40-70 bn 2.1

[blwngazkit]

I'm looking at purchasing a used highwall chambered in this and I'm trying to find some load data for hand loads.

Any suggestions? I'd prefer to use smokeless.

[Red River Rick]

blwngazkit:

You should send one of our members a PM, regarding your question, RMulhern.
He's an expert here when it comes to "SMOKELESS"! I'm sure he'll help out..............one way or another!

RRR

[Larry Gibson]

Target loads, plinking loads or big game hunting loads?

What bullets/moulds are you interested in using?

There is lot of data available for smokeless 45-70 loads with cast bullets; Lyman, RCBS, etc. just depends on what you want them for if we want to sort it out to a manageable level here.

Larry Gibson

[blwngazkit]

Well, I just purchased the rifle and I don't have it in hand yet.

I'd be looking for all of those loads, plinking, target, and hunting (whitetail). Just to clarify, it's a 40-70bn using the 45-70 casing necked down.

[Larry Gibson]

40-70....my bad......but if it's a .408 - .411 barrel some 210 gr .41 mag SWCs over 6.5 - 8 gr Bullseye sure would make a dandy small game/plinking load. 21 gr 4759 under a 330 gr cast bullets is a recommended load. There are a couple good BP loads in Mike Venturino & Steve Garbe's SPG BP Reloading Primer.

If it's the 40-70 Government then the case is 2.1" and is a necked down 45-70. However, you refer to it as a "bn". The 40-70 Gvm't is a "bn" but the 40-70 Sharps Bottleneck is generally the one referred to as the 40-70 BN. If it's the sharps then you'll want to use 45-90 or .45 "Basic" case as the case length for that cartridge is 2.25". Just FYI, sounds like a neat rifle to have a whole lot of fun with.

Larry Gibson

[blwngazkit]

Thanks for the response Larry!

I'm not positive since I don't have it in hand yet, but the seller states it's a 40-70BN 2.1. From what I can tell it was a wildcat cartridge from the early 1980's developed by Shiloh and was since discontinued.

That information could be wrong as it's all from the internet. As I understand it, the 40-70BN and 40-70BN2.1 have the same throat length where the 40-70 govt has a different throat.

If you or anyone else has contradicting info please let me know!

[Don McDowell]

There was no 40-70 government.
There's a 40-70 sharps straight, and a couple of modern variations off of that that use 405 winchester brass.
There's a 40-70 and 40-72 winchester
There's a 40-70 2.1 that is nothing more than a 40-65 formed from 45-70 brass with no trimming to length.
There is a 40-70 bottleneck from the 1800's.
No matter which cartridge it is, you can't go wrong with enough 2 or 1f blackpowder in the case to make firm contact with a fully seated bullet.
For smokeless data for most of the old obscolete cartriges look in the obscolete section of the Cartridges of the World book.

So untill you get the rifle in hand and either do a chamber cast or if it comes with some fired cases and or loaded rounds, there's no telling what you bought.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Might want to check SPG's Loading book.

Dan Phariss designed a cartridge that he called the .40-70 Government. It also used the 45-70 2.10" case but had a longer neck with the bottleneck set correspondingly further back.

KW
The Lunger

[John Boy]

blwngazkit, since you are groping into the area of the unknown for the 40-70 necked, you best do this first before loading the rounds for the rifle:
* Slug the rifle to determine the groove diameter.
* Buy a copy of Cartridges of the World and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West, Venturino

COW: the Sharps 40-70 necked is really the 40-70 Remington
* 330 gr Lyman 403139 - 27gr IMR 4198 - 1450fps - 1542 Energy
(The 403139 bullet mold is out of production, so a 410 diameter bullet is your only choice)
Mike's Book, pages 116 - 119 discusses the caliber in full detail:
* All 70gr BP charges
* Various bullets in the 410 diameter. He tested his rifle with the Saeco 640 bullet (377gr), 1:20
* He stated based on his test target, it is a poor target caliber but OK for hunting
* Other bullets ... Lyman 410655, 410660, 410663 - plus other vendor molds

You can also look up charges on Load Data ... but are all BP Loads copied from Venturino's book and will cost you $30 to see the details ...
http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=2643&caliber=.40&caliberid=21&header=.40%20Caliber%20Reloading%20Data

here's another source ... http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

As you can see, reference books and your Internet browser are invaluable reference sources. Took me more time to type this post than to look up the information for you. ;)

And since the powder of choice is original gunpowder, you might want to do it the correct way and forget about nitro based reloads. The data is just not available. To develop other nitro reloads on your own, you must have a good working knowledge of the internal ballistics of the different smokeless powders

Also, you might want to forget about buying the 40-70 necked and go with a caliber where there is plenty of nitro and black powder reloading data and enjoy accurately shooting the caliber


From what I can tell it was a wildcat cartridge from the early 1980's developed by Shiloh PS, Typo error? Wrong! The caliber goes back to the 1800's and even wasn't a popular caliber then

Good Luck!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Johnboy,

Need to do some research, a 40-70 based on the 45-70 case with a longer Neck was made by Dan when he was at Shiloh in the 80's.


The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Point being that until the OP has the rifle in hand with either fired cases, loaded rounds or a chamber cast, there's no telling just what it is. Heck could even be the 40-70 peabody everlasting for all anybody knows .

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

My only point was that there is indeed a cartridge called the 40-70 Govt.

The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Kenny as I understand it , they found that in some of the notes from the Sharps company papers?
I still wouldn't rest easy until I had the thing in hand. There's no telling what someone with his Northern tool benchtop lathe and some cutting tools came up with. There's even a "wildcat" floating around the simply necks a 444 marlin or 45-70 case to .401, and uses 10mm or 38-40 bullets....
Lord only knows what some intrepid gunparts changer came up with and then his kids sold it at the estate sale...

Dang it, keep forgetting:roll:, if a person has a Speer #7 reloading manual on hand, Major George Nonte has a chapter in there about the formula for using 2400 or 4198 powders and coming up with usable loads for the "old timers".

[blwngazkit]

If I go through with the purchase, I'll do a chamber casting prior to anything else.

ETA:
From my reading, I've learned there are (3) .40-70 BN carrtidges.

.40 2 4/10 (40-70BN)
.40 2 1/10 (same powder chamber size as above but with a shorter neck)
.40 2 1/10 Govt (same neck size as 40-70BN but with a smaller powder capacity)

I'm trying to gain access to the Shiloh forums so I can ask some more detailed questions, but as far as I can tell the .40 2 1/10 was developed in the early 1980's by Shiloh primarily as a nitro cartridge designed to be formed from 45-70 brass and able to use 40-70BN dies.

Again, I haven't been able to find much specific about it.

I may end up purchasing the rifle and just having it re-barreled, I'd still come out several hundred under purchasing new from C.Sharps.

On the note of a re-barrel, does anyone have any opinions on have the barrel rebored to 45-70 from it's current .40 something?

[Gunlaker]

If I go through with the purchase, I'll do a chamber casting prior to anything else.

ETA:
From my reading, I've learned there are (3) .40-70 BN carrtidges.

.40 2 4/10 (40-70BN)
.40 2 1/10 (same powder chamber size as above but with a shorter neck)
.40 2 1/10 Govt (same neck size as 40-70BN but with a smaller powder capacity)

I'm trying to gain access to the Shiloh forums so I can ask some more detailed questions, but as far as I can tell the .40 2 1/10 was developed in the early 1980's by Shiloh primarily as a nitro cartridge designed to be formed from 45-70 brass and able to use 40-70BN dies.

Again, I haven't been able to find much specific about it.

I may end up purchasing the rifle and just having it re-barreled, I'd still come out several hundred under purchasing new from C.Sharps.

On the note of a re-barrel, does anyone have any opinions on have the barrel rebored to 45-70 from it's current .40 something?

Does it come with any fired brass? That wouild take some of the mystery out.

A pound of Cerrosafe and a hair dryer would allow you to do a chamber cast. Pretty cheap way to be sure.

If it were me, and I had that rifle, I'd consider rechambering for one of the .40-82's if you didn't want the .40-70 "Gov't" rather than reboring.

Chris.

[blwngazkit]

It does come with some fired brass, but I'll probably still do a chamber cast just to make certain.

I'm not opposed to rechambering, are there any good suggestions? I'd be looking for a cartridge with a fair amount of load data and preferably one with nitro load information available.

I'm told the chamber is currently .40 2 1/10 which would not be the 40-70govt but a proprietary round.

[Don McDowell]

If this rifle is a C Sharps built rifle in the 40 2.1 then all you need do is call them and get all the info you need.

[blwngazkit]

That's a good point, I don't know why I didn't think to ask them....