Best Copper Solvent?

[Cayoot]

I've been working on getting the copper fouling out of some of my Milsurps. I've chosen three of them to be for shooting cast boolits only.

The problem is getting all the copper fouling out. I've been working on a M-44 and a French MAS for over a week now and have gone through almost a whole bottle of Hoppes #9 Bench Rest Copper Solvent. I'm still getting way too much green on my patches after I use a wet patch, brass brush, wet patch again followed by a few dry patches. I usually use about 20 patches each night, then saturate the bore and let it soak over night and the next day. When I get home from work, I start the whole process again.

Is there a better solvent?

I'm not in a position to purchase a foul-out and all the stuff to support it. Besides, I should be able to get these bores clean manually....right?

So do you guys have any opinion on what the best copper solvent is?

Any other tips/advice (other than spending lots of $$ or trying to build something fancy and electrical that will probably get a clumsy ox like me killed?)?

Thanks

Signed....desperatly soaked in Copper in the Frozen North Woods!

[Junior1942]

Get rid of the brass brush and use stainless steel. Brass is made of copper.

[Cayoot]

You gotta be kidding me!?!?!?!!?

You mean I've been re-infecting my bbl each time I brush it!?!?!?!?!

No wonder I can't get the dumb stuff out!!!!!:confused:

[Maven]

Cayoot, If you can find a nylon brush use it, as stainless steel, though effective, is a bit harsh.* If you can find Sweet's 7.62 (strong ammonia, but not watery) use it and make sure you follow the instructions. After several applications (and lots of blue patches!), run a clean patch soaked with isopropyl/rubbing alcohol through the bbl., then follow with a liberal dosing of Hoppe's Cu Solvent.

*I don't use brushes, merely lots of patches soaked with Sweet's and Hoppe's Cu Solvent.

[Cayoot]

Cayoot, If you can find a nylon brush use it, as stainless steel, though effective, is a bit harsh.* If you can find Sweet's 7.62 (strong ammonia, but not watery) use it and make sure you follow the instructions. After several applications (and lots of blue patches!), run a clean patch soaked with isopropyl/rubbing alcohol through the bbl., then follow with a liberal dosing of Hoppe's Cu Solvent.

*I don't use brushes, merely lots of patches soaked with Sweet's and Hoppe's Cu Solvent.

Thanks Maven....I've always thought Stnlss Steel brushes were too harsh also.

So you recommend BOTH Sweets & Hoppes eh?

I never heard of using the rubbing alcohol b4, but I'm going to do it.

What is the purpose of the rubbing alcohol?

Thanks

Bary

[Maven]

Cayoot, I use the rubbing alcohol to remove any traces of the Sweet's, although you can probably omit it. The Hoppe's, over a period of time, will remove any Cu that the Sweet's missed.

[Ken O]

I got lots of different copper solvents, I think the Sweets is the most aggressive. I use a soaked patch a couple strokes or so and let it sit about a half hour. Then use a brush a few strokes followed by some dry patches. And yes, a copper bush will deposit some copper and show up on the patch again. I use the nylon when using Sweets, and brass for normal cleaning.

[Cayoot]

Now you guys really got me thinking (a task that my wife would describe as a miracle!).

Not only was my brush bronze, but my jag is too! Man! I'm wondering how much blue was just from my own equipment!!!

Looks like tomorrow I'll be looking for a nylon brush, Nylon Jag, and Sweets 7.62. Might as well buy another bottle of Hoppes Bench Rest...as this one is just about empty:(

Thanks for the help!

[carpetman]

Cayoot---I like Hoppes,but I like Ed's Red better. Buy one quart each of these 4 items(1)ATF(2)Mineral spirits or turpentine(3)acetone (4)kerosene you can also add a blob of anhydrous lanolin to the mix to help prevent rusting. I mixed mine and store it in a Coleman fuel can and keep that in the storage shed. I keep an empty Hoppes bottle filled with what I use and refill as needed. Will cost you a few bucks to make the initial batch but a gallon goes a long ways. You will probably get as many modifications to this as there are to Felix lube---mine is probably modified as I think type ATF is specified and it was originally whale sperm. I didnt have whales so thats what I used. Hurricane lamp fuel can be substituted for the lerosene but costs more. Any rate you got a gallon for what you would pay for a few ounces.

[Cayoot]

Thanks Carpetman.
I have been making and using Ed's Red for a number of years now. I usually have a few gallons lying around.

However, Ed himself wrote (IIRC) that while this solvent is great for most cleaning, it doesn't remove lead or copper fouling.

That's why I'm using a copper solvent. All my guns are maintained by Ed's Red, but the blue on the patches that I get from using straight copper solvent is a verification of what Ed wrote about his concoctions' limitations.

Bary

[ebner glocken]

For heavy fouling I tried "blue wonder" that is sold by midway. Stuff comes in a toothpaste tube and is a jel. I wouldn't leave it in a barrel very long cause you can smell the amonia for a mile. Works well though.

[grumpy one]

Cayoot---I like Hoppes,but I like Ed's Red better. Buy one quart each of these 4 items(1)ATF(2)Mineral spirits or turpentine(3)acetone (4)kerosene you can also add a blob of anhydrous lanolin to the mix to help prevent rusting.


Just in case you guys still have both "normal" and "odorless" kerosene, as we do here, this is a reminder to use the odorless stuff. Otherwise you won't be happy using this brew even in a ventilated area; it smells worse than an ape's armpit.

Geoff

[Junior1942]

Cayoot, since the barrel will be cast-only after you get the copper fouling out, don't worry about a stainless brush being harsh for a one time cleaning job. Use a SS brush with #9 this one time and get the copper out. Next time use nylon or brass. Use enough lube and keep fps low and never clean the barrel again.

[waksupi]

Ever heard of Blue Goop? Something that should be dear to all our hearts, as it is very cheap. Benchrest shooters have been using it for years.
Go to your local janitor supply. Ask for a jug of strong ammonia. This stuff is around 5%, as opposed to around 1 1/2% for household stuff.
Put a piece of copper wire in the jug, until it turns a nice blue, then remove the wire. I don't recall exactly what the copper wire does, but it does make the stuff have an afffinity for removing copper from a barrel.
So, for well under ten bucks, you have a gallon of copper remover. How much do those little bottles you get from the sporting goods store cost? And guess what? For the most part, it is the same formula, that the companies picked up on some years back. Just like Ed's Red is now commercially available.

[Cayoot]

Junior
Thanks....I think you are probably right....I will try the stainless brush since it is a one time use.

Waksupi,

Thanks for the tip....I'm going to see if I can find a source for strong Amonia...we live in a small town with no large towns close enough to drive to with in a couple hours.

Hopefully I'll be able to locate some.

Thanks guys....I'm getting my hope back!

Bary

[lovedogs]

I've been testing copper removers for many years 'cuz we shoot lots of prairie dogs hereabouts and things get well plated sometimes. Sweet's is good. Barnes CR-10 is better. But the best I've found to date is Montana Extreme Copper Killer-50BMG Special Formula. You can do simple tests by laying a penny in a puddle on a piece of toilet paper and see which is faster and stronger. Follow the instructions on the "Extreme" and use a nylon brush and I doubt you'll find any better. NEVER EVER use a stainless brush! Use nylon and flush with spray degreaser. Works for me!

[Ricochet]

Strong ammonia is the best stuff. I can't get it, though, since the %^$#& drug cops went around to all the stores and told them to tell anybody they didn't have regular contracts with that they didn't have it, to get a description and tag number if they could and call them, as they were meth makers. None of the Lowe's, Home Depot type places carry it, and the big janitorial supply places' sales people look at me like I came from Venus and stammer that they don't have anything like that, and try to see what I get into to drive off. I'm stuck with the household stuff, which works well if used regularly.

[Nelsdou44]

I used to use Sweets, but now I've switched to a product called Wipeout, comes out of the spray can as a foam, and you let it soak in the bore for a few hours. Works great on copper. I use other solvents to get powder fouling out first then the Wipeout on the copper.

Nels

[Charley]

I like Butch's Bore Shine. For REALY bad milsurp bores, i use this:http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

[curator]

I use regular 2% amonia household cleaner to remove copper barrel fouling. First remove all the oil and nitro powder fouling with acetone or similar solvent. Next, plug the muzzle and fill the bore with 2% ammonia cleaner. Let it sit over night and then pull muzzle plug. The blue stuff that pours out is most of the copper fouling. For really fouled bores you may need to repeat the process a couple of times to get all the copper out. Most improtant, the 2% ammonia won't hurt your bore like 7-10% ammonia might. Solutions of less than 8% ammonia will not etch your barrel. This sure beats using 100 patches over 5-7 nights to get the copper out!

[Cayoot]

I do have a gallon around the house of the 2% stuff....now I'll just think of a plug that would work and I'll be in business!:-D

[Ringer]

Last summer I received a complimentary tube of Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner at a bullseye match. I tried it on my .45acp that I shoot Ball ammo through, and I have never seen any product that cleans the bore of copper better. A couple passes with the gel on a brass brush, and a patch follow up, and the bore was clean. This
was after about 200 rounds of 230gn FMJ ammo. I really like it. Regards, Ringer

[Ricochet]

The best way to plug a barrel is to cap the muzzle with a cane tip. They're sold in drug stores. The ones for quad canes work perfectly on most sporter and milsurp barrels. One for a single tip cane works perfectly on my fat barreled Savage varminter. (Chair leg tips won't work, they don't seal well enough.) Slip the tip on the muzzle, stand the rifle on it and fill it from the breech up to the chamber with ammonia. With small bores it may take a little while to get all the air out of the bore. I let it stand for an hour and drain the pretty blue ammonia-complexed copper out, then clean normally. It gets out copper-nickel fouling from Turkish military ammo, too!

I think the only kind of steel you can etch with ammonia is stainless, or other steels with a high nickel content. It's not corrosive to iron per se. Nickel complexes with it as copper does, but in occasional brief exposures with household ammonia I haven't seen a problem with my stainless Savage. It's certainly got less potential for harm than some of the electrolytic processes I've seen recommended!

[Cayoot]

WOW! Great tip Ricochet! Thanks...I'm gonna go buy some quad cane tips tomorrow!

[JudgeBAC]

I'm with Lovedogs ,Montana Extreme Copper Killer-50BMG Special Formula, is great stuff. Also Montana Extreme Cowboy Blend is the best for lead. These folks make great stuff. It was previously made right up the road from me in Morganton, North Carolina before they sold out to another company.

[monadnock#5]

I've been testing copper removers for many years 'cuz we shoot lots of prairie dogs hereabouts and things get well plated sometimes. Sweet's is good. Barnes CR-10 is better. But the best I've found to date is Montana Extreme Copper Killer-50BMG Special Formula. You can do simple tests by laying a penny in a puddle on a piece of toilet paper and see which is faster and stronger. Follow the instructions on the "Extreme" and use a nylon brush and I doubt you'll find any better. NEVER EVER use a stainless brush! Use nylon and flush with spray degreaser. Works for me!


I read a review in Gun Tests on chemical copper removers several years ago. Their pick was the 50 B.M.G. mentioned above used with nylon bore brushes. On their referral I purchased a bottle. I wish that I could tell whether or not it's effective, from my own experience, but I can't. What I can tell you is that it CANNOT be used indoors. The ammonia odor is absolutely horrible. It is evil, ugly and noxious. Sweets squared. Now that I have learned the importance of cleaning all traces of jacketing from a bore in which cast will be used, I'll try the Montana X-treme. But not 'till next summer on a day featuring a stiff breeze from the sou'west. :wink:

[jonk]

I really have to go with Outers Foaming bore cleaner. Fill the bore, let it sit for about 2 hours, and a bluish paste comes out. Only once have I had to repeat. The foam is, bar none, the best- it stays where it is put, gets into every pit and cranny, and a can does a LOT of guns considering the volume outlay.

Wipe out is a similar product and would produce (I think) similar results.

[charger 1]

Wipeout

[tom barthel]

I'm a LONG way from being an expert but, the outers foam works great for me. I stand my rifle upside down on a piece of paper or card board and fill the bore with foam. I find something to do for a while then recheck the rifle. I run a few patches through the barrel and put the rifle back in the safe. That's as space age as I get. Seems to work great.

[duke76]

I shoot a 50 BMG and they are terrible for copper fouling, what I found works the best is 26% ammonia with a couple of drops of Dawn dishwashing soap about a 10-1 ratio. You will definetly have to do this outside and stand upwind, this stuff will definetly clean your sinuses. You can find the 26% ammonia at a blueprint shop and costs around 10 bucks a gallon. It helps if you know the owner of the shop so he doesn't think you are making meth. I cant take credit for the recipe, that came from the FCSA, but trust me this stuff is way cheaper and works just as good as Montana Extreme 50 BMG.

[felix]

10-1 does not sound right. 10 drops of 23 %, 1 drop of soap? ... felix

[nelsonted1]

I never thought of a cane tip! But I don't have one of them laying around. Think a condom would work?

[Beau Cassidy]

charger1 is right. Wipeout with accelerator. After you use it once you will say to yourself "Dang. I THOUGHT I had gotten all of the copper out."

[Bigscot]

I have too go with Chargar on Wipeout. That is the best stuff. Fill the bore and leave for up to 24 hours.
I find it works better if you just spray it in a dirty barrel without any precleaning to remove any powder fouling. I think the fouling helps hold the Wipeout against the bore and makes for better cleaning.

Great stuff!

Bigscot

[duke76]

Alright I double checked the recipe for the copper solvent. 2 Tablespoons Ivory unscented soap.and1Pint of 26% ammonia. Any soap would probably work, it just makes the ammonia work on the copper instead of just beading up on the surface.

[PatMarlin]

Outers FoulOut II.

[georgeld]

By far the best bore cleaner made is Blue Wonder gun cleaner.

Ten strokes with bronze brush, ten minute break, ten more strokes
then patch it clean.
IF that don't get it all, do it a second time and it will.

Just make damned sure you oil all the metal it touches or else it'll draw moisture and rust it in a flash. so have the oil there handy all the time you're working with it.

I left it in and on a barrel over night and it looked like it'd been out in the rain for weeks. But, wiped it on again and cleaned it all right off to the metal and then I oiled it up right.

I was given two old guns in Ga. in '04, that had been never cleaned in yrs and kept in a barn, or screened back porch. They were a rusted up mess. After working them over with blue wonder they looked real good. Then oiled 'em up good and they're still that way after setting a yr in the corner. But, it's dry up here in CO.

This stuff will take ALL fouling out, plastic, lead, copper, powder, you name it.
BUT: make sure you don't get it on the wood, the finish will be gone before you can wipe it off.

IF you have an ugly old oil soaked stock this is the stuff to clean that out with too.

For a free sample, contact Ken at Blue Wonder, he'll send you a free tube to try.

Give it a try, you won't go back to the other stuff.

[PatMarlin]

Yah- I keep Blue Wonder and Sweets on my bench also. Use em both for shoot clean barrel breakin too. First with the Blue Wonder to get the most of it, then finish with the sweets cause it turns blue and tells you when the copper's out.

I've had a few real stubborn bores, and the only thing that completely got the copper out was the electronic foulout. That's after hours and hours with the cleaners above.

[Bad Flynch]

>Go to your local janitor supply. Ask for a jug of strong ammonia. This stuff is around 5%, as opposed to around 1 1/2% for household stuff.<

Actually, real old-fashioned Stronger Ammonia was 28% and the Household stuff was all 10%. Nowadays, to cheapen stuff up, I see the cheaper brands with 5% or less. You can buy a Sudsy Ammonia that might help get it into the cracks and crevices a little easier.

The ammonia forms a cupro-ammonium complex ion that is soluble, and that is the blue color. It becomes green as it oxidizes. Really agressive cleaners, like the old FA formula for cupro-nickel fouling, had an oxidizer in it, too, to really speed things up (Ammonium Persulfate).

[Ricochet]

Really agressive cleaners, like the old FA formula for cupro-nickel fouling, had an oxidizer in it, too, to really speed things up (Ammonium Persulfate).

And that will eat your barrel if you're not really careful. Plain aqueous ammonia is noncorrosive to carbon steel.

[swheeler]

The local Hardware store sells Ace Ammonia, janitorial strength formula, 10% ammonium hydroxide, seems to work about a well as Sweets, 4.49 gallon.

[Cayoot]

The local Hardware store sells Ace Ammonia, janitorial strength formula, 10% ammonium hydroxide, seems to work about a well as Sweets, 4.49 gallon.


I'll check ACE.
I tried the cheap way out....as one poster on this thread suggested, just filling the bbl with household ammonia and using a cane tip as the stopper.

The cane tip worked like a charm!:-D However; after 30 hours sitting in my bbl, the ammonia came out clear and made no noticible difference in the copper still in my bbl.:(

I'm going to try the stuff at the ACE hdwre after Christmas.

Thanks

[Ricochet]

I have searched all over the Web and Ace's 10% ammonia was the only halfway reasonably priced ammonia stronger than the wimpy household stuff I could find. Unfortunately, it's a 20 mile drive to an Ace Hardware store from here. Haven't gotten around to it.

[felix]

Find a farmer using a local fertilizer shed for orders, find a blueprint supply house. ... felix

[eka]

Ricochet,

I went to the ACE in Abingdon out on Rt. 19. They didn't have the 10% in stock and had to order it. Took a week and I bought a case. At first they kinda gave me that look like I was some meth lab freak. Anyway, the stuff works very well and is CHEAP.

Keith

[MtGun44]

If the metal (copper or nickel) is really bad, the easiest is the electroplating
method. Homemade units have been described on the web, but I use a
Outers Foul Out II - extremely good for lead removal also. Nothing I have
ever tried has removed lead half as fast from pistol barrels, and copper and
nickel come out well. One warning - an old 1917 Enfield had layers of nickel
followed by insulating layers of black gook (probably some sort of powder
fouling). Had to plate until it stopped, then scrub out a layer of black crude
with conventional solvents (Hoppes #9, etc) and then clean and replate. That
one gun took 3 cycles. I figured it had never been actually fully cleaned, and
the barrel date was 1918, back when the military issue ammo used nickel
jackets. I am currently about to give up on a Turk 8mm and go to the
electroplater after about 10 days of conventional solvents. Lots of black
gook in that one, also. Black guck actually hangs down (stands up?) after a vigorous scrubbing with a bronze brush!

Solvents work great most of the time, but for the really heavy duty jobs,
the reverse electroplater is the way to go.

Bill

[RGRWJB]

I like Slip 2000 for a carbon solvent. Its water based and great for black powder or corrosive ammo.

I also use bulk Hamster bedding which is made up of cracked walnut shells. A 15lb bag is only $5 at most pet stores.

Great for cleaning up dirty old cases in the tumbler.

[Cayoot]

I like Slip 2000 for a carbon solvent. Its water based and great for black powder or corrosive ammo.

I also use bulk Hamster bedding which is made up of cracked walnut shells. A 15lb bag is only $5 at most pet stores.

Great for cleaning up dirty old cases in the tumbler.

I've never heard of Slip 2000...do they have a web site?

[Ricochet]

Hey eka, I know where that ACE in Abingdon is, now that you mention it. There's another in Johnson City. I get down that way a bit more often. Too bad the one here closed down.

[billw]

I've been working on getting the copper fouling out of some of my Milsurps. I've chosen three of them to be for shooting cast boolits only.

The problem is getting all the copper fouling out. I've been working on a M-44 and a French MAS for over a week now and have gone through almost a whole bottle of Hoppes #9 Bench Rest Copper Solvent. I'm still getting way too much green on my patches after I use a wet patch, brass brush, wet patch again followed by a few dry patches. I usually use about 20 patches each night, then saturate the bore and let it soak over night and the next day. When I get home from work, I start the whole process again.

Is there a better solvent?

I'm not in a position to purchase a foul-out and all the stuff to support it. Besides, I should be able to get these bores clean manually....right?

So do you guys have any opinion on what the best copper solvent is?

Any other tips/advice (other than spending lots of $$ or trying to build something fancy and electrical that will probably get a clumsy ox like me killed?)?

Thanks

Signed....desperatly soaked in Copper in the Frozen North Woods!
SS brushes do work well but I don't use them routinely. I would soak the bore with Kroil, patch out after the SS brushing. For all practical purposes any CB lube should help clean out Cu and Pb fouling when light loads are used. Sweet's 7.62 solvent is better but be sure to remove it completely after using it as it will pit your pits.
CB lube is an "anti-flux" that will prevent Cu/Pb fouling from sticking to the bore and works better if the bbl is hot to the touch. Beeswax, anhydrous lanolin, Neat's-foot oil and other polar compounds are the main polar compounds that work better than paraffin or petroleum non-polar compounds. Once seasoned, the bore should stay clean.

[newfoundlander]

Curious that there's not much mention in this string about JB and Kroil! I realise the topic is about the best copper "solvent" but in my experience JB is the best at targeting problem areas. Also, when used in conjuntion with Kroil JB cuts right through alternating layers of plated powder and copper. Many of the most agressive copper solvents are simply useless when it comes to hardened embedded powder/carbon. I have an Outers Foul Out II which is the cat's ass for copper and lead removal but you still need to attack caked powder seperately and put the bore through another cycle to get it completely clean.

[Ricochet]

Ammonia works on that stratified copper and carbon. Especially with a little soap in it.

Kroil is what I use to help loosen lead.

[Cayoot]

I've never used Kroil....is it a cleaner? An Oil?

[billw]

Kroil is an oil used to penetrate carbon and other fouling. It will penetrate to loosen screws and bolts if they are rusted but may take a long time to work. I don't know what it is but it appears closely related to diesel fuel.

[Cayoot]

Do you use it as a primary cleaner (like I use Ed's Red?)

[C1PNR]

Do you use it as a primary cleaner (like I use Ed's Red?)
You can, but if you're making your own Ed's Red the Kroil is a lot more expensive.

I use the Kroil for certain, special cases where I feel I need a penetrating oil/cleaner.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Dont fill the barrel with solvent and plug it,

WE learned along time ago shooting service rifle that Sweets or any of the other stuff need O2 to work just soak the barrel with a few wet patches let it set open to the air for 15 to 20 mins you get blue patches looks like blue snot!

Kenny Wasserburger
2006 NRA Creedmoor Scope National Champion

[Ricochet]

Well, Kenny, I'm reporting what works well in my experience.

Do as you like. I'll do likewise.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I worked for 17 years as an organic Chemist in one of the largest surface coal mines in the world. Boilers at power plants have trouble with Copper plating in places where they don't want it.

Here is some old chemistry notes I dug up.

The short story is you need all the oxidizer you can get or plan old air to speed the process, drowning it in the solvent actually slows the process. Less oxidation.

Chemical–mechanical polishing (CMP) (removeal of) of thin copper films in ammonia-containing slurries has been investigated. The copper film polish rate, (or removal or etching) measured in a Strausbaugh 6CA polisher, increases with NH4OH concentration up to 0.3% by weight and then levels off. The addition of an extra oxidizer, NaClO3, increases the polish rate substantially, from 250 nm/min in the absence of the oxidizer to 460 nm/min at 0.1 M NaClO3. (so for the rest of us humans oxidizers almost double the removal rate!)

Note from Versol Company, on how to remove copper from boilers in Industry after using their solvent to remove iron deposits:

Aqua Ammonia is used for this, Passivation and simultaneous, removal of copper and copper oxide deposits are accomplished by the controlled addition of and oxidizing agent to the solvent. The Prefered oxidizing agent for copper removal/Passivation is either gasesous oxygen or 35% Hydrogen peroxide. Sodium nitrate, AIR, and combinations of these oxidizing agents have been used successfully on numerous occasions.

Since I dont like to use Hydrogen peroxide in my barrels and have run short on Gasesous Oxygen and Sodium nitrate I will stick to good old Air.

Sounds a hell of alot like cleaning a barrel to me.

Dont take my world for it.

Fill your barrel pumb full of solvent and a plug.

I usually never answer ya-butts anymore,

But I hate the spread of disinformation.:-?

Kenny Wasserburger

[Ricochet]

Yeah, but, the plugging and filling still works.

I'm not dissing your knowledge, or spreading disinformation. It just works.

Thanks for the additional information!