"Keith" mould??

[RBak]

This is likely a simple trivia question for those more informed, but it has become darn near an issue with a couple of us.

There seems to be some confusion amongst myself and a couple of my shooting pards as to the correct number on the old Lyman mould that Elmer Keith made famous with his .44 magnum loads.

What was that number, the weight that mould threw, and what was "his" load using Unique ? (I hope the consensus is the same as my "bet"....LOL)

Thanks, Russ

[Glen]

The bullet that Elmer Keith designed for the .44 Special in 1928 was the Ideal 429421. It is nominally listed as a 245 grain SWC, although weight will vary a few grains depending on what alloy you cast it out of. His first .44 Special load used this bullet with DuPont #80 powder, which has long since been discontinued. When 2400 was released in 1935, he moved to this powder for his .44 Special loads and used 18.5 grains in the OLD STYLE BALLOON HEAD CASES (THIS LOAD IS NOT SAFE IN MODERN SOLID HEAD CASES!). When he moved to the modern style solid head case he reduced the powder charge to 17.5 grains of 2400. This load will generate 1200+ fps from a 7 1/2" .44 Special, and has been very accurate in every gun I've shot it in. This was Elmer Keith's preferred load for the next 20 years. In 1955, S&W and Remington surprised Elmer Keith and introduced the .44 Magnum. Elmer switched over to the .44 Magnum and never looked back.

Elmer loaded both the .44 Special and .44 Magnum with 2400. The person who made the .44 Special loaded with Unique famous was Skeeter Skelton. Skeeter liked to load the .44 Special with the Lyman 429421 over 7.5 grains of Unique for a little over 900 fps.

[RobS]

Nice write up. The ole 429421 Keith and Blammer or GLL IIRC has a nice photo of all the variants throughout the years.

[Alan]

The info on the bullet is correct.

The loading data below is for historical purposes only. Take it with a grain of salt, etc.

Mr. Keith worked up to 22 grains of Hercules #2400 in .44 magnum cases. He never used magnum primers for this load.

His target load was 8.5 grains of Hercules Unique. He stated in his book Sixguns that he fired hundreds of these for every boomer load. He did NOT like to batter his guns into junk.

NOTES: The burning rates of both #2400 and Unique have been changed over the last couple of decades #2400 now is slightly faster. Unique was altered in the late '70's and again for the "cleaner burning" formula. Pay close attention modern loading data.

Even at that, two shooters I knew for years and were WONDERFUL shots called a halt even below the 22 grain load mentioned above. One stopped at 19 grains, and the other went to 21. Both could hit soda cans at 100 yards pretty consistetnly, and both killed a lot of deer.

My current favorite plinking load w/ 250gr cast bullets is 9.0 grains of "middle" Unique. I have a lot of powder stashed, and haven't gotten to the jugs of "cleaner burning" stuff yet. It is VERY accurate, and will handle 95% of what you want a handgun to handle.

Alan

[RBak]

Thanks folks for the nice replies. I am going to print this off so me and my pards can work out the details of who is going to win the bet....Pizza and Beer ain't going be pocket change for four hungry guys don'tcha know! :shock:

But, so far, I don't see a clear winner.

I may be close, or maybe even closest, with the correct mould number of 429421, and the load of 7.5gr's of Unique.

However, It seems I was also wrong as I had contributed it to Keith, not Skeeter Skelton, and there has never been any discussion among us unknowing about using old style balloon head cases as Glenn mentioned.

Glenn and Alan..... I do appreciate you taking your time to comment.
Robs..... ya gotta link to that information??

Thank you, Russ

[GLL]

Russ:

Here is one of the early IDEAL moulds.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/E574E14FBE964F2/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/2A0E557AD2962DD/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/98111A583CB6C02/standard.jpg

[RobS]

I don't have the link and my recall of this pic could have been the Keith 454424 now that I think about it. Maybe Blammer will hop in here or GLL has some more photos of the day.

[Von Dingo]

Two cent's,

Further down the page in the reloading chapter of Sixguns, after discussing the "working loads" Elmer states a 7.5 grain charge of Unique is a very nice .44 Spc load.

Skeeter always, to my understanding, talked up this load, but it was one of Elmer's loads.

[ColColt]

Russ:

Here is one of the early IDEAL moulds.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/E574E14FBE964F2/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/2A0E557AD2962DD/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/98111A583CB6C02/standard.jpg

I love this bullet and covet it very much. Mine doesn't look quite like it. Each time I see it I lust in my heart...now, who coined that phrase?:D I think it only fair to will it to underdogs like myself and I stand first in line.

[Blammer]

GLL has the pics you are thinking of.

[MtGun44]

You can buy a Mihec 503 clone which is a spitting image of the original Keith design. It
is a great design in a great mold, a joy to use and it shoots very well, indeed. Actually, except
for an overexuberant crimp groove, the RCBS 44-250-K is a really decent interpretation of
Elmer's design.

Bill

[Alan]

If we are talking .44 Spl, then the target load was 7.5 gr. If per the original post, the .44 magnum is under discussion, then 8.5 gr. is correct.

Alan

[telebasher]

I dont think Mr Keith would endorse the mould pictured as an early Ideal 429421. I have read that he specified a square lube groove and three bands of equal width. He was very adamant about his design and became upset that Ideal/Lyman changed his original designs in later mould productions.

[telebasher]

The RCBS version is reportedly the closest currently available stock production mould to Elmer's designs. The Ideal copy along side looks to be authentic and true to his design, the others are close but dont appear to meet his specs. I have a RCBS version and an apparent legitimate copy of the 429421 and other than weight they are ballistic twins as far as my Ruger SBH can tell. Its interesting how Lyman changed the specs over time. Seems my older Moulds cast wonderful boolits of sufficient diameter the new moulds , not so much.

[MtGun44]

telebasher -

The pic shows, near as I can see - and I have looked at and own many variants of the Keith
design, a boolit with a square [flat bottomed] lube groove and three equal width bands;
exactly what Elmer prescribed.

The unapproved changes were primarily a semi-circular cross section lube groove and in several
cases that I have seen, severely narrowed front driving bands. I have seen molds sold by Lyman
that are marked 429421 where the front driving band is literally .020" wide - clearly NOT a
feature that Elmer would endorse.

Looking at the pix in Elmer's books, I can say, he would have been proud of that boolit in
the pic above.

Bill

[Dale53]

telebasher -

The pic shows, near as I can see - and I have looked at and own many variants of the Keith
design, a boolit with a square [flat bottomed] lube groove and three equal width bands;
exactly what Elmer prescribed.

The unapproved changes were primarily a semi-circular cross section lube groove and in several
cases that I have seen, severely narrowed front driving bands. I have seen molds sold by Lyman
that are marked 429421 where the front driving band is literally .020" wide - clearly NOT a
feature that Elmer would endorse.

Looking at the pix in Elmer's books, I can say, he would have been proud of that boolit in
the pic above.

Bill

AMEN!

In later years, Keith endorsed the H&G #503 as "true to his design". That is why I furnished the dimensions from my original H&G #503 for the Mihec versions (Longbow did the cad cam drawings from my dimensions that Mihec used).

I have used the original design Lyman 429421 in great quantity with excellent results. I have also shot some 10,000 bullets from an original H&G #503 that a friend and I purchased together.

For the life of me, I can NOT understand why Lyman messed with the original design, but mess they did...

Dale53

[MtGun44]

Well, Dale, I owe you a big "Thanks!" because that 4 cav Mihec 503 is a joyous thing to cast
with and produces wonderful, accurate, reliable and beautiful boolits.

Thanks for sharing the design! Of course, I DO have a real H&G 503, too but it is only
a double cavity. :-)

Bill

[Dale53]

Bill;
Thanks for the kind words. I just like to help out the brethren...

Dale53

[StrawHat]

I dont think Mr Keith would endorse the mould pictured as an early Ideal 429421. I have read that he specified a square lube groove and three bands of equal width. He was very adamant about his design and became upset that Ideal/Lyman changed his original designs in later mould productions.


What about the pictured mold does not meet the criterea set by EK?

[RBak]

Hey guys, thanks for all the information!

We, my little group of four, have decided we all have a lot to learn when it comes to the "Original Keith Mould", and load. And, we won't be making such silly bets amongst ourselves anymore.

I had the guys over and they read all your posts, and they, for the most part, all said "that's exactly what I was saying" when they each read the thread...old men lie like dogs!!

We did go to the range yesterday and we all made sure we took a .44 along "just because", but mainly because it was decided we should shoot for Pizza & Beer, low score pays....I didn't shoot well, never do, but I didn't end up paying.

Life is good! Thanks!

Russ

[rintinglen]

One of the perk's of getting old, along with having fewer hairs to comb, is that you can remember whatever you want, however you want and still believe you are right.

[ColColt]

One of the perk's of getting old, along with having fewer hairs to comb, is that you can remember whatever you want, however you want and still believe you are right.

I like that. Sounds like something Dennis Hopper would have said.:smile:

[RBak]

One of the perk's of getting old, along with having fewer hairs to comb, is that you can remember whatever you want, however you want and still believe you are right.

Jeesh! I love this, never seen it before and have to wonder why.
You can bet it's going to get used again, and again, and......

Russ

[Moonie]

interesting, I guess there is a break over point. I've never had to comb my eyebrows before now... I guess it's a 40's thing.

I even have hair growing off my ears, not out of, off... :holysheep

No one ever warned me about that

[leadman]

Moonie, you are in for some more big surprises!

I have a Lyman 4 cavity that has the rounded lube groove, but the wide driving bands. Casts a great boolit that shoots very well.

I read once that Lyman changed the lube groove so the boolit would drop out of the mold easier. This it does.

Never have shot one with square lube groove so can't compare them.

looking at the pictures in the old Am. rifleman magazines the nose is long like my Lyman, not shorter and fatter like the current RCBS.

[FN in MT]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h274/montanaguy375/01-18-2007-12-45-33-453_edited-1.jpg

Visited Mr. Keith in late 1979, this was taken in the "cabin" actually a small house, alongside the residence, where he did his writing. I still have a few items from that visit...one is an H&G .44 Keith slug like the one from GLL's mould. He had a box of cast slugs sitting on the floor in a corner..I looked at them...we chatted about the design, etc.

He was the real deal for sure! I'm very happy I got to meet him.

FN in MT

[Von Dingo]

I like that spear behind your right shoulder FN.

[FN in MT]

I like that spear behind your right shoulder FN.

IIRC... A masai spear. Imagine what that IVORY is worth today.

He had sme neat stuff sitting in every corner!

In the main house there was a high end, old British double in .470 Nitro in a corner!! I will never forget that. And on the mantle in the living room his carry M-29 with the steerhead grips. Sitting next to his American Handgunner Award.

Wish I would have taken more pics in the house...but didn't as it seemed impolite.

FN in MT

[Three44s]

It's hard to believe that his son Ted is gotta be getting up in years by now!

Time knows no truce!!

Thanks for sharing that FN in MT!


Three 44s

[RBak]

Yes indeed, thanks for sharing.
For some reason that picture over Elmer's head stands out in my mind from years ago....must've been on a book or magazine cover, can't place it but it sure stands out.

When discussing Elmer Keith, with his many outstanding accomplishments with the handgun, it seems only right to reflect back on his preference for the big-bore, a debate that started long before Elmer and continues even today.

Rifle or Pistol, seems Elmer was always just a wee bit different than what conventional thinking was saying at the time, and that was the spice that kept his writings right up on top.
May God rest his soul, he brought many enjoyable hours of reading to many of us.

Russ

[Von Dingo]

For some reason or other I was thinking Masai on that spear. I was watching The Ghost and the Darkness today at lunch.

I hope to hunt in the thorns someday with Elmer, T.R., and a few others....

[FN in MT]

Notice the cigar in his hand...and the elephant tail hair bracelet on his wrist. Made from the tail hair on the first jumbo he tipped over. Talk about probably THE ONLY manly bracelet in the world!! LOL.

I visited in 1980 and when I arrived at the house I was maybe 3 minutes ahead of the scheduled time, maybe 7PM. Mrs. Keith answered the door and greeted us...then stated that Elmer was wrapped up watching the end of a TV show that he enjoyed... "The Incredible Hulk". Thought that was funny.

We talked at length about hunting Africa. REALLY got me worked up over hunting there. He mentioned that a plains game hunt was very doable and relatively cheap. Took me almost 20 more years but I did make it over to RSA and in no small part to his stories.

He was NOT a tall guy...but had a deep voice, and a firm handshake.

We visited in October, five months later I was at the big Kalispell Gun Show and there was Elmer with a crowd of people around him. He noticed me...walked through the crown and stuck out a hand. "Forgive me...I forget names...but Your the cop from Helena". And we shook hands. Talk about feeling like a million bucks!! Elmer Keith remembered me!! LOL.

We corresponded back and forth several times about an old Sharps rifle I had and how to paper patch slugs. Some great letters. He typed, yet NEVER used a carriage return...no paragraphs and no SPELL CHECK. Reading a letter was...interesting.

I have some photos of the house, some of his guns, etc. I need to find them, get them scanned and one day post the whole story.

FN in MT

[MtGun44]

Thanks for sharing. I have benefitted much from his work over the years. Saw him once
in the 1980 NRA show in KC, but was too shy to approach him. He had his stroke just a
few years (I forget) later, so I missed my one and only chance.

Bill