What would you consider "standard velocity" for 45ACP 230 ball?

[HammerMTB]

I s'pose I'm having a senior moment. I'm certain I once knew the velocity of issue 230 ball ammo from a .45 ACP.
Using the 175,000 power factor, I surmise it to be about 750FPS (you'd get 760 via calculation)
but I thought I'd ask here. Haven't owned a .45 for a while, in the last week I raised that by 2.
I want to load something to closely resemble ball ammo, but need a point to aim for.
What say those with a better memory (or a reference) :D

[HeavyMetal]

O.K. the Speer number 8 reloading manual has a section on page 336 showing loads that have been chony'd as well as the supposed factory velocity.

45 ACP 5 inch barrel WCC67 is supposed to run850 FPS it actually tested at 833FPS

Norma 230 HP tested at 818FPS Federal tested at 844, Remington at 848

Hope this helps out.

[Kraschenbirn]

According to my copy of Barnes "Cartridges of the World" Mil Spec for M1911 Ball (230 gr FMJ) was 855 fps in both the General Issue and Match loadings.

Bill

[geargnasher]

According to my copy of Barnes "Cartridges of the World" Mil Spec for M1911 Ball (230 gr FMJ) was 855 fps in both the General Issue and Match loadings.

Bill

+1, my reference as well. I always try to get at least 800 out of my 4" Kimber and 840 or so with my longslides with 230-grain cast boolits. The high end of the Unique or Universal spectrum is about right to get there without too much muzzle flip.

Gear

[HammerMTB]

Thanks all. More than my guesstimation, and more than the store-bought ball ammo I chrony'd yesterday. At the least it gives me a data point to "shoot" for

[shotman]

I hope you are loading copper jacket ball , If you try cast at that load you will lead a barrel and target will look like a shotgun hit it

[waksupi]

Shotman, I'm not positive about that. I have been running some cast boolets through my 1911 that are WAY hot, and getting no leading. Once I shoot the rest up I won't load any more of them, though, no sense in beating up the gun that much.

[mroliver77]

I have to side with Ric on that Shotman. I have loaded max book loads of Unique even loads from older manuals and got no leading and superb accuracy. Even my .357 and .44 Magnum revolvers have been loaded with pedal to the metal cast loads and performed excellent. I learned how to do this at "Cast Boolits"
Jay

[DJ1]

I generally keep it 800-850 fps with CB's and never have an issue. I've run j stuff up to 1000, but is hard on gun.

[Mk42gunner]

I never chronoed any of the G.I. loads that we shot. I did shoot a few of the Winchester white box 230 gr ball out of my 5" Kimber a few years ago. It was running an anemic 755 fps.

Robert

[LowPE]

Boolit fit, a decent lube, and there should be no leading at 850 fps.

I have shot thousands of lymans 225 gr rn at that level. No problemo. It does recoil more than the weak IDPA/USPSA loads at 165,000 pf which is 733 fps.

[casterofboolits]

I consider 850/875 FPS a standard load using 225/230 grain cast boolits.

When I first started IPSC in the early 80's, my two buddies ( both local LEOs) and I were loading Lyman #452374 45-225-RNPB over a hefty, but not max load of Unique.

One of our IPSC shooters had just gotten a chronograph and we pulled three rounds from random mags at the firing line from all shooters. He started the meeting on the results with the followng statement. "There are three guys here that I do not want to chrono again!" He then named the three of us. He was not realy mollified when I told him we were .5 grains under a max load. We also had the highest PF of the 46 loads he put accross the chronograph.

As an example, one stage had a target mostly placed behind a metal trash can that was filled with planks of oak firewood. One of my buddies pulled a low shot and it went thru the can and the wood scoring an "A" hit.

These were the fun days before comped race guns took over the sport.

We did back off the loads a bit and changed to 231 when we started using 200 grain H&G #68's.

[Larry Gibson]

Most lots of US .45 cal ball run 790 - 810 fps out of my Colt Commander with 4 1/2" barrel. Out of a Wilson 5 1/2" match barrel those same lots run 860 - 875 fps. Out of a standard 5" barrel of a Colt Series 70 M1911 the same lots of ball run 830 - 845 fps.

I recorded the following velocities with a test of .45 ACP factory ammo for a Sheriff's Department;

All loads chronographed with Oehler M11 or M35p chronograph using 10 shot strings with center of screens at 10 feet.
CCI 230 gr FMJ Blazer; 812 fps
CCI 200 gr TMJ Match; 960 fps
CCI 200 gr HP Blazer; 917 fps
CCI 200 gr HP Lawman; 889 fps
Fed 230 Hydra shock; 868 fps
Fed 185 gr HP; 946 fps
Win 185 gr HP Silvertip; 961 fps
Rem 185 HP +P; 1101 fps

I have also chronographed several generic "hardball' loads as of the 10 years and they all were 750 - 810 fps indicating a "dumbing down" of .45 ACP hardbal loads.

The IPSC lower major limit was set for shorter barreled .45 ACP handguns to be able to still make major. "Back in the day" of early IPSC any 4 1/2" to 5" .45 ACP would easily make major with any factory or GI hardball using a ballistic pendelum or a chronograph. That may not be the case today.

Larry Gibson

[fredj338]

Push much over 850fps & you are out of "ball" ammo range. Much under 825fps & you are into target vel range.
If you are trying to make an honest 175PF, you need 775fps w/ a 230gr bullet.

[35remington]

COB's comments about the Lyman 452374 and a "hefty but not over max" charge of Unique gives me the impression he may have lifted the charge to use out of one of the Lyman manuals, somewhere between number 45 to number 49, which is the current one.

They list up to 7.3 grains Unique. This load is dated and gives far more velocity than they list with that charge under that bullet. Even greatly less, like 6.5 grains, considerably exceeds ball velocities and easily exceeds the velocity they list for 7.3 grains.

If he was loading, say, seven grains even, the chrono'ed velocity would have certainly got the rangemaster's attention.

And for good reason.

[mpmarty]

Original mil spec acceptance was 230gr ball at 855fps. I usually load my cast to that level.

[firefly1957]

I'll add one I chronoed Corebon 165gr +p out of Sig P-245 3 3/4" it does 1200f/s out of 1911 5" it sailed over screens at 1420f/s. I have chonoed 230 gr hard ball out of 1911 at between 800 and 850 do not remember lots or brands.

[VenomBallistics]

I hope you are loading copper jacket ball , If you try cast at that load you will lead a barrel and target will look like a shotgun hit it

glad you told me ... AFTER I fired 500 rounds of it without issue

[Kraschenbirn]

I hope you are loading copper jacket ball , If you try cast at that load you will lead a barrel and target will look like a shotgun hit it

Uhmmmm...back in late 80s and early 90s, I shot a lot of IPSC/NRA Action/Pin Matches and would run 15-20,000 rounds a year through my comp guns...all hard-cast H&G 68s at 900 fps. The only serious leading I ever encountered was build-up in the ports of the comp.

Bill

[LowPE]

The IPSC lower major limit was set for shorter barreled .45 ACP handguns to be able to still make major. "Back in the day" of early IPSC any 4 1/2" to 5" .45 ACP would easily make major with any factory or GI hardball using a ballistic pendelum or a chronograph. That may not be the case today.

Larry Gibson

Interesting point. I know in IDPA they test with the longest barrel possible for each class -- used to be a problem when the only 5" 9mm was a rather uncommon 1911 but with the popularity of the S&W now it is not a problem.

[HangFireW8]

Original mil spec acceptance was 230gr ball at 855fps. I usually load my cast to that level.

Keep in mind that was muzzle velocity (calculated) not crono'd. The difference iirc is about 25 fps.

[pdawg_shooter]

I hope you are loading copper jacket ball , If you try cast at that load you will lead a barrel and target will look like a shotgun hit it

I load a hard cast 200gr SWC to just over 1000fps in 3 different 45s. No leading.

[ChuckS1]

Two links for duplicating hardball loads. The first is from the American Rifleman with handload data.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/reloads.htm

The second is TM 43-0001-27, ARMY AMMUNITION DATA SHEETS SMALL CALIBER AMMUNITION FSC 1305. The .45 ACP ball ammo specs are on page 8-13. Even has the national match target ammo specs, too.

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf

[35remington]

A few comments about the posted links above.

First, the average velocity given for ball ammo of 885 fps + or - 25 fps is easily the highest "standard" velocity for ball I've ever seen......and seems in error for that reason. Other military technical manuals more current with the time the 45 ACP was still officially the military's sidearm give a noticeably lower average velocity, more on the order of 30 to 50 fps slower.

So consider 885 fps somewhat excessive, at least in pistol length barrels.

Further, the first link has load data that is not accurate in replicating ball velocities, given a 230 FMJ of correct profile that is loaded to a correct OAL approximating 1.260" to 1.265."

4.6 of Bullseye, for instance, is too slow to replicate ball velocities. At least five grains is needed to get in the ballpark, and even this is on the low end of ball spec at about 800-810 fps in my five inch 1911's.

6.5 Unique is too fast. This will produce velocities of the rather erroneous 885 fps and faster in a five inch.

[ChuckS1]

The first link specified the use of a 200-220 grain WC, such as the 452460. It does provide a range, from 4.6 to 5.0 grains of a variety of powders, so I imagine it depends on the shooter's pistol. The same was true for the Unique load, with a range of 6.0 -6.5 grains of Unique, again subject tot he individual firearm.

As far as the second link being "in error", I guess you can take that up with the US Army, seeing as how that's it's current spec for .45 ball ammo. I'm sure the Army would appreciate knowing about the mistake. ;)

[35remington]

Read the first link you provided more closely this time and you will now see what I was referencing......your statement in your first paragraph above has nothing to do with what I was talking about. They specify loads for a 230 FMJ listed below the load you reference for the lighter bullet labeled as "Loads to Duplicate Military Ball Ammo", and not a range, either, but a specific charge. These are inaccurate, and I stand by what I said, just as stated.

I did not miss anything.

The Army spec is in error. No question. Spec is closer to 800-850; see earlier Army manuals during the time the 1911 was in active duty for the entire military.

885 +- 25 fps is too high. Again, no question. This would make 860 fps the low velocity and 910 fps the high velocity, which is an incorrect ball duplication range. The Army makes mistakes all the time.

This is one of them. Perhaps because the 1911 had been replaced for nearly a decade when this "new spec" came about and that little 45 ACP is shot any more. It's an error.

It would be a further error to attempt to duplicate this rather high velocity range and call it "ball duplication." It is not. I've shot a pretty fair amount of military ball made by "Olin Mathison Chemical Corporation" as well as others in the plain brown boxes with black lettering and none of it, when chronographed in actual guns, came anywhere near that for an average.....certainly none of it fell between 860 and 910 fps for an average, even when chronographed at 10 feet from the muzzle rather than the 25.5 feet in the spec.

Believe that spec if you wish, but I will not. Past manuals and actual testing disagree most clearly.

[HangFireW8]

I like the "SHIOTGUN" shell on page 2-11.

Army manuals can and do have mistakes. The spec SHOULD read 835 +/- 25 fps at the cronograph position, which comes out to a little over 850fps at the muzzle- in other words, what all the WWI and WWII manuals say.

This mistake is especially interesting as this manual is contemporary with Desert Storm, when the 1911A1 was not yet entirely replaced by the M9 and an emergency buy of commercial Winchester "USA" ball ammo at ~735fps was made to fill them.

[35remington]

About three years after Desert Storm, actually.