Traditionalists, avert your eyes, 1885 with scope!!

[rbertalotto]

I received my new Winchester 1885 BPCR last week. This rifle does not come with sights and until I decide what I will be using I wanted to do a bit of load development.

I machined a one piece scope base and mounted up the oldest scope I have in my inventory. Trying to keep it close to a theme of "This Old Gun". That is a B&L Balvar 6-24 from the 1970s.

I machined the mount out of strip of 3/8" dovetail mounting stock that you can get from Brownells. My favorite Millett Angle Lock rings were used.

So avert your eyes if you are a "traditionalist"

http://images32.fotki.com/v1045/photos/2/36012/9654765/DSC_2685-vi.jpg

http://images56.fotki.com/v127/photos/2/36012/9654765/DSC_2687-vi.jpg

http://images17.fotki.com/v10/photos/2/36012/9654765/DSC_2690-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v611/photos/2/36012/9654765/DSC_2689-vi.jpg

Many more pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rberta...inchester-1885-bpcr/ (http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/winchester-1885-bpcr/)

[Nrut]

Roy,
You are not alone in your wierdness..
A good friend of mine has scoped his 1885 50-90 BPCR..
He had it at the range this weekend shooting that stinking powder and my bench was down wind from him..:roll:

[RayinNH]

Actually it looks quite nice sitting there...Ray

[daddywpb]

Looks good. Beautiful rifle!

[dragonrider]

I like it Roy.

[redneckdan]

very nice

[troyboy]

Don't really matter what someone else thinks as long as you are happy. That being said...... I think it looks fine and it will be great for load development.

[nanuk]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

and it you send it to me, I'll beholding that for you, so I can eye it up real close like!

[littlejack]

Is there no company that makes a traditional looking scope with internal adjustment?
I would be in for one if there was.
Jack

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Great job on the scope mounting. I put a 3X Malcolm Leatherwood on mine.

BvT

[rbertalotto]

I wish they made the 18" Malcolm in something higher than 6X. I'd buy one in 16-24X.

Does anyone know if anyone "pushes" these scopes to a higher magnification?

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Littlejack,

you mean one like the old Lyman All-American Perma Centers?

18.5" long, tall turret knobs, 2 1/8ths inch front lens housing, 1 1/2" rear lens housing.

35X, very fine crosshairs and itty-bitty dot. I have one sitting here in front of me as I type.

It has looked soooooooooo fine, sitting on my Sharps, Stevens, HiWalls, Wickliffe (45-120)
and now the Steve Earle Wesson LR actioned rifle. Loadwork only, but awfully good for that.

I asked MVA if they could boost one of theirs, they said to get the glass maker to design and produce the first set of lenses would run about six-grand!

Rich

[Doc Highwall]

I mounted a old Redfield 3200-24X on my 1885 Traditional Hunter in 30-30 and 38-55 Win.

[Tracy]

When I think about the 1885, I remember one I passed up about 20 years ago. It had a long bull barrel in .225 Winchester, and a huge old Unertl scope sitting on it. It was $300. I kick myself for not buying it, everytime I think about it.

[45bpcr]

I made mounts for my 1885 Creedmoor for load developement. Files a couple of $8.00 weavers untill they fit.

[Doc Highwall]

TexasMax, has an article about a scope mount on his web site for the Browning BPCR. This is one of mine with a Redfield 3200 scope 24x.

[rbertalotto]

There is a Redfield 3200 on ebay right now..........$895!!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Redfield-3200-Target-Rifle-Scope-16-X-USA-W-Rings-/360360913783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e72f2b77

[Dale53]

When I was shooting BPCR Silhouette competition, I mounted a 20 power Lyman All American for load testing. Mine is a 40/65 and I got excellent results at 500 yards (ten shot groups just over 6" with black powder loads).

So, I find it perfectly understandable for load development. Good show and a VERY nice rifle. I consider the 1885's, as pictured, as good as it gets!

Dale53

[Four Fingers of Death]

There is a crowd around that produce a long original style scope to go on these style of rifles. They are a thing of beauty, but have a seriously high dollar look about them.

I have always fancied one of those Commemorative Rugers in 45/70 with the long scope. A few have come up over the years, but I have always had a cash flow problem when they were on sale.

[Johnw...ski]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/FekenHiWall008.jpg

I got the best of both worlds with mine. Good luck with yours.

John

[rbertalotto]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/FekenHiWall008.jpg

Damn! That tang sight looks real dangerous............Hope you got your shooting glasses on!.....

News Item: "Man admitted to hospital with tang sight up his nose..............." :-)

[Johnw...ski]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/JohnWski/FekenHiWall008.jpg

Damn! That tang sight looks real dangerous............Hope you got your shooting glasses on!.....

News Item: "Man admitted to hospital with tang sight up his nose..............." :-)

Hi Roy,

No, one screw and the sight comes off.

We are practically neighbors, do you shoot at Copacut?

John

[littlejack]

Hey John:
Is that a Unertl or Fecker scope? If'n it is, did you use the bases and mounts that came with it?
That looks very nice. That would be my idea of the perfect combination. The length looks
good, it looks almost era appropriate, and has the larger light gathering bell.
What power do you have?
Jack

[KCSO]

Many years ago when Hi Walls were cheap and no one wanted a single shot tons of varmit rifles were made and re made from the Hi Wall. They mostly all got a scope like a Unertl or a Lyman mounted on top. Therefore i don't really consider this either ugly or NON traditional. Looks like a retro 50's gun to me.

[Johnw...ski]

Hey John:
Is that a Unertl or Fecker scope? If'n it is, did you use the bases and mounts that came with it?
That looks very nice. That would be my idea of the perfect combination. The length looks
good, it looks almost era appropriate, and has the larger light gathering bell.
What power do you have?
Jack

It's a 20X Lyman Super Target Spot. The blocks came from Steve Earle, <steven.m.earle@comcast.net>, (781) 585-3929.

John

[rbertalotto]

Hi John!

Yes, I'm a member at Copicut and a range officer at Woodcock in Dartmouth.

I run the Egg Shoots at Woodcock and I'm trying to put together some kind of shoot for Traditional Single Shots, Lever Actions and Double Rifles.......Any ideas?

[littlejack]

Thanks John for the information. My Uberti could be a twin in looks to yours.
Jack

[Johnw...ski]

Hi John!

Yes, I'm a member at Copicut and a range officer at Woodcock in Dartmouth.

I run the Egg Shoots at Woodcock and I'm trying to put together some kind of shoot for Traditional Single Shots, Lever Actions and Double Rifles.......Any ideas?

I tried to get a 200 yd. 20 shot offhand match going at Tiverton Rod & Gun Club a while back. Sort of a schutzen style match with a 50/50 split for the winner of each line, but couldn't get much interest. Then again there wasn't much interest in any kind of shooting there except shotgun, thats why I moved on to another club.

I shoot in most of the high power matches at Copacut.

John

[littlejack]

Can anyone shed some light, pardon the pun, on the light transmitting capabilities of the target scopes in general, ie. Lyman, Redfield, Fecker and Unertl. Not necessarally in that order? It seems, as with all other scopes, that the lower the power and the larger to objective lens, the more light will be transmitted.
How about the 3/4" tubes and the smaller objective lenses? Is it difficult to get used to there smaller 3/4" tubes, with the lesser light tranmission?
I have not handled or seen these scopes. Would I be disappointed in their function?
All input appreciated.
Jack

[Johnw...ski]

Can anyone shed some light, pardon the pun, on the light transmitting capabilities of the target scopes in general, ie. Lyman, Redfield, Fecker and Unertl. Not necessarally in that order? It seems, as with all other scopes, that the lower the power and the larger to objective lens, the more light will be transmitted.
How about the 3/4" tubes and the smaller objective lenses? Is it difficult to get used to there smaller 3/4" tubes, with the lesser light tranmission?
I have not handled or seen these scopes. Would I be disappointed in their function?
All input appreciated.
Jack

I use mine only for target shooting and they work fine. My friends and I often have an informal match at 100, 200 and 300 yds. using standard NRA SR targets and the scope is very repeatable between ranges.

Be aware the scope will not make your rifle more accurate. The iron sights on my high wall are very high quality and probably cost more than the scope. The sights are front and rear apatures and groups from a bench rest will equal groups shot with the scope. There is nothing wrong with the scope that is just the way it is. On my NRA high power match rifle with comparable quality if not bettter iron sights I get the same results shooting groups against the same rifle but with a Bushnell 4200 24X scope. The shooter has to do his or her part by using good strong positions, trigger control, and most importantly focusing on the front sight or cross hair.

These target scopes with outside adjustment are really fine pieces of equipment. At one time I had several rifles set up with blocks and I would use the same scope on all of them. Like I mentioned earlier they are very repeatable, after attaching to a rifle I could just count the clicks up and to the right or left and my first shot would be right on target.

These scopes are almost an investment, they are repairable, and always increasing in price.

Good luck,

John

[littlejack]

John:
My main reason for wanting to scope my Hiwall, is that my eyes are failing to the extent that shjooting the iron is not practible for me anymore past 100 yards. The rifle and I did well at our last session. The first four shots went into 3/4", so I know the rifle is capable.
I would like to use the rifle for hunting this year. I believe that I can extend my range to the 200 yard mark easily with a scope.
I just don't know enough about this type of scope. I do like the athstetics of the scope and the way it looks on our rifles. I guess I better check around and get to peering through some of them and decide what I can hunt with.
Thanks again for your input.
Jack

[Johnw...ski]

John:
My main reason for wanting to scope my Hiwall, is that my eyes are failing to the extent that shjooting the iron is not practible for me anymore past 100 yards. The rifle and I did well at our last session. The first four shots went into 3/4", so I know the rifle is capable.
I would like to use the rifle for hunting this year. I believe that I can extend my range to the 200 yard mark easily with a scope.
I just don't know enough about this type of scope. I do like the athstetics of the scope and the way it looks on our rifles. I guess I better check around and get to peering through some of them and decide what I can hunt with.
Thanks again for your input.
Jack

It's not really a good scope for hunting, too much could happen to it.

John

[Echo]

Handsome Piece!

[Doc Highwall]

Just shedding a little light on scopes vs iron sights. With scopes there is an optical triangle defined by the laws of physics. Think of a triangle and at first point you have magnification, at the second point you have field of view, and at the third point you have eye relief. With the laws of physics if you change one of the points you have to change one or both of the other points. Example 1, if you change the magnification to a lower power and keep the eye relief the same the field of view will get larger. Example 2, keep the magnification the same and increase the eye relief like on a pistol scope and the field of view has to be smaller. Parallax is caused by the curvature of the lens and focal length adjustment and shows as movement of the cross-hairs on the object image. Remember when you were a kid and had a magnifying glass and use to go outside and focus the glass to burn things? Well that is the focal length of the lens and is usually expressed in millimeters or diopters and when the lens is at it's focal length objects are sharp and in focus. Most scopes that do not have parallax focus are set from the factory at 150 yards for the sharpest image with shotgun and some 22 scopes being focused at 75 yards. This means that an object at the focused distance is now focused exactly on the cross-hairs of the scope with zero parallax. Now when the object is closer or farther then the focused distance the object is no longer focused on the cross-hairs and the scope now has parallax and can be seen by looking through the scope and adds to eye fatigue especially with higher magnification. Scopes that have parallax adjustment or the ability to focus the object image exactly on the cross-hairs (Think like focusing binoculars) not only allow you to shoot the smallest groups but because the object image and the cross-hairs are on the same focal plane eye fatigue is greatly reduced. The eye piece is also a part of the optical system allowing your eye to be focused on the cross-hairs while being relaxed and cannot be over looked for importance. To check for parallax in a scope place the scope on something that does not shake or move and look at your target. Now with out touching the scope look through it and slowly move your eye left to right like you are saying no and see if the cross-hairs appear to move and also move your eye up and down like you are saying yes and see if the cross-hairs move. If the cross-hairs appear to move on the target you have parallax and have to adjust it till the cross-hairs do not move and appear to be part of the target. The reason you check parallax by moving your eye both up/down and left/right is you can have some residual parallax in either up/down or left/right because you have used most of your windage or elevation adjustment in an internal adjustment scope. With an external adjustable scope like a Lyman Super Target Spot the lens's are always on their optical center and only parallax is adjusted with windage and elevation being done with the mounts. When the eye piece is not adjusted for your eye exactly on the cross-hairs you will get eye fatigue because your eye is now trying to focus two different object planes switching between cross-hairs and target. All things have to work together to get the most out of an optical system. Things that you don't think of when it comes to scopes. Eye relief on most variable power scopes changes with power, remember the optical triangle. When you turn the power up on your scope the eye relief gets shorter so the field of view does not get get too small. You got higher magnification and a shorter eye relief so field of view would not be totally sacrificed and become too small. Some expensive variable power scopes have an constant eye relief and all fixed power scopes have a constant eye relief. With internal adjustable scopes the pros are the windage and elevation adjustment are protected from the elements being on the inside and the eye piece stays in an constant place in-relation to the gun and are less bulky. Cons, the lenses are not on their optical axis when using windage and elevation adjustment too their extent like long range or high wind so the optical image will degrade. Windage and elevation adjustment are only positive down and to the left because of compressing the internal spring. External adjustable scopes pros, the lenses are always on their optical center giving the sharpest image and the windage and elevation are positive being able to check while shooting. Cons, the windage and elevation adjustment have no protection from the elements and can be damaged, and the eye piece moves up/down and left/right like an iron sight affecting stock/cheek weld on the stock needing an adjustable cheek piece or a cheek pad when shooting long distances along with being heavier and bulkier then an internal adjustable scope. Scopes also magnify your movement times the magnification causing over correction. Iron sights pros, they are light and have no problems with parallax. Cons people have a tendency to use apertures that are too small and and assume the click adjustments are a given value not realising the distance between sights is important to how much the click value really is. Head position is very critical with both scope and irons but more critical with irons. I have shot both scope and iron sights for years and on a round target like the ones used in high-power and small-bore shooting there is almost no difference in score, maybe a point or two and maybe a couple of X's. I have iron sights that cost well over a thousand dollars and have built in diopters and colored filters and I have a small book with settings for both distance and aperture settings for various light conditions to do my best.

[BruceB]

Just shedding a little light on scopes vs iron sights. With scopes there is an optical triangle defined by the laws of physics. Think of a triangle and at first point you have magnification, at the second point you have field of view, and at the third point you have eye relief. With the laws of physics if you change one of the points you have to change one or both of the other points.

Example 1, if you change the magnification to a lower power and keep the eye relief the same the field of view will get larger.

Example 2, keep the magnification the same and increase the eye relief like on a pistol scope and the field of view has to be smaller. Parallax is caused by the curvature of the lens and focal length adjustment and shows as movement of the cross-hairs on the object image.

Remember when you were a kid and had a magnifying glass and use to go outside and focus the glass to burn things? Well that is the focal length of the lens and is usually expressed in millimeters or diopters and when the lens is at it's focal length objects are sharp and in focus.

Most scopes that do not have parallax focus are set from the factory at 150 yards for the sharpest image with shotgun and some 22 scopes being focused at 75 yards. This means that an object at the focused distance is now focused exactly on the cross-hairs of the scope with zero parallax. Now when the object is closer or farther then the focused distance the object is no longer focused on the cross-hairs and the scope now has parallax and can be seen by looking through the scope and adds to eye fatigue especially with higher magnification.

Scopes that have parallax adjustment or the ability to focus the object image exactly on the cross-hairs (Think like focusing binoculars) not only allow you to shoot the smallest groups but because the object image and the cross-hairs are on the same focal plane eye fatigue is greatly reduced.

The eye piece is also a part of the optical system allowing your eye to be focused on the cross-hairs while being relaxed and cannot be over looked for importance. To check for parallax in a scope place the scope on something that does not shake or move and look at your target. Now with out touching the scope look through it and slowly move your eye left to right like you are saying no and see if the cross-hairs appear to move and also move your eye up and down like you are saying yes and see if the cross-hairs move.

If the cross-hairs appear to move on the target you have parallax and have to adjust it till the cross-hairs do not move and appear to be part of the target. The reason you check parallax by moving your eye both up/down and left/right is you can have some residual parallax in either up/down or left/right because you have used most of your windage or elevation adjustment in an internal adjustment scope.

With an external adjustable scope like a Lyman Super Target Spot the lens's are always on their optical center and only parallax is adjusted with windage and elevation being done with the mounts. When the eye piece is not adjusted for your eye exactly on the cross-hairs you will get eye fatigue because your eye is now trying to focus two different object planes switching between cross-hairs and target.

All things have to work together to get the most out of an optical system. Things that you don't think of when it comes to scopes. Eye relief on most variable power scopes changes with power, remember the optical triangle. When you turn the power up on your scope the eye relief gets shorter so the field of view does not get get too small.

You got higher magnification and a shorter eye relief so field of view would not be totally sacrificed and become too small. Some expensive variable power scopes have an constant eye relief and all fixed power scopes have a constant eye relief. With internal adjustable scopes the pros are the windage and elevation adjustment are protected from the elements being on the inside and the eye piece stays in an constant place in-relation to the gun and are less bulky.

Cons, the lenses are not on their optical axis when using windage and elevation adjustment too their extent like long range or high wind so the optical image will degrade. Windage and elevation adjustment are only positive down and to the left because of compressing the internal spring. External adjustable scopes pros, the lenses are always on their optical center giving the sharpest image and the windage and elevation are positive being able to check while shooting.

Cons, the windage and elevation adjustment have no protection from the elements and can be damaged, and the eye piece moves up/down and left/right like an iron sight affecting stock/cheek weld on the stock needing an adjustable cheek piece or a cheek pad when shooting long distances along with being heavier and bulkier then an internal adjustable scope.
Scopes also magnify your movement times the magnification causing over correction.

Iron sights pros, they are light and have no problems with parallax. Cons people have a tendency to use apertures that are too small and and assume the click adjustments are a given value not realising the distance between sights is important to how much the click value really is. Head position is very critical with both scope and irons but more critical with irons.

I have shot both scope and iron sights for years and on a round target like the ones used in high-power and small-bore shooting there is almost no difference in score, maybe a point or two and maybe a couple of X's. I have iron sights that cost well over a thousand dollars and have built in diopters and colored filters and I have a small book with settings for both distance and aperture settings for various light conditions to do my best.



Paragraphs are our friends. It is almost impossible for me to read a solid block of type as in the original layout of this post. In fact, I usually pass over such dense constructions,not even trying to understand what is being said. This one was worth the effort.

[Doc Highwall]

Thanks BruceB.

[part_timer]

Doc thanks for the info, Bruce thanks for the paragraphs!!!

[rbertalotto]

Doc, excellent post..........I'd like permission to post it on my web site with proper credit to the author.....Let me know......Thanks

[Longwood]

I put one of the full length Wm Malcolm scopes on my new Hiwall but if I had one of the Lyman scopes, it would be on it instead.
I had one on a bull barrel Sako about 40 years ago and I loved it then and I still like how well they work and still like the looks of them.

[Doc Highwall]

rbertalotto, go ahead and post it, BruceB did a great job of breaking it down into paragraphs so it is easier to under stand and I would use his proper rewrite of it. Thank You again BruceB.

[bigted]

a very informative piece...thanks everybody for their points here. im leaning further and further towards a 2" unertil scope. they have the look and from what i gather here ... they have the function as well. thanks all.
Ted

[LUCKYDAWG13]

That looks sweet just the way it is

[rbertalotto]

I was bidding on a Redfield 3200 scope on Ebay. But I was away from the computer when the auction ended and it went for $400!!!!

Did someone on this forum buy it?