem with watching the temperature, keeping my mold hot enough or too hot, not gripping the mold the same way each time, distance from the mold to the spout, trying to find a cadence, too much on the sprue plate, not enough on the sprue plate. I kept reading and asking and most of all, casting. I found out here, that using a hot plate to preheat the mold helped tremendously! It does. Through time at the pot, I found my cadence and how to set everything up so it would work for me. I really recommend getting a mic. and checking your boolits. It takes some time but well worth it. I would make sure I was getting good looking boolits and then drop a batch on a different towel (in order) so I could see what each cavity was doing. I had to get consistency in my casting before I could load and shoot. The first ones I cast leaded terribly and that was because they were either too narrow at the base or too narrow on a driving band. I had to cast, ask questions, read, and cast some more. I'm no expert but I can cast boolits now that do not lead and reach 1300 fps out of my GP-100. Happy camper now! You can do it, it just may take a little doing. Let us know how it is going. These guys are here to help.

[mpmarty]

Tayous1 forget crimping you don't want to do that. The boolit should NOT fit into a sized case without some force, quite a bit of force actually. Bell the mouth to prevent shaving the boolit and see if the boolit will go into the case. Push the nose against the bench and it should NOT slide into the case deeper even though you haven't crimped it. If it slides into the case either your sizer is oversize or the boolit is undersize.

[tayous1]

Sorry it took so long to post these up. I hope they help you all find out what the problem is as so far this has been a big turn off to the boolite world to me but willing to give it a few more times.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0503112002a.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0503112002b.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0503112003a.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0503112003b.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/blackgrub0331/0503112003c.jpg

[tayous1]

Tayous1 forget crimping you don't want to do that. The boolit should NOT fit into a sized case without some force, quite a bit of force actually. Bell the mouth to prevent shaving the boolit and see if the boolit will go into the case. Push the nose against the bench and it should NOT slide into the case deeper even though you haven't crimped it. If it slides into the case either your sizer is oversize or the boolit is undersize.

Thing is I did not crimp this was just from seating the round.

[Doby45]

Did you spraypaint it?

[Doby45]

Just seating a boolit will not crimp the neck to the point that it looks like a bottleneck cartridge. Your seating/crimping die is set way to far down. Looks like you have it turned down to the point of touching the shell holder when the ram is raised.

[geargnasher]

What we NEED to help you is the answers to the questions asked already: Are you fully resizing your brass? How the heck did you manage to bottleneck the cases? What are your case ID measurements versus your boolit measurements, in other words, why don't your boolits have a slight (.002" or so) interference fit upon seating?

You have a procedural issue with your sizing process, and probably one with your seating/"crimping" process as well. Boolits with rounded, undersized bases don't help much, either.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Did you spraypaint it?

Looks like it was in a fire.

I'm thinking Frankford Arsenal mould release spray? Don't know, never used the stuff. It could explain the grossly undersized boolits from the first batch, though, especially if that's what was used and it was put on to thick.

Mould release spray might also explain all the casting difficulty and defects with fillout, any substance like smoke or graphite in a mould will insulate and cause poor fillout if overdone.

Also......now that you mention it, it might explain the out-of-roundness Tayous was complaining about as well. If teh mould release is caked up on the mating surfaces of the blocks, it will prevent their full closure, thus making out-of-round boolits.

What ever it is, it's ugly and needs to go away completely until there's nothing but clean, degreased, shiny aluminum remaining on the blocks. The sprue plate is fine the way it is, Lee anodizes them, although it looks like it needs a film of Bullplate sprue lube on it.

Gear

[tayous1]

Looks like it was in a fire.

I'm thinking Frankford Arsenal mould release spray? Don't know, never used the stuff. It could explain the grossly undersized boolits from the first batch, though, especially if that's what was used and it was put on to thick.

Mould release spray might also explain all the casting difficulty and defects with fillout, any substance like smoke or graphite in a mould will insulate and cause poor fillout if overdone.

Also......now that you mention it, it might explain the out-of-roundness Tayous was complaining about as well. If teh mould release is caked up on the mating surfaces of the blocks, it will prevent their full closure, thus making out-of-round boolits.

What ever it is, it's ugly and needs to go away completely until there's nothing but clean, degreased, shiny aluminum remaining on the blocks. The sprue plate is fine the way it is, Lee anodizes them, although it looks like it needs a film of Bullplate sprue lube on it.

Gear

Yes I used Frankford Arsenal mould release spray on it. I was told by so many people the stuff was great. I'll take it all off and see if that helps at all. The two photos of the brass that looks bottle necked there the first two I did as I have done lead rounds before I know they take a little more pull to get them in the brass so when I pulled the boolit fell in the brass easy and the brass it the to of the seating die and that is how they came out. The last over all length on the caliper was around 1.265 before they would fall through the brass like that.

[geargnasher]

Aha, the rest of the story.

I still can't make any sense out of what you're saying about seating.

Are you full-length sizing your brass or not?

Have you adjusted the body of your seating die like Doby and I instructed?

It's like you're putting the wrong caliber boolit in the brass, something is WAY off.

Gear

[myfriendis410]

Another possible problem would be over-belling the case mouth, and with undersized bullets, they'd drop down with no control over seating depth. You might not see that with bullets sized larger than the ones you cast.

[tayous1]

Aha, the rest of the story.

I still can't make any sense out of what you're saying about seating.

Are you full-length sizing your brass or not?

Have you adjusted the body of your seating die like Doby and I instructed?

It's like you're putting the wrong caliber boolit in the brass, something is WAY off.

Gear

Yes I'm full length sizing the brass. Now I ask a question would it matter is the brass was not belled? Yes I adjusted the body of my seating die. I always start out as high as it can go raise the brass and bullet or boolits up then adjust by hand until it is on top of the round lower the brass and bullet/boolits give half a turn then raise again pull the round out and check with the caliper and repeat until I get to the correct overall length. I start out this way every time I start reloading for any round.

Yes it is like I'm putting the wrong caliber boolit in that's why I thought it was a casting problem. The mold I'm using is a LEE MOLD 6 CAV TL452-230-2R so it should work!? Thanks for the help. I got the mold clean going to let it dry tonight and after work try casting a few more boolits I'll let the mold sit on the hot plate for 20 mins before I start casting to warm it up.

[Doby45]

The only thing that would be crimping your neck like that is the crimp die not adjusted properly. A boolit "slipping" into a piece of brass will not cause the neck to crimp. I would also beg for a more focused picture so we can see the detail. As it sits it is like looking at the pic through a Coke bottle bottom.

[mpmarty]

Take one fired case. Full length size it. run it into the bell mouth die and give it a slight visible bell on the case mouth. put the seating/crimping die in the press and with the case in the shell holder run it all the way up without screwing the die down into the top of the press. Now screw the die down on top of the fully raised brass until you feel it touch the brass now turn it down half a turn more and raise the case into the die all the way until the ram stops. remove the brass and look at it. The bell should be gone and the case mouth should be straight. If so, LOCK DOWN THE DIE with the locking collar. Now size and prime a belled case, charge it with powder and lightly press a boolit into the mouth of the case. UNSCREW the seating die stem several full turns and seat the boolit. Now screw in the stem a bit at a time to seat the boolit deeper without moving the die itself. The die is still backed out one full turn. When you are within 1/14th of an inch of your desired OAL turn the seating die in one turn and finish seating and crimping. See what you get. 1/14th" = 0.0714

[geargnasher]

Yes I'm full length sizing the brass. Now I ask a question would it matter is the brass was not belled? I thought you said you read your Lyman book. Yes I adjusted the body of my seating die. I always start out as high as it can go raise the brass and bullet or boolits up then adjust by hand until it is on top of the round lower the brass and bullet/boolits give half a turn then raise again pull the round out and check with the caliper and repeat until I get to the correct overall length. I start out this way every time I start reloading for any round. I think you still don't understand the difference about setting the BODY of the die, which has the crimp ledge in it, in one step and setting the SEATING PLUG ADJUSTER in a seperate operation. This would explain the bottlenecking, either that or you're using Lee dies and that's the carbide post-sizer ring of death making the swage.

Yes it is like I'm putting the wrong caliber boolit in that's why I thought it was a casting problem. The mold I'm using is a LEE MOLD 6 CAV TL452-230-2R so it should work!? Thanks for the help. I got the mold clean going to let it dry tonight and after work try casting a few more boolits I'll let the mold sit on the hot plate for 20 mins before I start casting to warm it up.

Resize/deprime, adjust the sizer die until it just barely touches the shelplate when the ram is fully up. Run the case into the expander die until a slight bellmouth forms, enough to start a boolit that has a sharp base without shaving any lead off. Back your seater die body off until it's about 1/4" off the shellplate when the ram is fully up. Screw down the seater stem adjuster until you can seat the boolit to your desired overall length WITHOUT CRIMPING AT ALL. That means there will still be a flare to the mouth of the case, but the boolit will be seated to the overall length you desire. NOW, take the seater plug completely out of the seater die, and adjust the body until you can crimp the case mouth just enough to remove the bellmouth. Lock the lockring. Run the cartridge back into the die fully, reinstall the seater plug and adjuster, screw down the adjuster until it touches the boolit firmly. DONE. Do this and post a pic of the "dummy".

If you have a Lee carbide die set and are seating with the factory crimp die, remove the seater plug and adjuster and throw the die body in the trashcan. Install the seater plug and adjuster screw in the seating die, and use the taper-crimp ledge built into that die for your crimping needs. The FCD carbide ring is no good for cast boolits.

Gear

[Doby45]

Keep the die body of the FCD, only for sizing brass through it in a push through way.

[geargnasher]

+1 Marty.

Tayous, if you have the 3rd edition Lyman Cast Bullet Hanbook, go to page 34 and look at the illustration at the top of the page. You will be adding a step six to the process, where the bellmouth is ironed-out by the crimp die, or included in step five if your die is adjusted correctly. Now tell us where your process is breaking down. Use your micrometer and check the interference fit of the boolit, compare the ID of the case to the OD of the boolit.

Gear

[giz189]

Yes I adjusted the body of my seating die. I always start out as high as it can go raise the brass and bullet or boolits up then adjust by hand until it is on top of the round lower the brass and bullet/boolits give half a turn then raise again pull the round out and check with the caliper and repeat until I get to the correct overall length. I start out this way every time I start reloading for any round.

. I believe this tells us what is wrong. He must have the seater stem screwed all the way out and his die screwed all the way down.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Need a pic of the seater die in the press, adjusted the way you think it should be.

[prs]

tayous1;

Things will get better as you go along. For now, clean that mould. Take time to get it up to temp before casting and drop a few trail casts before keeping any boolits. If the mold is up to temp, IMHO, the forst cavities filled will still be molten as the last cavity is finsihed filling. Then they should "freeze" within 15 to 20 seconds to be ready to drop out onto soft towelling. Don't keep any until they are uniformly good of appearance. Later, when cooled, cull them by size, getting rid of undersized samples or other flaws. I suspect you are not getting uniform sizes becasue of wide temperature variations. Cast faster with a hotter mould.

I did not catch if your were loading on a single stage, turrette, or progressive. Make sure your other dies are also set by the book. I am like Gear about setting the seater/crimp die. That die should just barely return the flared case to straight and then set it for correct boolit depth in case. Unlike Gear, I won't throw the Lee Factory Crimp die; I use it to make sure I have no "fat" loads, but I don't try to correct "fat" loads with it. I correct the probblem that led up to getting an over sized round if I can figure it out. In my case, it is usually the nut behind the handle.

BTW; a third and very easy method to set the seating/crimp die can be accomplished if you have a pristine factory round that fits your gun well. Put that round in the shell holder and raise it into the empty die holder. Screw out the seater plug all the way, then screw down teh die body to just make positive contact with the factory round. Then screw the seater plug in to contct the top of that factory bullet of the factory round. Then your re-loads should be very close to the factory sample, only very minor tweeking, if any, needed.

prs

[tayous1]

cast a few more last night with the clean mold I let the mold sit on the hot plate for about 30 mins before using. The boolits came out a lot sharper looking and cleaner I'll post some photos later today and measure them all.

[Echo]

Yes I used Frankford Arsenal mould release spray on it. I was told by so many people the stuff was great. I'll take it all off and see if that helps at all.

Tayous, you are making good progress. But I doubt if ANYONE on this Forum said the Frankford stuff was great. I'll bet your latest boolits will do what you want.

I've learned more from the folks on this forum than I had in the 40+ years before. This is where the boolit caster should go for all casting information. This forum has more correct information about boolit casting than most any gun shop. Will see you around.

[mdi]

Have the book and read it. The seating is not the problem I have reloaded around 5.000 round and never had this problem before! Like I said I have reloaded over 1,000 45 ACP rounds from lead, FMJ and JHP. This is the first time I have had this problem and it was with using the cast boolits! I loaded 25 lead round that I bought and 25 JHP and had no problems loading and seating them like I said before! So why I'm I having problems seating my boolits?!

If I would have screwed up on the Lead and JHP I bought then I would have known it was me doing something wrong in the reloading part. Yet my other rounds came out fine as they had before! So if two bullets seat and load fine and the boolits don't seat I guess the problem is my reloading? Not the boolits?


As I said when I was seating them if I tried to seat them less the 1.265 they would seat to far! Now I'm not some *** at reloading and when I first started reloading my problem was going over the COL. I'm just trying to find the problem it's not my reloading unless cast boolits seat and load another way that bought lead bullets don't? If that's so I'd like to know! I'm guessing it's the same so if I can seat and load bought lead round and JHP why can't I do the boolits I made?

Problem is the boolits not my reloading skills! I will take the hit on my boolits skills needing work because this is my first batch. But I will not take the hit on my reloading skills since I have done it a few times without any problems.

No offence intended, but re-read the answers above (geargnasher especially). No on is knocking you, just trying to help! From the photos the crimp die is waaayyy too deep , looks like mebbe 1/4". I can see the crimp down on the side of the case. A taper crimp on a 45 ACP isn't noticeable, just enough to take out the flare. Re-read. And if the problem isn't your reloaing style/techniques, whose is it?

[Hanzerik]

I set my COL totally backwards from Gear but my results are exactly the same.

1. Insert belled piece of brass in shell holder.

...SNIP...

Thats how I seat/crimp my .45 ACP rounds and have never ran into a problem. For .44Mag & roll crimping I seat and crimp in two different steps.

ETA: I'm sure it wouldn't mater, but would his mold blocks being mounted backwards on the handles cause any of his issues?

[geargnasher]

Thats how I seat/crimp my .45 ACP rounds and have never ran into a problem. For .44Mag & roll crimping I seat and crimp in two different steps.

ETA: I'm sure it wouldn't mater, but would his mold blocks being mounted backwards on the handles cause any of his issues?

Good catch! I was looking at the cavities, not the configuration, but you're sure right about the handles being mounted backwards. It shouldn't matter as far as getting the mould to close, but it would sure make getting the mould under the spout a pain, not to mention the loss of leverage when cutting the sprues. I don't remember if the mounting screws are centered or slightly offset, my memory seems to think that the mounting screws are offset slightly to the proper handle end, but I could be wrong. If they are offset, the blocks could bind on the base of the handle tongs were they start to curve toward the scissor bolt.

One problem some people encounter with the handles mounted correctly is gripping all three at once, and this forces the cam handle to bear against the stop, which can force the blocks open slightly at the rear. Oversized, out of round boolits at one end of the mould is the common complaint here.

About the seating die adjustment procedure I posted, I do the opposite myself most of the time, but like I explained there is less opportunity to screw it up the way I explained. It ruins the first crimp, but I instructed to use a dummy round anyway, and once the crimp is set, it's set, no need to back the die body out a second time and risk messing up the original setting. Big difference between an experienced person setting it and a newbie. It would take a page and a half to describe what most of us do in about five second during a routine die adjustment.

Gear

[Hanzerik]

One problem some people encounter with the handles mounted correctly is gripping all three at once, and this forces the cam handle to bear against the stop, which can force the blocks open slightly at the rear. Oversized, out of round boolits at one end of the mould is the common complaint here.

That was my problem with the RD mold I bought. It was my first mold and I figured you had to hold all three handles tightly. When I went to size they were pretty tight and hard to push through the sizer. All of the bands were squished down pretty bad. Saw someone post what you did and changed my handle holding technique and walla, great looking bullets. I did have another problem with the rear of the Bullet being smaller, but up the temp a little and cleaned the bottom pour spout and it looks to have fixed that problem. Now I just need to control myself and not cast so fast...I start to get some really frosty bullets after a couple minutes.

[geargnasher]

Voila', it's French!:grin:

Gear

[462]

With the mould mounted the wrong way round, holding the sprue cutter handle doesn't come into play, though it makes for awkward operation. In addition to causing the mould blocks to part, holding the handle can mis-align the sprue cutter holes and the cavities, which might induce improper lead flow and fillout.

The mould's mounting holes are centered, so there shouldn't be any binding issue.

[tayous1]

Problem fixed it was the spray on ****. All the boolits I cast the night before measure at the base at 0.452 was the smallest and most where 0.454 going to load a few up today and see how they shoot.

[geargnasher]

Glad to hear that, but until you figure out why you're making bottleneck brass, you haven't fixed the whole problem. Please don't blow yourself up because of insufficient case tension on your boolits. I hope you read and understood what I said before about boolits working deeper into the cases under recoil in the magazine, short-seated boolits WILL cause you to have a bad day if you fire one.

Gear

[Huntducks]

I'm LMAO reading some of the BS posted here your problem is basic loading 101

Gee look at the bell in the case mouth and were the crimp is.