44 Mag - 240 gr LSWC and 2400 advice needed

[ShrinkMD]

I've been looking at different loadbooks and getting ready to make up my first batch of loads for my new 44 magnum.

I found the MidwayUSA loadmap, dated 1998, and it suggests 2400 at a starting charge of 15.1 with the 240 gr Hornady LSWC, and ends at 20 gr.

I am not recoil shy with my 357 magnum, but I know 44 mag is more powerful, and I haven't shot one before. Would I be well served making up a ladder of charges starting at 15.1 and work toward the 20 gr load, or should I use Bullseye (my other powder at home) to make some lighter rounds, say 5.5 gr up to 7 or 8 (I've found sources saying the old max was 9.8, but lots of people say that's not a good choice for 44 magnum)

I know that the peak accuracy for lower loads of 2400 won't be as good as a fuller case of it, but I just want to get started somewhere safe, and somewhere shootable for a 44 beginner.

[thegatman]

I use 17-19 g of 2400 with that bullet weight. It kicks but it very accurate from my Ruger Super blackhawks. (7.5 inch and 10.5 inch barrels) I also use H110 (22.3-22.8g)with magnum primers. Very hot load.
Hope this helps .

[curiousgeorge]

I used to shoot 20.0 - 21.0 grs 2400 but have switched to 23.0 -24.0 grs H110, but these are with 240 gr Hornady XTP jacketed bullets. Both are stout loads but from a 7.5" and 5.5" Ruger SBH, both with Pachmayr grips, are not really that hard to handle. Thegatman gave good advice on his loads and I would probably not load any lower or higher until you decided if the recoil from that powder range suits you. You will also need to see if the swaged lead Hornady bullet will perform O.K. at those velocities. Bullseye would not be my first choice for reduced loads. Others will probably have better choices, but I shot a 200 (?) count box of those several years ago with 8.0 grs of Unique with no leading and acceptable accuracy.

Steve

[Dale53]

It might be a good idea to let us know what .44 Magnum revolver you have.

At any rate, for my Model 29 (8 3/8" barrel), Model 629 (4") and Ruger Super Blackhawk and Ruger SS Red Hawk, I use only full loads (I have several .44 Specials for light and medium loads).

2400 will work fine but long ago I decided I didn't like all of the unburned grains of powder left to gum up the works.

I went to H110/296. I settled on a Keith 250 gr cast bullet (either Lyman's 429421 or H&G #503). Lyman #2 is a good bullet alloy for full loads. I load 23.0 grs of H110 for my practice load (easier on the revolver for long term use) and 24.0 grs of H110 for hunting. I have taken several deer with this load.
The maximum listed load is 25.0 grs of H110.

The recoil is substantial and may not be everyone's cup of tea. I can keep most rounds on a playing card at 100 yards from a rest. It's a pair of reliable rounds in my guns.

A good medium load is the same bullet ahead of 8.5-9.0 grs of Unique. A good light load is 5.0 grs of Bullseye.

All of the above loads are in .44 Magnum brass.

Dale53

[bobthenailer]

For loads in the 800 to 1,000 fps range in the 44 mag loaded in 44 mag cases ! I have had excellent results with Bullseye and tightgroup powder in 6 different 44 mag revolvers. and many different cast bullets from 200 to 300 grs. they are my go to powders excluslively ! not only in the 44 mag but in 357 mag & 454 casull for that approx velocity level .

[ShrinkMD]

Oops, sorry I forgot to post the details. I have the 629 V-comp gun with the 4" barrel, using Starline 44 mag brass and Federal or CCI large pistol primers. The bullets are 240 gr lswc from Dardascast, supposed to be 16 bhn.

I'm not that worried about the unburned kernels of 2400, since I'm used to that from using it in 357 magnum loads. I just want safe, controllable loads for me to acclimate myself to the gun.

[Tracy]

I'm pretty sure those Hornady bullets are swaged soft lead, and not a good choice for anything over 1000 fps or so.
According to my Lee book, 9.8 Bullseye is pressure tested at 34,400 psi and 1175 fps. That is well within spec, but probably would cause leading. 8.9 is the listed starting load. Personally, I would use 7 grains of Bullseye. I have used it, and it shot well. It is a nice, moderate load that is comparable to factory .45 Colt loads.

[FLtrainer]

I know this post has almost nothing to do with the thread, but please bear with my rant.

Guys you’ve made me home sick, its time to get back into the sport/hobby I love; hunting, shooting, reloading and casting. For too long I’ve been involved in the security industry training armed security and armored car personnel back in N.Y. and it had taken over my life, I really enjoyed the training.

Dale you especially have 44magitis. I have it also but on a lesser scale. My first 44 was a Ruger SBH that I found while camping in Glen Falls, NY, I bought it because I couldn’t find a 29 because of the Dirty Harry craze. I was crazed also, so the Ruger was next best.

I have a mdl. 29, 61/2” bbl. that I picked up for $200 back in the 70’s. It was made between 64 and 65 as per the serial #. The gun is beautiful; you can see your face in the bluing. The guy I bought it from kept it clean but shot the heck out of it. I also had the 3” 29, S&W made (5K) back in the 80’s.

Once I got the 29, the SBH went into mothballs (I love that 29). Since the SBH wasn’t being used I gave it to my brother. As the years passed I began missing the SBH so I traded my brother the 3” 29 for the SBH, it was good to have it back.

So now, I’ve taken my casting equipment out of mothballs and bought some new stuff also. Back in the day when I was casting I used the Lyman 429244 255gr. GC bullet in front of 22. grs of Win. 296 powder which was a below max load.

Dale the 100yd shooting hit me just right. Back then my buddy’s and I used a range out in Calverton on Long Island. I was a sand pit owned by a cement company; it had 50yd pistol, 100 and 200 yd rifle/pistol ranges and also trap and skeet. We would shoot at swollen pint jugs filled with water that sat in the sun and were ready to explode. At this range you could shoot at targets other than paper as long as you cleaned up after yourself. We would take the jugs and toss them onto the 100yd. berm; the front sight of the 29 covered the jug at that distance, so your holding as steady as you can and let one go. Now my eyes were much, much younger then and by no means did I connect with consistency, but when I did the jug would take off like a little rocket. Those were the days and great memories for me.

Dale I’m going to pickup the Lyman's Keith 429421 and 429640 250 Gr Devastator HP GC mould and give your loads a try. You might be asking yourself about the HP and hogs, I don’t think I’ll use them on the hogs, its just that I always wanted to cast HP’s......go figure. Maybe I'm having a senior moment?

Now its time to relax and shoot some hogs down here in Florida.

Thanks for listening guys……Carl

[LowPE]

That you are asking this question, i would recommend that you ladder your load up. Hey, it can't hurt and will acclimate you to the revolver. You can ladder up quite easily with 20 to 30 rounds.

I too went from 357 mag to 44 mag and now to 500 mag and working up the loads adds to peace of mind.

[mdi]

The 15 gr. load of 2400 sounds OK for starter loads. I have a load of 17.0 under a Lynan 429421 cast from wheel weights that works well in 2 of my .44 mag. revolvers. To familiarize yourself with your new gun you could just buy a box of .44 Specials and shoot those (I have not had any problem with the "special ring" left in the cylinder from shooting specials in magnums). The you'll also have some .44 Special brass to play around with...

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned those Hornady swaged bullets are soft lead and best kept under 1000 fps (maybe 900 fps) unless you like mining lead out of revolver barrels. My standard load for the Hornady or Speer swaged 240 gr lead bullets is 5 gr Bullseye in special cases and 6 gr Bullseye in Magnum cases. Both are pleasant and accurate .44 Special level loads that give no leading.

Larry Gibson

[ShrinkMD]

I was thinking about getting 44 special brass, but I already have a 625, so I am already set up to shoot 230 gr at 800 fps or so. I figure making up batches of 25 and increasing by 0.5 gr of 2400 each batch.

I was also thinking about the 5.5 to 9.8 Bullseye range.

[EDK]

Using 44 Special brass can create problems with a carbon ring in 44 Magnum cylinders...likewise 38 Special in a 357 Magnum. You can purchase "Cowboy loads" in magnum brass at 44 Special velocities for factory lite loads.

I had some leading problems with BH 15 boolits, so the last casting session was 10-to-12 hardness Mihec and MMA10MM clones of 429421. The load was 7.5 of HERCO; previously 6-to-7.0 of TITEGROUP or HP38.

The ladder is the correct approach to hotter loads. You might want to check data for maximum loads from several sources....older manuals have considerably different powder charges from the newer ones....2400 in particular has been changed and the newer loads are reduced.

You might want to investigate other powders with a burn rate between 2400 and BULLSEYE...they are kind of the two extremes. UNIQUE or HERCO or HP38/231 are good performers, especially in the shorter barrels.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

PS I've got a 3 inch and 5 inch S&W 625 from the "gun of the week" period at S&W in the 80s/90s. I need to get busy with the NOE wadcutter mould for them. You might also take a look at the full wadcutter moulds for your 44. A full wadcutter in 44 or 45 makes some impressive holes in the targets.

[ShrinkMD]

I just finished up making up my first loads. I made batches of 20, with Bullseye at 5, 6,7, 8, and 9 grains, and 2400 at 15.1, 16, 17, 18, and 19. According to all the load data I've looked at, these are all below max (9.8 for the Bullseye and 20 for the 2400)

In an older copy of Quickload, I get safe data for this range, with low end Bullseye estimating 756 up to 1144 with the 9 gr load. For the 2400, it says 1038 to 1324.

We'll see what the actual velocities come out at. Would the V-Comp on the gun make any difference? The barrel isn't actually ported, as the comp fits on the end of the gun, after the rifling, so in theory it shouldn't matter. Another day when I have more of the same load I can try taking the compensator off and putting the regular muzzle piece on to see if it changes the numbers or accuracy any.

I hope I can handle the recoil of the higher charges. It should be a pretty neat day going from the mid 700's all the way up to 1300 with the same bullet! I'll post the chrony data when I collect it, hopefully this weekend.

[ShrinkMD]

I had a great day shooting the new gun. The bore was almost spotless. I used the Lewis Lead remover after 200 rounds to make sure the forcing cone and bore were clear before I shot a couple of factory rounds, and nothing came out on the patch. I have shot my 686 and had more come out, so leading the bore was not a problem. The compensator got pretty filthy on the inside, and the usual revolver nooks and crannies needed scrubbing. The bore was the least of my worries.

So here are the numbers:
New Starline 44Mag cases, Federal LP primers, 1.600", Dardascast 240gr LSWC (bhn 16) all shot from my 4" 629 V-Comp Performance Center (with the comp attached)

Bullseye 5.0
High: 745.8
Low: 708.2
E.S.: 37.6
Ave.: 721.4 737.5
S.D.: 9.1
95%: 4.5

Bullseye 6.0
High: 842.9
Low: 809.4
E.S.: 33.5
Ave.: 817.6 831.9
S.D.: 8.2
95%: 4.3

Bullseye 7.0
High: 934.4
Low: 901.7
E.S.: 32.7
Ave.: 914.9 927.9
S.D.: 7.9
95%: 3.9

Bullseye 8.0
High: 1016
Low: 981.8
E.S.: 34.2
Ave.: 1001.6 1012
S.D.: 6.8
95%: 3.3

Bullseye 9.0
High: 1079
Low: 1057
E.S.: 22
Ave.: 1070 1077
S.D.: 6.1
95%: 3

2400 15.1
High: 957.5
Low: 878.7
E.S.: 78.8
Ave.: 915.5 953.3
S.D.: 26.4
95%: 13

2400 16.0
High: 1020
Low: 913.9
E.S.: 106.1
Ave.: 973.5 1013
S.D.: 26
95%: 12.8

2400 17.0
High: 1066
Low: 978
E.S.: 88
Ave.: 1034 1061
S.D.: 21
95%: 10.4

2400 18.0
High: 1155
Low: 1087
E.S.: 68
Ave.: 1117.5 1150
S.D.: 19
95%: 9.3

2400 19.0
High: 1199
Low: 1146
E.S.: 53
Ave.: 1172.5 1197
S.D.: 15.2
95%: 7.5

And for control purposes, I lit off a couple of American Eagle 240 gr SJHP factory rounds, which were supposed to go 1230 or so I believe.
High: 1292
Low: 1238
E.S.: 54
Ave.: 1265 1276
S.D.: 17.6
95%: 27.2

I know the numbers are small, but isn't it interesting that the SD keeps getting smaller with both loads, although the Bullseye were all decent (actually among the best I've ever had for revolver loads) The 2400 were tightening up as we moved up.

Does my velocity look ok? Is it possible to load a 2400 LSWC with 2400 powder and duplicate that factory load, or do I need a different powder? If I was happy shooting the 18 or 19 grain load, will these prematurely wear and shake the gun loose? Do these loads count as "full house" or hot enough to do so?

I still need to sight it in better and work on my flinch. I was ok with the lighter loads, but the hotter ones had me a little low and to the right, and a bit scattered at the end. I was also getting tired after 200 rounds!

Any ideas on what to try next?

[Dale53]

FLtrainer;
I suggest you might want to download Glen Fryxell's book on cast bullets. It is the best book on cast bullets for handgun use I have read. I downloaded it and had it bound at my local Staples store. Many thanks to "cbrick" for converting it to pdf form for easy downloading:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

He has a good bit of information on hunting with cast hollow point bullets.

I must say that all of my deer have been taken with solid bullets (Lyman 429421 or H&G #503) but if I had to do it all over again, I would probably go with hollow point bullets. That includes black bear and hogs, too.

Dale53

[FLtrainer]

Thanks dale, I found Fryxell book the other day on the LASC site and downloaded it. I also DL'd Joe Brennan's collection on casting info.

Thanks again........Carl

[Dark Helmet]

Go ahead the rest of the way to the max(or your max) a half grain at a time. If you make the book max velocity early, it's time to stop.
I ran those Hornady swaged ( or was it Speer?) SWC with the full book load of 2400 with no leading thru a 5" S&W Classic.

[LowPE]

To work on your flinch, load only 5, so you will have one dry fire per cylinder. You will really notice your dump (if you have one).

Great data

[Longwood]

To work on your flinch, load only 5, so you will have one dry fire per cylinder. You will really notice your dump (if you have one).

Great data
Excellent advice!
Have a friend load the five for you so you don't know which chamber is empty.

[ShrinkMD]

Yeah, I started doing that toward the end of the day. I need to get back to doing my prohands exercises. It reminded me if how I used to do that with the "hot" factory 130 gr fmj WWB 38 special loads when I was starting out. I really need to bring my 22 pistol out more often.

[bobthenailer]

To clean the lead build up from the comp shoot full charges of slow pistol ball powder aka 296 & H110 , Lilgun or surplus ww 820 slow, with jacketed bullets. you will be amazed !
I also have a V comp and 4 other handguns with comps and this works well . Arrendo accesroies
also makes a comp cleaning tool that i use in conjunction with the slow powders and J bullets to get the lead out ! i also have a outer foul out but its to slow it breaks the lead down in layers and there are several layers

[songdog53]

The question of 2400 is one that can say i have loaded 44 mag. for years with 2400 and most accurate and best powder i have used. I know there are many and i use W 296 in my 44 mag rifle loads and still use 2400 in my 44 pistols and yes it leaves partials that i once called looked like sand in gun but still use it. To each his own and everyone has their favorite and this happens to mine. Not to say there are powders out there that do better but as have gotten old and set in ways i find if it works don't fix it. Getting old isn't for the timid.

[ShrinkMD]

As far as brass life and durability of the gun, how much of a difference would it make to use an 18 or 19 gr load of 2400 vs the 20 to 20.5 max load?

[EDK]

As far as brass life and durability of the gun, how much of a difference would it make to use an 18 or 19 gr load of 2400 vs the 20 to 20.5 max load?

I think so. Your S&W should have the endurance package enhancements...I have an older model 29 that doesn't. BUT a steady diet of the hotter loads will shake it loose a lot faster. A S&W is like an arabian horse; a SUPER RED HAWK is like a Clydesdale. There's a world of difference....and you don't really need the hot stuff to shoot targets.

PS Carpal tunnel ain't much fun either!

[parisite]

I have an old Lyman data book for cast loads and for 240gr LSWC the max load for 2400 was 22.5gr compressed. But that was before lawyers started rattling everybody's cage.

[Mal Paso]

19g of 2400 is my target load behind a 250g Keith. 6" 629, 4" Redhawk, 4" Colt
21g of 2400 is the Most I will put in a late model 629 behind a 250g Keith and in a 4" gun with a proper fitting boolit should be over 1350 fps.
IMO 2400 has better timing in short and medium barrel revolvers than 296/110. Long revolvers and single shot seem to be 296 territory.
The reason 22g keeps coming up is that's where magic happens. I've had repeatable 6 shot SDs of less than 5 fps. Accuracy is Excellent but you don't want to shoot a whole box of them. And you want to be Very Sure of your platform. Elmer Keith blew up guns. IMO If the cartridges are sticking in the cylinder, the cylinder is probably expanding and introducing some metal fatigue, and you are over the limit. [smilie=b:
What I found is 14g of 2400 behind the 250 Keith, in the Magnum case is erratic, in the Special case it's a solid target load. Depending on batch it takes 16-18 grains minimum to get consistent ignition in the Magnum case. SDs keep dropping as the charge goes up and hits single digits where I stop.
Not an expert but I'm opening 8 pound keg number 6 today.:Fire:

[ShrinkMD]

It seems weird in my results that all of the Bullseye loads had such low SD. I wonder how Unique is? I was hoping to make up some practice loads at around 1000 fps for 240 gr bullets. The 2400 results were getting better as I got hotter with the load, but nowhere near my Bullseye results. Of course, these were only 20 shot groups, so statistically it may not hold up. I forget my stats.

[ShrinkMD]

I reshot some of these loads with different primers to check functioning and see what happened:

These were all in Starline 44 mag brass and 240 gr lwsc from Dardas

The 18 gr 2400 load with Wolf primers yielded 1058 and SD 31.3, and CCI primer got 1078 and SD 17.2 Some difference, eh?

Also, I shot some Unique loads with Federal Primers, also the 240 gr LSWC:

8.5gr Unique 991 and SD 15
10gr Unique 1092 and SD 9.1

So a 240gr bullet going around 1100 is overgrown special or light magnum?

Looks like time to buy some more Unique. It was cleaner than Bullseye, for what its worth. But I always clean anyways.

[429421Cowboy]

To clean the lead build up from the comp shoot full charges of slow pistol ball powder aka 296 & H110 , Lilgun or surplus ww 820 slow, with jacketed bullets. you will be amazed !

Not i good idea in my opinion, i love my revolver barrels too much to use them as swage dies. If you don't believe me then go to Buffalo Bore's website and look up an article titled "The problem with lead cowboy bullets" sorry i don't know how to post a link. I'd rather not bulge the barrel just because i'd rather not scrub my gun out. I must admit i have no experence with comps so it could be totally different, i just hope somebody wouldn't try this to clean out a barrel. JMHO

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
As usual I am the odd man out.
18grs. of 2400 or 11 grs. of unique & a 250gr. boolit were my old mild practice loads.
You have to do the "latter test of 6 rounds " at each powder load anyway to find what your gun likes. so just go ahead & load up 6rounds & do the experiment. In the process you will find the recoil level you can handle. and check for leading at end of each 6 shots, to find what the bullets can handle in vel.:Fire::Fire:

[NHlever]

Dave Scoville has found that 16.5 grains of 2400 behind most 240-250 grain cast bullets is a sweet spot in the 44 Mag, and also the .45 Colt. I've tried it, and have to agree.

[ColColt]

Up until a month or so ago I hadn't shot a 44 magnum in literally decades. I had at one time a Ruger and a 4 inch M29 then. I bought another M20-3 not long ago in pristine condition and decided to move up "softly" to get use to it again.

I started using 11 gr of HS-6 for a velocity well below magnum velocity(1000-1150 fps) and it gives great accuracy with no more kick than a good load for the 357. A 9 gr dose of Universal is another good load as is 10 gr of Unique and if I want more than this I go to 19 gr of 2400. I tried 20 gr but got a little sticky extraction so backed off. This is a great caliber and lots of fun trying different loads. I'm not a hunter but mostly just kill paper targets so, I don't care if the velocity is 900 or 1250 fps. If I hunted I'd probably try H110. These loads of course with the Lyman #429421-not the swagged boolits from Hornady or Speer.

Erik enlarged the bands on my 429421 mold recently and did a superb job. In fact, I just got it back today. This is one of Lyman's best and I wanted to keep it but needed a larger boolit. He's made that possible now so I'll be casting this weekend for sure.

[Little Big Oz]

NHlever,

What velocity are you getting with 16.5 gr 2400, and with what barrel length?