223 Rem Load Testing

[CWME]

Savage Model 11 stripped and rebuilt with ER Shaw 24" 1-14 twist barrel. Bell Carlson Varmint/Tactical stock. Accutrigger had to be worked over to get it to 2#s. From the factory it wouldn't go under 3#. 3-9 Bushnell scope leaves a lot to be desired with it's thick cross hairs for target work. Nice and clear and will be good for hunting. If anyone has suggestions on a value priced scope with very fine cross hairs I would be interested. (broke down and bought a 6-18 Leopold with very fine cross hairs)

Ran 5-6 patches through new barrel and got to shooting Boolits.

First loads were with the Lyman 225415 and Bullseye. CCI Small Pistol Primers. Alloy is Linotype

The larger # is the powder charge and the smaller # is the OAL.

[CWME]

Based on the results I am not really sure where I am going to proceed from here. I have notes for my Ruger with 1-12 twist that likes 10.1 gr of 2400.

Comments/suggestions are welcome.

These boolits were sized with a .225 Lee push through sizer. Heavy coat of LLA. Full neck was sized as I forgot to adjust the die. Sizer just kisses the shoulder. Bolt closes with a little drag so that should be good.

Got my Lyman M die in so that will be used along with sizing half the neck from here on out. Also going to switch sizing to my 4500 @ .225 with Lyman Super moly lube for now. Thinking of trying Bullshops lotak or speed green.

[legend]

LOTAK OR SPEED GREEN are both excelent lubes,i am shooting both.

[Doc Highwall]

CWME, the Lotak is a less sticky version of Speed Green. Who's dies are you using to size half the neck? The neck should be sized to at least to where the base of the bullet will be in the neck or slightly more. I have Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizing Dies that work great.

[CWME]

I was thinking of the speed green over the newer Lotak due to it being a known performer. I might just try both once I get a better handle on the 223 loads.

Thanks for the heads up with the neck sizing Doc.

I have the FL Redding comp bushing dies. Had great luck with this die set and my 223 highpower loads.

Going to go back to the 4 gr load and a 3gr load that is not shown. 4gr had a long OAl, 3gr had a short OAL. Going to run both 3 and 4 with both OAls and see where I end up. Also going to try the 2400 load that my ruger likes for a baseline.

I should also mention that I am shooting at the 50 yard line. These are also the solid 225415 not a HP. The HP cav shoots better in my Ruger m77 but I am getting ready for my NOE rcbs 22-55 and the NOE 225107 which are both going to be solids.

[Doc Highwall]

CWME, the Redding Competition Bushing Neck Dies are expensive but the one great feature besides having the ability to change the bushing's in .001" increments is that the whole case is held by the sliding chamber sleeve for best alignment before any neck sizing takes place. The only other die that comes close is the LEE collet die but the drawbacks to it are that the mandrills that the collet presses the case neck against come in only one size in most calibers unless special order and adjustment is critical. Yes you can order one for a .311" for some 30 calibers but the length of the mandrel with the decapping pin will be the wrong length on others. The Redding die will also let you partially size the neck in .001" increments and are repeatable with the micrometer feature and with the LEE you can only size the whole neck.

[Larry Gibson]

Might also pick up a 225462 mould if you run across one. That is the most accurate bullet in my 7, 9, 12 and 14" twist .223s. Very good choice with the 14" twist BTW.

Larry Gibson

[CWME]

Got some more testing done today. 11 gr of 4227 looks good with one flier. 5 gr bullseye looks ok as well. Looks like a shorter OAL for the 5gr BE load will be tested again.

[CWME]

Might also pick up a 225462 mould if you run across one. That is the most accurate bullet in my 7, 9, 12 and 14" twist .223s. Very good choice with the 14" twist BTW.

Larry Gibson

Larry,
My 225462 came in tonight and I got a bunch cast, sized, and lubed. Should be able to load tomorrow night.
I see in some other posts you suggest starting with 18gr 4895 with .5 dacron and going from there. Is the Dacron there to help with ignition with the reduced charge?
I am a little leary to start that high. I went that route with the Saeco 221(18gr + +) and the results were horible out of my Ruger 12 twist. Most rounds missed the backer it was so bad. Granted those loads did not have the dacron.
How many lube grooves do you fill? I started with 1 for now.

[Larry Gibson]

I use Javelina lube and lube all the grooves excepth the front scraper. My general recommendation is 18 gr to ensure functioning of most ARs and Mini14s. With the bolt gun go ahead and start lower at 15 gr. The dacron is there to better ignition. Depending on the flavor of your 4895 at some point it will start burning efficiently. You've just got to find that "start" point and work from there. Keep us posted on your progress.

Larry Gibson

[CWME]

Ahh the 18gr start makes sense. Thanks for the info Larry. With the loads I put together tonight I should find that point of efficient burn.

I have some loaded starting at 15 gr moving up to 18 in 1 gr steps. Should beable to shoot them tomorrow if the weather clears out. Winds gusting over 40mph today with rain.

I loaded 5gr of Bullseye with the 225462. This was grouping fairly well with the 225415 so I will give it a try. I also have some that I bumped up to 7.5 gr of BE just to see what they will do.
11 gr of 4227 is also loaded with the 225462.

I hope to have time to get back to the 225415 before my 225107 gets in. Kind of hard to do a lot of testing with 1 cav solid and 1 cav HP. 100+ drop cycles with the mold to get a box of boolits to test gets tiring.

Notes:
-225462 will not chamber unless the nose is seated at the start of the lands. I can't close the bolt with the boolit seated out farther. This puts the GC down into the powder space and well below the neck junction.
-Dacron was loose fiber from an old pillow and not the flat matting type. .5 gr was loaded over the powder.

[CWME]

Not what I was looking for but that is half the fun.

Due to the rifle being a new build and not a proven platform I started to wonder if it was an issue with the rifle. I had planned on this being a 100% cast rifle but I pulled out some jacketed stuff to prove the platform. 50gr PSP with 27 gr of BLC-(2) and 20 rounds went into a ragged hole. So the issue is not with the rifle. I now need to clean the copper out but it eased my concerns on the platform considerably.

[CWME]

The 225462 may get put on the back burner for now. I am thinking that I will need to nose size these so that I can seat them out of the case more.

Back to casting the 225415 one at a time until my NOE 225107 comes in.

[Larry Gibson]

The 225462 may get put on the back burner for now. I am thinking that I will need to nose size these so that I can seat them out of the case more.

Back to casting the 225415 one at a time until my NOE 225107 comes in.

That's too bad, my shortest leade throat (M70 XTR) allows the 225462 to be seated so the top of the GC is still slightly in the neck. My 21" Contender barrel isn't much longer. The 225462 is the most accurate cast .225 bullet I've used. Sometimes things just don't work out........:???: Might a 225438 be in the works, you might be able to trade the 225462 for one?

Larry Gibson

[CWME]

I am going to hang onto the 225462. It cast so nice and the gas checks fit on without a lot of fuss and cussing. The boolets fall out of the mold with no tapping... Pour, sprue hardens up a few secs later, cut, open and drop... pour, 2 sec wait, cut, open and drop... on and on with no issues. I love this little mold. I burned through 6 pounds of lino the other night in no time flat.
In contrast my Saeco #221 does not drop the boolets without a good rap. The GCs HAVE to be anealed and then opened slightly with a brass RN punch I made. Not a fun time. I shoot and load to relax from stress at work. This little ba$*ard stresses me out.

I am willing to bet that the 225462 will be a dandy in the AR. My Ruger 12 twist has a longer throat so they will get some range time in that. The Shaw barrel definately has a short throat. But I half expected this with the 14 twist. The jacketed stuff was made for my Ruger and that had a hard bolt close in the Savage.

Anyway I will keep playing with the 225415 for now in the Savage.

[CWME]

Decided to give the 225462 another try in the Savage. This time I seated long and slapped the bolt home to engrave the boolit. Started off with 4227 and nothing too exciting. Then some NOE 225107 with BE. Maiden voyage for the 225107 went ok. Different story.

Barrel was HOT by now. Gave it a few mins to settle the heat waves a bit and then shot the 15 gr 4895 loads. Couldn't believe it so I fired the second ten shot group. Still in disbelief I fired the 15.5gr 4895 loads. Still wondering if the Sun, Stars, and Moon aligned or something.... This is exactly what I was looking for!!

Loads as stated were with H4895. I did not use the dacron this time(lazy). CCI standard pistol primers. Lyman super moly in two grooves. Hornady GC, not anealed. Seated with my standard RCBS seater die. Nothing special with the loads. Charges were thrown and not measured. Figured that they were not going to shoot very well and I wasn't going to waste time with techniqe...

Anyway :holysheep

[CWME]

Figured I would show a picture of the rifle I put together for this project. Please excuse the clutter...

[CWME]

Got back to the range for some more testing. Brought along the new NOE 22-55 along with the NOE 225107. I also fired the 225462 H4895 loads again. Had a good relaxing hour plinking away.

It took the barrel 4 shots to settle in. I started with the 15gr H4895 load on the upper left. This time with one lube groove filled and sized in my first home made Star sizer to .2245.

OFF TOPIC: I fired some of the 225107s out of my NEF Handi in 22 hornet. 7.5gr of H110 left a lot to be desired. Un-burned powder in the barrel etc. Vertical stringing is evident. I am going to try some Mag pistol primers and see if that fixes the issue but that is a different rifle and caliber.

The NOE 22-55 is a tack driver. Fits the short throat on this barrel perfectly. The bolt closes without effort which I really like VS the 225462. The top of the GC is seated to the base of the neck with the NOE boolit.

With the warm up needed to get the rifle shooting I am wondering if a softer Lube would help with this. I was left with the same impression of the Lyman Super Moly lube in my 308 win testing. No idea if I am correct or not so i will have to test the idea. Really need to get with Bullshop here soon and get some of his lubes to try...

[CWME]

131072131071131070Not sure where the time went with this project. Hard to believe that I started this in 2011. Anyway, project update.


I set the barrel back and rechambered to .222 Remington. The short neck on the 223 chamber was an issue with anything other than the NOE 22-55. Got it out to the range this afternoon with decent results right off the bat. 10 degrees today with a bone chilling wind. I was firing at 50 yards. Also got to fire my new 22-250. it is a Savage model 11 and basically a twin to the rifle I built for this thread. I fired the NOE 22-45 for the first time. Looking forward to what this boolit can do on the tree rats at camp. With it's HUGE meplat it should anchor them really well.

[quilbilly]

In my T/C carbine 223 I have been using Bullseye as well but the tiny charge made me so nervous about the possibility of an overcharge (I actually deliberately did a double charge to see what it looked like in the case and couldn't tell the difference) that I went in search of something safer. Yesterday I tried an 11.7 gr RE-7 charge and it gave me the precise same group at 70 yards so no more Bullseye.

[CWME]

I understand the reservations of using fast pistol powders completely. You have to get a system down when using them for sure. I generally load without a radio or the TV on so I can pay attention. If the Kids or the Wife comes down I find other tasks to work on.


My next project will be a short .223 to optimize the burn for H4895. Or that is the idea anyway. May just give a .221 fireball a go and see if I can get what I am looking for when burning H4895. Looking for clean burn and no dacron.

What kind of accuracy are you seeing quilbilly? What boolit are you running?

[TCLouis]

The 222 has roughly 89.8% the capacity of the 223 and I have found in some testing that one can ratio powder charges accordingly.

START LOW OR NOT AT ALL AND WORK UP

This has been especially true with the 30-06 and 7.7X58.

I have worked up in the 7.7 and the most accurate load has so far compared to the 06.

May be just those two guns where this load ratio works, but I am going to try it with my 222 here after lunch comparing to your223 loads.

788 and TC Contender.

[CWME]

I guess I should give the 15gr H4895 load that my .223 likes a spin in the .222 TCLouis. I just figured the percentage the 15gr load was from a max load and used the samefigure in the .222, IE the 14GR load.


But as I mentioned my goal is to find a case where 14-15gr of H4895 burns clean without dacron. Not sure why but stuffing dacron for a clean burn rubs me the wrong way. Lazy maybe?