I just can't decide!!!!!!

[HEAD0001]

Guys I have been wrestling with this decision for awhile. And I know I have asked this before. And there are alot of threads in the search file concerning my decision. But I just can't decide.

So I am going to ask again.

I want to buy a mold for my 30-06. The rifle is an Encore with a 24" barrel, and a removable muzzle brake. I want to do two things with this bullet. I want to first be able to shoot "gallery loads" off the front porch with my rifle. And the second is I want to shoot the bullet in the 1,800-2,000 fps range for a woods deer hunting load.

I would like a reasonably accurate bulet. But 100 yards will probbly be the longest shots. So reasonable acuracy would be acceptable.

The alloy I would like to use is straight WW. And I think I want a GC designed bullet.

I prefer either an RCBS or a Lyman mold. So what mold do I want to buy?? I just prepped 300 cases to be loaded. They are in the vibrator being cleaned(not all of them) right now. So I am ready to order.

I actually went to Midway and looked at the molds with the intention to order a mold this evening. But I just could not decide. Someone please put me over the edge with a good recommendation. Thank You, Tom.


PS-----Anybody have an active $50 Midway coupon code??

[HangFireW8]

Your expectations are realistic. I would take RCBS over Lyman. Since hunting is a goal you want a flat point.

[VenomBallistics]

I like the Lee 200 grain RN for most of the heavy work though I prefer the 150 grain FP for gallery loads and bunny busting

[Doby45]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103163

I would suggest you contact Swede ASAP he has a 3 cavity, 2 with GCs and 1 with PB and one of the GC cavities has a pin for a hollow point. Excellent mold and worth every penny.

[HEAD0001]

Doby thank you very much. That is about exactly what I want. I do not understand all his nomenclature so I asked him to call me. But thank you very much for the lead. Tom.

[Bret4207]

Just get an RCBS 30-180FN and be done with it. Load it down for plinking, load it up for hunting. End of story.

[frkelly74]

You know, quite a few people have really good experience with the cheap lee molds. The 170 flat nose boolit will do everything you want done. I do not have that one but I do have the 160 and in my Handi 30/30 It has been a lot of fun. It is not flat nose though. Don't get the single cavity, double is much faster.


And they have handles on them already.

[cbrick]

HEAD0001, you have answered your own question.

What you described is the RCBS 180 FPGC. This bullet is surprising accurate in my 308 and I shoot it at just under 2,000 fps, and my 30-30 @ 1900 fps. I also have the sister to this bullet, the 180 SPGC but since you mentioned hunting I would go with the FP. In both of these rifles I use air cooled WW with 2% added tin and shoot them to 200m.

Judging by the last few RCBS molds I've bought RCBS has really stepped up quality in the last few years. All of the 20 some RCBS molds I have are good but the last few were really excellent.

You said you want an RCBS mold, Ok. You want an accurate bullet up to 2,000 fps, done. You want to use it for hunting . . . So what is the question?

Rick

[Jon K]

I'm with Doby45...Get the NOE.
Size is right on, boolits will be concentric(production moulds- out of round)

Jon

[VenomBallistics]

Just get an RCBS 30-180FN and be done with it. Load it down for plinking, load it up for hunting. End of story.

I have to disagree a little ... it'd meet all plinking requirements but one.
that is carry over. Even at a chronoed 1050 FPS a 180 can slice through a 6" diameter aspen and keep on truckin ...
I'd rather lighten things up to 150 or less with an HP preferably in this role so as not to make my fun someone else's misery

[1Shirt]

For whatever it is worth, I would recommend two molds. To do it on the cheap, I would go with Lee, and get a liteweight say 125-130 for plinking, and a 165-180 for hunting. For the latter, would recommend the Ranch Dog, and if you want to stay with just one mold, the RD is the way I would choose.
Good Luck!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[mdi]

I'm surprise no one has mentioned Lyman's 311041, 173 gr. flat point. I don't cast them ,yet, but I purchased some for my single shot 30-30 and I read/heard good stuff about this bullet in other cartridges.

[Bret4207]

I have to disagree a little ... it'd meet all plinking requirements but one.
that is carry over. Even at a chronoed 1050 FPS a 180 can slice through a 6" diameter aspen and keep on truckin ...
I'd rather lighten things up to 150 or less with an HP preferably in this role so as not to make my fun someone else's misery

Uh, well, I suppose if you shoot where you don't consider your backstop that'd be a problem. Of course even a 150HP will sail happily through a 6" Aspen, especially if you miss a little and only have 2" to go through.

If you want to criticize other peoples opinions and imply that they are unsafe shooters you kinda picked the wrong guy to start that with.

[bhn22]

yet another vote for the RCBS 180 FN. If I could have only one...

[HEAD0001]

Thanks guys. You reassured the mold that was tops on my list. Tom.

[VenomBallistics]

Uh, well, I suppose if you shoot where you don't consider your backstop that'd be a problem. Of course even a 150HP will sail happily through a 6" Aspen, especially if you miss a little and only have 2" to go through.

If you want to criticize other peoples opinions and imply that they are unsafe shooters you kinda picked the wrong guy to start that with.
I woldnt imply anyone to be an unsafe shooter ... just unaware that some bullets seem to take on a mind of their own every so often and end up in unbelievable places to do unbelievable things you might learn about days, weeks or months after one got away from you. Its not a bad idea to stack the deck against carry over.

One from personal expieriance ... a charmed 44 cal round nose that came to rest in my friends mustangs gas tank .. said vehicle was on a tangent well behind our firing position. How did it get there? cant say as I have a clue about the path it took .. but I knew her at first sight when we dropped the tank to replace it.
I feel hollow point designs offer something to curb a possessed boolits ambitions through hideous deformity

[Wayne Smith]

Of course, if you really want a plinking boolit the Lee trash can is ideal and cheap. Or, you can buy a 32-20 or two and have a real plinker and then you need to buy molds for it!

[Bret4207]

VB- Do as you will. HP's are no more magical than any other design and a proper backstop involves dirt/sand/large bodies of water.

[Larry Gibson]

+ another for the Lyman 311041 (my favorite .30 cal hunting cast bullet) or the RCBS 30-180-FN (another good hunting cast bullet).

+ another for 2 moulds. Suggest the RCBS 30-150-CM. A 150 gr flat nose non GC mould. Loaded to 1050 fps over Bullseye it makes an excellent plinking, small game load.

Larry Gibson

[VenomBallistics]

VB- Do as you will. HP's are no more magical than any other design and a proper backstop involves dirt/sand/large bodies of water.

that represents the environment in which the 44 RN strayed. In fact the area was a man made irrigation pond with two 25 foot banks of dirt to either side ... we'd set targets at the base of one and fire from the top of the other which adds downward deflection. To see it, you wouldn't think its possible for a slug to escape.
Ill say it works most of the time ... but dont count on it working all the time.
I went to HP's for plinking loads since they provide some advantages over solids.
HP's are more likely to fragment which leaves smaller sub projectiles to do harm when they escape. Fragments bleed energy faster than whole bullets.
HP's also make your Plinking ammo into more desirable varmint and small game ammo. Since it is the highest volume of ammo handloaded, its the most likely to be used in such situations ... worth wrapping a few brain cells around.

Now its obvious that we approach the same objective from different paths here.
so far Ive made points and cited examples. The Debate scoreboard has a larger tally in my column. Make a few points to ponder, and I will

[Bret4207]

Okay, so you start off talking about shooting through trees and now you have a downward angle into dirt banks and a pond. Why do I think you want to prove that there's a chance, a slim, magical chance that no matter what backstop I come up with you'll have this freak instance where somehow, some way you once had a boolit wind up in the Queen Mothers soup bowl, but now, since you've gone to HP's the Queen Mum, (may she rest in peace), hasn't had any lead in her soup or your friends cars have holes in their gas tanks?

I was once shooting HP'ed 311316's for a 32-20 Colt Army Special. As it happens, I WAS shooting at trees, Beech trees to be precise since they have nifty little pre-made targets on their bark. One of the rounds bounced back and struck the guard rail behind me. I've had multiple instances of 22 HP's ricocheting off various surfaces. What did I learn? Most anything can happen, even to an experienced shooter and the best backstop involves dirt or sand in my range.

My impression is that the OP isn't a real experienced caster. He's looking for a production mould from Midway. HP's are not the easiest thing in the world to produce and in high volumes, like you'd use in plinking of varmint shooting, they are a pain to produce. To my way of thinking to meet the OP request a simple flat nose at low velocity SHOT INTO A SAFE BACKSTOP would answer, weird happenstances and bizarre events excepted. There is no way to guard against everything, HP or not. I suppose if he wanted to negate any possible unintended ricochet he could just shoot BB's into a cardboard box filled with rags, or take up knitting.

BTW, the "tally"? You're keeping "score??? Just how old are you and how juvenile do we want to get?

[VenomBallistics]

because the gas tank hit was the last and most frustrating of an alarming handfull of "possessed" bullets out of a quantity of just 200 total rounds. no matter how hard I tried, I could not keep them contained. before that Ive had two playing ping pong all around me. and still more turning up in low value targets I didnt intend to put them into.
I left the rest of em to rot and took to careful evaluation of bullet design thereafter.
I shot everything I could think of with everything I could think of to find a way of minimizing the occurrence of possessed projectiles. The best in show isnt legal anymore, the next best is an HP followed by wad cutters in my findings

[nanuk]

To my way of thinking to meet the OP request a simple flat nose at low velocity SHOT INTO A SAFE BACKSTOP would answer, weird happenstances and bizarre events excepted. There is no way to guard against everything, HP or not. I suppose if he wanted to negate any possible unintended ricochet he could just shoot BB's into a cardboard box filled with rags, or take up knitting.


Knitting, or any other hobby that does not require an object being launched at any speed where one has no longer 100% control over said object

Stuff happens. Your BB could miss the box. There could be an old nail in side the tree that can cause a ricochet (sp?)

Be as safe as you can, take all reasonable precautions, and if you can afford it for your own range, even some unreasonable precautions.

Like Bret says, a safe backstop! What does my local range have??? berms of jackpine sand. BUT they are not big enough, so there is fenced range well beyond the berms.

[btroj]

Possessed bullets? Really? And to think that all this time I had been taught that it was MY responsibility as the shooter for where the bullets ended up! By saying the bullets are "possessed" it seems you are no longer taking any responsibility for where they end ip. That bugs me quite a bit.
And multiple escaped rounds out of 200?

Please let me know where you shoot, I plan to stay well away from there.

[Bret4207]

And I've shot thousands of RN that never went anywhere other than the backstop. It's the backstop, not the boolit.

[Jim]

Venom Ballistics, I have a question. I dropped by your WEB SITE (http://www.venomballistics.com/?page_id=3) and noticed you refer to one of the bullets you sell as a "deep exponential" hollow point.
I must confess I'm not a ballistician, so I don't understand this. Could you explain it for me?

Thanks!
Jim

[VenomBallistics]

deep straight exponential .... Its a concept borrowed from acoustic horns which in an HP design lends to a rather wide range of velocity at which it'll expand.
Tooling gets harder to produce as the caliber decreases where this pin is concerned. but it remains one of my favorites, and I at least TRY to make one with each mold I bore.

[btroj]

So it is a hollowpoint that doesn't have parallel sides to the cavity. Sort of like most other hollow points on the market today.

[VenomBallistics]

its more like a set of tuned pipe headers over stock manifolds.
While some pins I'll produce with "TLAR" technology (that looks about right) this one is meticulously computed and met with equal regard at the lathe when its born.

[Jim]

VB, I looked up "exponential" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exponential) and still don't understand. I guess I haven't been doing this as long as you have. Can you simplify this for the old man?

Thanks!

[btroj]

Jim, all I can assume is that it means the hollow point cavity is a rounded shape and the curve is an "exponential function". Sounds ALOT like marketing hype to me.

I did find the photos on the website interesting. Looks like milk jugs of water being shot with a bullet. Not sure how they demonstrate much other than the fact milk jugs of water react when shot.

[VenomBallistics]

Jim, all I can assume is that it means the hollow point cavity is a rounded shape and the curve is an "exponential function". Sounds ALOT like marketing hype to me.

I did find the photos on the website interesting. Looks like milk jugs of water being shot with a bullet. Not sure how they demonstrate much other than the fact milk jugs of water react when shot.


let me address this with a little history.
The rifled barrel started with cutting straight grooves in a barrel to leave room for fowling .... I'm quite sure it was met with suspicion and called a gimmick. It then evolved into spiral grooves as they discovered the less perfect straight grooves yielded better accuracy. Now we have a bigger gimmick. Today we know why it works because gyroscopic stability floated to the top in the research of the phenomena.

Every advance suffered this criticism and its not isolated to firearms.

I really dont think of my cavity design as an advancement ... its principals go way back through the history of musical instruments as our very first amplifier found in any orchestra horn section as well as our first sound reproduction gimmicks (phonograph) and hearing aids (ear trumpet)
I just put it in the nose of a bullet as its principles of operation are well understood and I simply wished to see what it might do.
I cant say for certain that the full rule set applies, theres no way to measure flow and pressure in an expanding bullet cavity. What I can tell you is that it is a very positive expander. The pictures you refer to are of one such boolit at a range of 70 yards 44 cal, 223 grain and an instrument MV of 1100 FPS, and a calculated remaining velocity of 1000. Its a rather wicked result for those velocities.
exactly why it works ... it may be rooted in the principals of the straight exponential horns natural tendencies. Even if these principals are lost to scale reduction. most of my personal loads use it despite being able to make anything I want.

[VenomBallistics]

Possessed bullets? Really? And to think that all this time I had been taught that it was MY responsibility as the shooter for where the bullets ended up! By saying the bullets are "possessed" it seems you are no longer taking any responsibility for where they end ip. That bugs me quite a bit.
And multiple escaped rounds out of 200?

Please let me know where you shoot, I plan to stay well away from there.

if you were around to witness the events, I assure you that you'd have filed every last one of them under the heading of "Fluke"
when I first got my S&W 629 I had only two choices of ammo .. craptastic swagged lead 240 grain flatpoint magnums that would begin leading the bore as soon as you paid for them and 246 grain lead RN 44 specials that should have had a pentagram printed on each box. its this choice of poison that got me reloading, casting and ultimately making molds ... I wouldn't trust those round nose chunks of canned mayhem down a 10 mile length of 3" diameter schedule 80 pipe with the last mile packed with kevlar. Even providing way over the top attempts at containment were fruitless.
The gas tank incident was the last straw ... we figured the stang took one for the team when we smelled the gas yet we didnt discount the more probable cause of terrain induced puncture.
"yup theres another one for the collection" was said somewhere in between the laughing fits as we changed out the tank.
I guess the engines of karma just wanted me to invest myself in the science by frustrating me into it.
I try to solve it at the bullet, because it is my responsibility where they end up even though they passed through a Rube Goldberg machine to get there.

[geargnasher]

Alloy and state of alloy temper/anneal has more to to with proper expansion than anything.

I'm sure that buzzwords like "tangent" or "secant" radius ogive were scoffed by many in the quest for better BC numbers, and they may or may not be an improvement in external ballistic performance depending on how they're used.

Using some sort of trig function or even a simple log or exponent function to create a cross-sectional curve to an HP cavity is a fine idea in theory, but it's the practice that counts. Only a detailed study involving fluid dynamics would tell without shooting them.

In the end, there is no perfect design, only individual applications that work well.

Gear

[VenomBallistics]

at the time and in the area .. no .. that was it.
say what you will but consider this.
no matter what Rube Goldberg machine put that 246 into that stangs gas tank ... an 8 year old on a bicycle is a larger target.
at the end of the investigation, its your bullet, from your gun in that kid. You might be able to prove the first deflection ... perhaps the second ... your credibility is as shot as the kid after that.
Unlike the gas tank in that beautiful car ... I dont think the one in the hypothetical kid will grow more humorous with age between those involved.
Yes Virginia, I do think about alternate endings to such things even though it seems no one else cares to.
If I continued to use them, would it have ended badly? .. I don't have that answer because I stopped the madness.
To this day I can produce a 44 spec RN and tell that friend of mine "Dont make me fire this" and fill the room with laughter. I choose to keep that gag effective by not giving it the chance to top itself.
Go ahead and ignore what I say sir ... your Jury of twelve will call bull just like you are if it happens to you.

[felix]

Gear, this explains it fully: "Rube Goldberg's cartoons became well known for depicting complex devices that performed simple tasks in indirect, convoluted ways". ... felix

[geargnasher]

Yes indeed.

One event that left a strong impression on me was a conversation I had with a customer who was a retired psychologist. He went through O'l Miss program with nine classmates, all of whom, except for him, made their pretty sizeable fortunes in the ADVERTISING field of all things. Dr. Hardee made a decent living and retirement, but never did make the money his classmates did by finding and exploiting subtle tactics to sell products. He said he wanted to help people, and that's what he did. I think there's a message in that, somewhere.

Gear

[Jim]

VB, I'm just curious here. Why is there no mailing addy or phone number on your site? I'm a bit leary about giving a credit card number to an email addy and not knowing who it is or where they are or how I can reach them.

[btroj]

I hear lots of convoluted thinking and neat buzz words. What I don't see is any sign of a methodical, well thought out, scientific approach.
As for bullet escapement it is more likely operator error than the bullet shape if it happens multiple times in 200 rounds. One bullet that escapes the berm is a lesson, two or more is negligence if they happen in the same time frame. I, and I alone, am responsible for where my rounds hit. If you choose to continue to blame the bullet design feel free but don't expect me to agree.
By calling bullets possessed and then a Rube Goldberg machine you seem to be taking no part in the blame for bullet escapement. At the ranges I belong to that gets you booted. Every time, forever. We take safety very seriously and don't blame the projectile for where it goes.
I wonder how we ever got to this point in shooting with the huge number of round nose bullets that were fired? How did the 1911 ever survive when it puts 230 ball ammo anywhere but where you want it?
I am so glad that someone has finally enlightened us with proper bullet design. I wish you well but it will be without my money. I will continue to shoot my subpar, poorly designed bullets that seem to stick in any berm I shoot them into.

[VenomBallistics]

VB, I'm just curious here. Why is there no mailing addy or phone number on your site? I'm a bit leary about giving a credit card number to an email addy and not knowing who it is or where they are or how I can reach them.

CC numbers are handled via pay pal. I never see them, only that payment has been made.
Ive learned the hard way that leaving a number and snail mail contacts on the web invites telemarketers and junk mail by the pound ... this may be less so with snail mail but still as dead on with PN's as it was when I adopted the policy.
I havnt updated the site in a while as I intend to transition into the sale of molds rather than boolits, which I feel to be a better value to the customer as a whole.
Feel free to Email at any time.

[cbrick]

Go ahead and ignore what I say sir ... your Jury of twelve will call bull just like you are if it happens to you.

Hhmmm . . . Dunno about where you live but here if you shoot an innocent bystander (much less a kid) you will be in front of a jury and I assure you they will not be considering what the point of your bullet looked like before you fired it or where you got it. You could be shooting cotton balls but if one of them shoots and kills or even injurs a kid your in deep doodoo.

Rick

[VenomBallistics]

I hear lots of convoluted thinking and neat buzz words. What I don't see is any sign of a methodical, well thought out, scientific approach.
As for bullet escapement it is more likely operator error than the bullet shape if it happens multiple times in 200 rounds. One bullet that escapes the berm is a lesson, two or more is negligence if they happen in the same time frame. I, and I alone, am responsible for where my rounds hit. If you choose to continue to blame the bullet design feel free but don't expect me to agree.
By calling bullets possessed and then a Rube Goldberg machine you seem to be taking no part in the blame for bullet escapement. At the ranges I belong to that gets you booted. Every time, forever. We take safety very seriously and don't blame the projectile for where it goes.
I wonder how we ever got to this point in shooting with the huge number of round nose bullets that were fired? How did the 1911 ever survive when it puts 230 ball ammo anywhere but where you want it?
I am so glad that someone has finally enlightened us with proper bullet design. I wish you well but it will be without my money. I will continue to shoot my subpar, poorly designed bullets that seem to stick in any berm I shoot them into.

Of course it does not show signs of methodical approach .. that would take more pages than war and peace.
and dont call me irresponsible sir. when I encountered a problem I took far greater steps to solve it than any man here.
You say the 1911 does not exhibit this tendency with ball ammo.
I have the personal account of a few Marines on leave screwing around with tracers when they were still legal where these individuals stated "you'd be amazed at what those things do" not that I was particularly pleased to hear of the tracer part in my area.
my case and their case really only differ in that mine started ending up in things I could not ignore or made their presence known by thumping between various objects in random fashion.
I hope to be on your jury sir ... you have my word that it'll be a hung jury for my experience ...

[VenomBallistics]

Hhmmm . . . Dunno about where you live but here if you shoot an innocent bystander (much less a kid) you will be in front of a jury and I assure you they will not be considering what the point of your bullet looked like before you fired it or where you got it. You could be shooting cotton balls but if one of them shoots and kills or even injurs a kid your in deep doodoo.

Rick

please thoroughly read the post you quote as that is the point I was making

[Longwood]

A few years back I was riding my mountain bike down the hill leading to the town where I live. As I was riding along, I saw something land right in front of me so I stopped and picked it up. It was a round nosed cast 45 cal bullet from the gun range that I was about to pass. I was in no hurry so I thought I would stop in and see what was going on. Turns out, some club was having one of those steel plate Speed shooting event's and one of the targets was positioned so the bullets that missed were ricocheting off of the soft sand hill it was mounted on, right out onto the nearby four lane highway.
I looked up the guy that appeared to be in charge of the event, and mentioned it to him. He said he doubted that, so I showed him the bullet that had nearly hit me.
He gave me a dirty look like I was some of Tree Hugger or something (the long hair may not have helped) and kept right on with the event.
I called the Sheriff dept and the events are no longer held at that range. It was pretty obvious some of the shooters were cops including the ******* that gave me the dirty look.
By the way, the club was from another county.



How did the 1911 ever survive when it puts 230 ball ammo anywhere but where you want it?


That is a question I have been asking myself since I was dumb enough to buy one (cheap) from a friend.
As soon as I found that it would not shoot where I wanted it too, I took it to the local 45 1911 guru that is pretty well known for accurizing the 45 colts. It still would not shoot very well so I spent the money for a Barsto barrel but finally sold it at a gun show.
Another friend gave me one and I also put a Barsto barrel on it and had a action job done on it. Sold it within a year.
Years later, I got a great deal on an officers model 1911 in 38 super and it shot pretty well so I spent the money on another Barsto barrel and did my own action job on it. That got it to shooting much more accurately than the 45's I had spent so much money trying to get to shoot and would then shoot as well as my 9mm Sig that shot very small groups right out of the box.

[VenomBallistics]

A few years back I was riding my mountain bike down the hill leading to the town where I live. As I was riding along, I saw something land right in front of me so I stopped and picked it up. It was a round nosed cast 45 cal bullet from the gun range that I was about to pass. I was in no hurry so I thought I would stop in and see what was going on.


Glad you avoided being a Mustang gas tank. While I suspect if it had connected it was likely so close to the end of its journey that it'd likely just left a bruise .. but it got the point across to you im sure.

Its sometimes hard not to appear as an alarmist bunny hugger when you point out a "Hole in security" ... had it been the discovery of a militant bunny hugger, we'd have lost a range entierly. Seems we can only tell them and hope they do their part so we can all have a win.

[Jim]

.....Ive learned the hard way that leaving a number and snail mail contacts on the web invites telemarketers and junk mail by the pound ... this may be less so with snail mail but still as dead on with PN's as it was when I adopted the policy.....

You got me scratchin' my head on that one. I have a site for my gun school and I have my mailing addy, my email addy and the business phone number displayed on the "Contact" page. I NEVER get any junk postal mail, MAYBE one or two junk emails a week and NO telemarketers or prank calls to the business phone. I guess nobody wants to talk to a dumb ol' retired hillbilly pipefitter.

[VenomBallistics]

You got me scratchin' my head on that one. I have a site for my gun school and I have my mailing addy, my email addy and the business phone number displayed on the "Contact" page. I NEVER get any junk postal mail, MAYBE one or two junk emails a week and NO telemarketers or prank calls to the business phone. I guess nobody wants to talk to a dumb ol' retired hillbilly pipefitter.

I suspect my provider left my tail in the wind ... Email gets pretty spammed up but thats what the filters are for. I periodically cruise through the spam folders just in case it was overzealous.
I still average 2 telemarketers per day .. could be worse, cause it was ... its down from 5.

[Longwood]

Glad you avoided being a Mustang gas tank. While I suspect if it had connected it was likely so close to the end of its journey that it'd likely just left a bruise .. but it got the point across to you im sure.


Yep!
I was much more worried about the windshield on my truck on my next 70 mph trip through the area.

[RP]

I read the post here and they are jumping around a little but on the backstops and bullets I will make a post. I shoot in my back yard after the woods were cleared which were very thick pines the kind only rabbits and deer like I decided it was time for a backstop. I know a fellow member here that works at a airport and he told me they had alot of jet tires. Now these tires are small like 8 in rims very thick some even have kevlar in them. So after stacking the tires and filling them with sand I thought i had it licked. For the rifles for the most part were fine but pistols not so much. I started finding boolits out in front of my backstop up to 20 feet away. They were hitting the tires and coming back to me. So I added some plastic skids which are two layers thick and a pellet gun will punch a hole in the first layer to give a ideal. And they are about two inches thick. This seemed to work fine so I tore down the first backstop that was tires behind tires to hold sand in place. I placed the tires in a row with the skids screwed on the front and back. This holds the tires in place and sand between the the tires making me a solid wall about two feet thick. I will be adding more skids to the front as the others fill up with holes giving me more and more of a buffer to keep bullets in place. I use this berm for testing new rounds and plinking but always making sure my rounds hit the stop. Maybe for others looking for away to make a berm without buying truck loads of dirt this may help them out noting tires alone will not work.

[Bret4207]

So let me get this straight, you tell btroj not to call you irresponsible and yet you accuse any of us not buying into your schtick (and your product) of being irresponsible. You start off talking about shooting through trees but now it's ricochets off dirt embankments via "possessed" boolits and "Rube Goldberg" mechanics. And then those that try and and tell you it's the backstop are treated to fear mongering about killing some poor 8 year old kid. Of course if any of us would just buy Venom Ballistic brand bullets with their "exponential" hollow points none of this will ever happen. But just on the off chance that a Venom Ballistic bullet with it's exponential hollow point, complete with multiple paragraphs describing how incredibly deadly they are in the sales material, hits that 8 year old on the bike through Satanic possession and Rube Goldberg mechanics, you won't provide a phone number or physical address so that the plaintiffs lawyers can pursue you in the wrongful death law suit along with your customers because you get spam, telemarketers and some junk mail, which apparently no one else in the USA ever has to endure. Multiple other posters here have related their years of safe shooting by using adequate backstops but according to you, there is no adequate backstop without the use of Venom Ballistic bullets. Only with Venom Ballistic bullets can we possibly be safe, responsible shooters, otherwise there are going to be leaking "Stangs" and dead 8 year olds littering the landscape while Marines shoot tracers helter skelter which won't make you happy because they're illegal (???). Speaking of legal, the better choice is no longer legal (whatever that means), but thankfully Venom Ballistic Bullets with Wicked Straight Exponential Hollow Points are available from a website with no phone number or physical address listed. But since RN boolits "play ping pong all around" us, it's simply madness (which you put a stop to) to use anything but Venom Ballistic brand bullets, not that the OP was looking to buy boolits, but rather a mould to cast his own. Thankfully Venom Ballistics will soon be offering moulds.

I don't know how your "tally" stands, but I can clearly see a pattern here.

[warf73]

Well Bret atleast the Venom Ballistics sell bullet and not Venom Ballistics Pills.



Had to toss that in there since I know what you think about them pills.

[btroj]

Very well stated Bret.

I have decided that VenomBallisrics uses "exponential" hollow points so he can pack more hooey into each one.
I have not seen this level of self serving b s in quite some time.
I wish you and your business well but it most certainly will not be on my dime. I will keep shooting my lousy bullets into my berm. And I will keep digging same out of said berm. Right where they impacted.

[VenomBallistics]

Very well stated Bret.

I have decided that VenomBallisrics uses "exponential" hollow points so he can pack more hooey into each one.
I have not seen this level of self serving b s in quite some time.
I wish you and your business well but it most certainly will not be on my dime. I will keep shooting my lousy bullets into my berm. And I will keep digging same out of said berm. Right where they impacted.

good ... keep an accurate count of fired versus retrieved.
depending on the profiles used .. with RN being at the very least one of the worst offenders, you too, might make a similar discovery in the numbers.
If you do .. lets share notes and see if we cant get more lead back ... the stuff is getting to be the new gold lately

[waksupi]

I am amused when someone shows up with their new universal problem solving products. This isn't a real good board to try to BS people, as most here are older very experienced shooters, and past the slick magazine hype mentality.

[Doby45]

Yhea, now sell me some lube grooves. I am gettin low. ;)

[VenomBallistics]

So let me get this straight, you tell btroj not to call you irresponsible and yet you accuse any of us not buying into your schtick (and your product) of being irresponsible. You start off talking about shooting through trees but now it's ricochets off dirt embankments via "possessed" boolits and "Rube Goldberg" mechanics. And then those that try and and tell you it's the backstop are treated to fear mongering about killing some poor 8 year old kid. Of course if any of us would just buy Venom Ballistic brand bullets with their "exponential" hollow points none of this will ever happen.
why thank you for the refresher course in taking things out of context and literary contortion. you truly are an Olympic class contender ... if it were to become an event ... oh wait ... that's the whole of the political arena so should I say Senator Bret?
At no time did I plug my products as a direct solution to the deflection issues posed by RN designs. Elmer Kieth might agree with what Ive been saying since "the Keith type" is not of this profile. surely hes dealt with RN's in his experiences just as I have seeing as the 44 specials standard loading is a 246 grain RN.
funny how his design bares so little resemblance to the RN profile since there's no problem with them Mr Senator.
In the course of this debate, empirical evidence began to surface supporting my argument against the RN profile.

A few years back I was riding my mountain bike down the hill leading to the town where I live. As I was riding along, I saw something land right in front of me so I stopped and picked it up. It was a round nosed cast 45 cal bullet from the gun range that I was about to pass. I was in no hurry so I thought I would stop in and see what was going on. Turns out, some club was having one of those steel plate Speed shooting event's and one of the targets was positioned so the bullets that missed were ricocheting off of the soft sand hill it was mounted on, right out onto the nearby four lane highway.
I thank Longwood for coming forward with this account.
so what profile was that? and even a proper commercial range couldn't contain it?!?!? The man almost took one for the team here lets not waste his experience.
its all about probability. if you can contain a higher percentage of rounds fired there is a lowered risk to by standers. If a change of profile can help we get to keep more ranges in the long run and as an added benefit on our private ranges, we get to retrieve more lead.


But just on the off chance that a Venom Ballistic bullet with it's exponential hollow point, complete with multiple paragraphs describing how incredibly deadly they are in the sales material, hits that 8 year old on the bike through Satanic possession and Rube Goldberg mechanics, you won't provide a phone number or physical address so that the plaintiffs lawyers can pursue you in the wrongful death law suit along with your customers because you get spam, telemarketers and some junk mail, which apparently no one else in the USA ever has to endure. Multiple other posters here have related their years of safe shooting by using adequate backstops but according to you, there is no adequate backstop without the use of Venom Ballistic bullets. Only with Venom Ballistic bullets can we possibly be safe, responsible shooters, otherwise there are going to be leaking "Stangs" and dead 8 year olds littering the landscape while Marines shoot tracers helter skelter which won't make you happy because they're illegal (???). Speaking of legal, the better choice is no longer legal (whatever that means), but thankfully Venom Ballistic Bullets with Wicked Straight Exponential Hollow Points are available from a website with no phone number or physical address listed. But since RN boolits "play ping pong all around" us, it's simply madness (which you put a stop to) to use anything but Venom Ballistic brand bullets, not that the OP was looking to buy boolits, but rather a mould to cast his own. Thankfully Venom Ballistics will soon be offering moulds.

I don't know how your "tally" stands, but I can clearly see a pattern here.[/QUOTE]

Your could make it as a science fiction writer too.
what we really need of people with your multifaceted talents, is the reestablishment of manufacturing here on American soil. Im rather sick of seeing made in China ....
Again, AT NO TIME did I say EVER say that my boolits are the last word and final solution to deflection issues
what I HAVE been saying however is that RN designs (and not their flat point counterparts) have displayed an alarming tendency to deflect AND that the designs should be selected AND tested carefully to guard against it.



If you want to criticize other peoples opinions and imply that they are unsafe shooters you kinda picked the wrong guy to start that with.
remember this statement sir?
"Black cars are prettier than red cars"
that is an opinion
"Round nose designs demonstrate a significantly higher occurrence of deflection issues"
This is NOT an opinion. It is at the very least a theory, and at the very most a provable fact.
Most of your argument points have been contortions of statements ever since you threw down the gauntlet oh so many blood soaked miles of internet ago.
I admire your tenacity Sir. Such traits, properly employed, are exactly what this nation needs to pull out of this nose dive we are in.
As for the things I have shot in the past such as the Aspen you've been obsessing about. its called real world research and testing.
Why would I bother to try it? ... cause someone else was about to bank upon using a pile of said species of logs as a back stop ... im sure you can agree its not a good idea. I had to see if I could easily PROVE it to be an ill thought investment in effort on his behalf.
so I guess that one is my fault for quoting myself out of context.

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like you have everything pretty well thought out and your decisions are sound ones. I do not care for Lee molds as the quality and longevity is just not there. Lyman molds are spotty in their quality. RCBS still makes good quality molds and would be a top choice. A good 170 to 190 grain FN would be an excellent choice.

[VenomBallistics]

Sounds like you have everything pretty well thought out and your decisions are sound ones. I do not care for Lee molds as the quality and longevity is just not there. Lyman molds are spotty in their quality. RCBS still makes good quality molds and would be a top choice. A good 170 to 190 grain FN would be an excellent choice.

Sir .. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you.
First, for bringing this thread back to its natural born subject matter
Second for your tag line

[Doby45]

I think Chargar was speaking to HEAD0001.

:coffee:


Sir .. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you.
First, for bringing this thread back to its natural born subject matter
Second for your tag line

[Trey45]

Doby haven't you noticed our new expert on everything has decided to reply to EVERY post in this thread? It didn't take long for him to make a name, and a reputation for himself.

[Doby45]

Yhea, I noticed. Sad really. ;)

[VenomBallistics]

Yhea, I noticed. Sad really. ;)

I agree ...
"Instead, take time to think rationally then state your case as fluently as possible. That will go a lot further in proving your point than name calling and emotional tirades. Abrasive, aggressive and caustic posts will be removed."

to whom does this apply?

[Duckiller]

VB shoots boolits that go in circles into gas tanks. Also he seems to have rifles with unique rifling i.e. Spiral cut. Most rifling are cut in a circular pattern i.e. 1-8.1-10 etc. Not sure where he shoots but I don't want to be anywhere near him. One bad boolit is an interesting phenomena, more says there is something wrong with the range. As Longbow pointed out modify a range for a contest and don't completely check it out and you can have problems. Exponential Hollow points sound interesting, but is the machining of the pin worth the effort over a slightly tapered pin. At the scale we are dealing with there is very little difference in dimensions. Wish VB good luck on selling mold but don't try to sell BS.

[Galloping Gooser]

hello, lurker here. I'm thinking this is a very hostile forum. Am i the only one here that understands what venom ballistic is saying? I may not be the super reloader that many here are, but one thing i do get is a round bullet has a greater chance to roll then a hollow point.

[btroj]

It is not a hostile forum. I have found most here to be very generous with time and materials. Most will talk til blue in the face to answer a question.
What many here do not like is rampant b s.
If you want to say that it is your opinion that a RN is more likely to ricochet than a flat nose or a hollow point I can maybe buy that. But saying that RN bullets are possessed? Multiple escaped rounds, or ping pong balls, pit of 200 rounds sounds like negligence to me. I would think that 1 rounds hitting something and going outside the berm to my side, or behind me, would make me stop and think things thru. A round that ricochets with enough energy to puncture a car gas tanks, and I imagine the body of the car, would make me re-evaluate my range setup
Again, I have stated that it is ALWAYS the shooters responsibility for where the bullet lands. No wiggle room on this.
This board is very tolerant of most things. I am tolerant of most things but do not tolerate a person who wants me to buy into b s. Period.

[Trey45]

hello, lurker here. I'm thinking this is a very hostile forum. Am i the only one here that understands what venom ballistic is saying? I may not be the super reloader that many here are, but one thing i do get is a round bullet has a greater chance to roll then a hollow point.



You claim to be a lurker, and then claim we're a very hostile forum, if you were in fact a lurker you'd know this forum is the exact opposite. I find it no coincidence that you chose to make this your first post. Your first post attacks the forum under the guise of defending VB. You are of course entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, you think we're a hostile forum, I think you're a shill.

[btroj]

Plus 1 Trey

[Bret4207]

So then VB, if it's all about RN's and their penchant for possession and their thirst for blood, then what was your beef in the first place with the boolit I recommended as a workable solution for the OP's query? The RCBS 30-180 FN is a FLAT NOSE! You've talked your way in circles and played the poor indignant victim here for 4 pages. We're still right back at square one- a proper backstop negates the issue of Satanic boolits playing ping pong among the Aspens and Mustangs. You've tried to turn this into a sales pitch for your product or to justify your opinion somehow. All you've done is waste bandwidth insulting people intelligence and exercising their BS meter.

I hope you're successful in your business, but coming here and trying to convince people that safe backstops are simply unsafe isn't working.

[Lively Boy]

After reading thru this, i'm wondering...will adding holy water to my boolit lube take care of the "possessed boolit syndrome"???

On a more serious note, a safe backstop is the only way to go, along with checking out your area beforehand to make sure any potential ricochets will not cause damage...

[Doby45]

Holy water has no effect. :(

I think it is strange too that we have a "lurker" that literally signed up either yesterday or today. You need to be here more than 2 days to be classified as a "lurker".

[btroj]

I will always take a good back stop over a "special" bullet. Bullets need to hit an earthen backstop as squarely as possible. I don't see how a bullet fired squarely into earth can bounce out of it? At a shallow angle, yes. But square to the dirt? With no rocks? Not buying it.

[Galloping Gooser]

I'll tell what I see. I see a bunch of mods on the attack. I think you need to police your words. as mods don't you think you should be a little less biased? but wait I am soooo new here my opinion is not worth it.

[45nut]

wow this is so far off topic I cannot think of a similar thread in 3 years as bad as this.

this thread is closed and I implore everyone to take a few breaths and relax. this is way too hot for the question asked in post number one.