What 9mm bullets to use?

[glw]

I am trying to figure out what 9mm bullet to use in a Kel-Tec PF-9 for self-defense against 2-legged critters. The barrel is 3.10 inches long, so velocities will be a little low. I load my own ammo, and plan to load my self-defense ammo. (Please, Please do not comment on this. This is a settled decision for me.)

I am gathering materials to start casting, but have not yet cast a single boolit. That should change this summer. (My stepdad currently casts for me.)

Here are some options I am considering. I want to keep the weight somewhere around 124 grains:

- I have about 1200 18bhn .356 124 grain RN boolits from Missouri Bullet Co. I could use a drill to hollow point them, but I don't know how well it would work.

- I could use a large meplat TC boolit like the Lee 120 grn bullet.

- I could try some sort of hollow point boolit, but I don't really want to spend a bunch of money on a mold like that right now. I would probably work on drilling a cast boolit rather

- I could use jacketed bullets of some sort

- I could size down a Lee 158 RNFP boolit, though I probably would have to modify them to reduce the weight, either by trimming the boolit or drilling a hollowpoint.

- something else?

What recommendations do you have? I'm open to all suggestions (except buying loaded ammo). I don't mind doing some manual work on the boolits as I won't need to make too many of them at a time.

Thanks for the help!

Glenn

[bhn22]

Hollowpointing commercial cast bullets would likely be futile, especially at lower velocities. The bullets are usually just too hard for hollowpointing to be effective. I'd use the truncated cone approach if this is what you have to work with. Don't take it wrong, but I feel the 9mm is marginal anyway, and this approach could hamstring it even further. Still, if this is what you have to work with, then you really have no option but to move forward. I use factory ammo, designed to be effective in short barrels, for my own compact 9mm, and I even have apprehensions about using that.

[glw]

Hi bhn,

I thought that the commercial boolits would be too hard, but I don't have a place to test them. I don't really want to use factory loads as they too expensive to run a few hundred through a gun to test them. It would cost more to do that than I paid for the gun! I also prefer to load them myself, as I then know that there is a flash hole, powder, etc.

I didn't know if a good truncated cone boolit would do a good job, or if I really needed to go with a hollowpoint. So many options, and so few opportunities to test!

If nothing else, I may get a box of Sierra jacketed bullets. Corbon uses those, and I can buy them locally for a reasonable price.

Thanks!
Glenn

[MtGun44]

Speer Gold Dot 124 for serious social purposes.

Bill

[GabbyM]

You mentioned Sierra HP’s.
Sierra HP’s are good small game bullets. I used to shoot the 9mm 90gr Sierra HP. Still have a couple boxes here. They will flatten like a silver dollar on impact when launched at 1,400 fps. Never tried the 124 grain HP’s but I’d assume they would over expand. The 90gr Sierra HP’s make good walk about bullets to carry in the woods as they generally don’t ricochet. They hit dirt and stop within a couple inches. Deadly on Raccoons and such but you only about three inches of penetration.

Lots of good 9mm bullets out there. The round nose is just fine. The Air force bullet from back in the early days of the M9 tested to blow twice the diameter hole in ballistic clay as a 45 with RN ball. Plus it penetrates deeper. That bullet was eventually the Hornady 124-fmj-fp. It has a larger meplat than the Lee 122 TC or the Saeco #377 which are about identical. I shot that Hornady 124-fmj-fp for years but now cast mine.

I have the old Air force bullet in a ten cavity H&G mould. But of late I’ve been trying out a 125gr TC revolver bullet from a Magma mould. Only because it drops from my machine. Plus it has quite a bit larger meplat than my Saeco #377 TC bullet. Lee makes a 125gr rnfp revolver bullet that's a good 9mm bullet. Especially if you need a larger diameter.

Personally I have little regard for hollow points in 9mm for SD. Absolutely zero for anything you could call combat. I want penetration that is deep and straight. Which is why I’ve never carried a 45 acp. 9mm is superior to a 45 acp. Except for shooting snakes.

The Army still carries a round nosed NATO round because the flat point bullet the USAF designed will not meet NATO penetration test. One being a set of three blocks of pine boards set with two air spaces and adding up to sixteen inches of pine. The air space is to give the bullet a chance to tumble and fail in the next block. However a flat nosed 9mm 124gr will out penetrate a round nosed 230gr 45acp. Rule #1 is get the bullet through the target. I’m not saying 45’s don’t work. That would be silly. Just that they aren’t the holly grain of handgun bullets there fans like to espouse. What a 45 has going for it is any bullet you load will make a big hole. Hard to mess it up.

Illinois State Police made the rep for 9x19mm in USA law enforcement. Starting back in the fifties. Then when the 9mm went main stream the ammo was totally fouled up leaving dissatisfied customers. The mistake was hollow point ammo that is still all the rage. As it somehow appeals to the dark side of the human mind. The ISP used a proprietary load made by Federal. Was a 100 grain truncated cone flat point at high velocity. They made it with a soft exposed lead tip as the jack booted types insisted on an expanding bullet and the lawyer types fretted over the “over penetration“. Federal, and perhaps some ISP troopers, in there wisdom made up some test rounds with soft cores to show off. Then made the issue ammo with alloy lead that held together even through cars with zero expansion. After all an ability to shoot through cars is why the 357 mag was designed. Of course the exposed lead caused the S&W first model 39’s which had no integral feed ramp to jam about one in five shots. ISP turned in an amazing one shot kill ratio that may never be surpassed. Possibly helped along by the fact the troopers had confidence in there pistol jamming 20% of the time leaving them with a single shot. So they actually made it count. I had a 39-2 with the feed ramp that I can’t recall ever jamming with ammo strong enough to work the slide.

If you want less penetration with a big wound cavity run a 100 grain TC solid cast at 1,400 fps. You would need an expensive alloy to run that velocity and not fragment on impact. Simpler and better to run the 122 and 124 grain flat nose bullets. Cast of course. I’ve been playing with 147’s but that’s another page full.

I don’t know if the meplat on the Lee or Saeco #377 truncated cone is large enough to set up a decent shock wave or not. I have the Saeco but never ran any test with it. A round nose will yaw a bit but the TC will go straight through.

Now some of you hollow point fans and 45acp buffs will disagree with me. Please resist any urge to tell me I know nothing. It’s my choice to use ammo with superior penetration. I’ve been shooting 9mm for 35 years and have loaded them with assorted ammo types. The Hornady 124-FMJ-FP is my favorite or a cast of same profile. Not the new HAP as it's a small meplate design. Before the Air Force designed the Hornady bullet I used Hornady 357 mag bullets 125g-FP soft nose. They don't expand much shot from a 9mm.

My favorite handgun is my 44 magnum revolver. Not exactly a pocket pistol though. I have a hollow point mold for it as it’s got enough lead mass and power to push them right on through most critters until you get to bears and up.

[bhn22]

My only word of caution is this. You are taking a minimalist approach to self-defense. Instead of preparing for the worst, and hoping for the best, you are hoping for the best, and making minimal preparations. This is your choice, and none of my business, but are you really willing to bet your life on the cheapest self-defense preparations you can make? I'm assuming you are relatively young, which as I remember carries some feeling of invincibility. A more practical approach would be to cast & load practice ammo, and do plenty of both. Use the savings for ammo, $20.00/box seems extravagant when money is tight, but has the potential of paying you back many times over your lifetime.

[robertbank]

I shoot thousands of Lyman's 356402 124 gr boolits out of my 9MM pistols. Great boolit for IDPA/IPSC. For self defense I have a couple of mags of jacketed HP. The former I shoot for fun and practice. The latter, well the chances of ever needing them are remote where I live but I have enough for anything I am likely to have to deal with.

If I really thought I needed a self defense round I would buy whatever the latest "best in class" ammo that was out there. I would still cast my 356402's for playing the games as cardboard targets seldom shoot back and they seem to die quite easily with my boolits cast from WW alloy.

Take Care

Bob

[glw]

Thanks for all the info, folks. This is the type of info I am looking for.

There are a variety of reasons why I want to load my own ammo rather than buy factory ammo. Cost is one reason, but not the only one. I trust the ammo that I load. I can tailor the load to what works best for my gun. I will be shooting this ammo in a Kel-Tec PF-9, and they don't recommend shooting very much +P ammo in it. Most of the defense ammo is +P. (BTW, a 9mm is not my first choice. I am choosing to carry this because of a back injury. One day I hope to return to carrying a full-size revolver.)

I am in an awkward spot in that I am learning much on this forum, but I have little avenue to test anything. I live in a city where I have no avenue to shoot into wet newsprint, etc. to test how a boolit performs. Therefore I have to rely upon your experiences. And with the collective knowledge on this forum, I wouldn't learn as much as you could provide, anyway.

I am not trying to take a minimalist approach, but I am not quick to jump into the hi-tech bullets just because they are new. (Remember, I can't test those bullets, either, and every company says that their bullets works great!) One thing that I have learned from this forum is that sometimes the newer technology (new styles of jacketed bullets) does not always work as well as older technology (cast boolits). If anything, this forum is a response to jacketed bullet technology.

I wondered if people have tested 9mm boolits to see if they work as well or better than jacketed bullets. Because I will be shooting a gun with a 3 inch barrel, I am concerned that I will have expansion. Some of the tests that I have seen indicate that expansion is sometimes questionable with jacketed bullets. And I don't know what sort of penetration I would get if it does expand. One criteria I have is that the bullet has to penetrate to the vitals. If it won't do that, then it won' stop an attacker. (I'm not really that concerned about over-penetration.)

Are jacketed self-defense bullets really better than what we can do with a cast boolit? If we think that a cast boolit works better for hunting, why wouldn't it work better for self-defense, too? (I'm no being critical--I'm just asking a question of the only people that I know of that could answer this question.)

Thank you again for your info. It is very helpful. I am learning much.

Glenn

[Groo]

Groo here
For my pocket 9mm {robaugh} I use a non expanding flat point.
You need to drive deep second [you need to feed ,fire and eject first]
and the shorter barrel will not get enough speed up to open a hollow point
and drive deep enough in some cases, so use a flat point and control the depth
with the weight. [ pressure/energy/speed is fixed by what is needed to function]

[Blammer]

If it were me (and I carried a 9mm for self defense for a long time and never felt under gunned)

I would use a 125-135gr Trun cone nose design and check the velocity via chronograph. I would try to use the heaviest bullet I could get to go the fastest out of my short brled gun.

I would not worry about expanding boolits. Punch holes coming and going, the more the better until the threat stops.

Most encounters will be close Less than 10 feet, good second shots will be important as well as lots of practice.

also, get a chamber gauge, put ALL of your "duty" ammo through it to make sure it will feed and work properly. This idea was introduced to me recently, as I have started to load my own "duty" ammo. (duty is just what I call it, I'm not in LE)

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Gabby,

don't tell the US Army Rangers, SF, SEALs, or the Marine Force Recon people about the 45 being upstaged by the 9mm. They've all gone back to that candy-ass 45 because testing in Iraq and Afghanistan on human targets convinced them it was a better round for killing enemy soldiers.
I spent more than twenty-five months in RVN in the 75th INF (Rangers) and personal tissue testing led me to the same conclusion. A man hit center mass with a 45 acp does not get back up and re-enter the shootout. Just doesn't happen.

The only, I say ONLY reason we have the 9mm is due to NATO allies pressure on the US to use their cartridge. That and the fact that the Italians rescued some military brass got Beretta a contract to build them here for us.

The military, unlike you or I, has no real interest in killing enemy soldiers. The preference is to wound them so additional soldiers are removed from the battlefield to take them back to the rear for medical treatment.

Not even very many police agencies use the nine anymore. There's this thing called the 40 S&W out there I hear...

regards,

Rich

[GabbyM]

Ya gee I sure never heard that argument before.
Sounds to me you just want to stir the pot. OK

First off you are making or repeating untrue claims about experience in the box and what they are indeed currently using. Try talking to someone who has actually been there instead of watching TV. Not saying that nobody want’s a 45. Just that it's not standard issue. Also the BS about a 9 not doing the job in the sand box is just that. Recall when you were in RVN the media said your 1911's were old and jammed twice every time you pulled the trigger. Back then cops carried revolvers and they told me my 1911 would jam in a fight. yeh right. They watched TV too. All you 45 boys get together drinking red whiskey and the rules of physics and forty years of data go out the window. Not to mention one hundred years of military history.

Go back and read what I actually wrote in my first post here. You may learn something.

I’ve know SF guys and a Navy SEAL. Never had to get into such a frivolous argument over 9mm vs. 45 with them. Especially the Army SF man who was a Green Beret medic in VN.
He once told me gut shots were odd. Some men would be gut shot then look down and fall over dead. While others would hardly flinch and he’d have to drag them out of the fight. Most he referred to were ARVN but some US. They weren’t getting shot with some little pistol either. And no it wasn't becaue they were hit in the liver or other places.

Your stories of center mass shots with the big old 45 then not getting up just tells me your full of BS. Thanks for your service and all but you don’t know what you speak. I of course know everything. Yes you have your experience and I’ve got mine. I don’t care if it’s a 9, 10 or 11.45mm. They are all just little pistols. You either hit them or you don’t.
Some times you actually need to penetrate a barrier first.
Only different between a 40 and a 9 is the 9 is better plus cheaper. That’s just a fact that is supported by statistics.

A 45 acp is just a relic. I’d love to have a nice 1911 that shoots under 2 inches at 50 yards but so what. That’s recreation and sport. I load 45 ammo often. Nothing better than a nice 1911. They are just a wonderful piece of work. So what? I’ve some very wonderful paintings on my walls. Cant win a gun fight with one.

How do you know what results you'd of got with a flat point 9mm bullet?
Have you even seen a man shot with a 9MM? I have. Guess what! it worked. Duh
That must mean 9's are the best pistol bullet ever sent down range and anything else is just junk. Actually 9's are the best but that doesn't make anything else junk.

I'll stick with the facts. You can stay with the boys who make up silly pendulum contraptions to prove a 45 is better than a 9 then ignore the facts. Keep up those big tall tale stories of how your enemy falls down every time. Regardless of reality. Your 45 will swing a suspended weight farther than a 9mm . That must mean it’s a better combat round. I’m so tired of hearing that line.


The main reason SF has any 45’s of late is they get issued pistols along with silencers and the low pressure and more certain sub sonic velocity at high altitude works better in a suppressed pistol. Other reason is it makes them feel good. Has absolutely nothing to do with greater ability to put down a target. I've actually never heard of one of those H&K 45's ever being used in combat. I'm sure they do but we don't get those stories. As far as I know the 22 rim-fire pistols DELTA used with cans are still in use. That must mean the 22 rimfire kills better than a 9mm.

Truck drivers and cowboys like big belt buckles too. They don't hold there pants up any better.

[bhn22]

Well, this thread has gone to hell...

[Blammer]

yep, too bad

[MtGun44]

".45 ACP is just a relic . . . . ."

BWAHHH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA. Yeah. Right.

Whatever you say.

Back to the original topic - please try 124 Speer Gold Dots in your test
medium of choice. Really.

Bill

[theperfessor]

Well, I don't normally carry a nine, but I do carry something similar - a S & W 642 in .38 Spcl. I practice with cheap reloads that duplicate the ballistics of my factory HP carry loads. With a revolver functioning is not a problem like it is with an auto, but whatever j-bullet you choose to reload probably has an analog somewhere in the cast bullet world. If its a 125 gr RNHP type then find a 125 gr mold of the same profile and use it to make up loads that are ballistically and functionally as close to your carry load as you can.

Practice a lot. That's one reason to cast bullets. I use the Lee 358-125 RNFP in both revolvers and 9mm. The profile is similar to several HP and FP J-word bullets and works fine in my HiPower.

There are all kinds of reasons to carry guns of different calibers, I'm not going to get into that discussion. Having any gun your competent with that is with you when the trouble starts is always better than having no gun at all.