.303 savage improved??

[dnepr]

I picked up a .303 savage about a month ago ,I was playing around with reforming some .220 swift brass , not haveing.303 savage dies yet I was playing around with what I have at the reloading bench , I found my 7.62x39 dies worked for pushing the shoulder back . Figuring the should angle wouldn't be the same I wanted to push it back just far enough to chamber and then fireform. I noticed that the shoulder was farther ahead on the reformed brass than an old original .303 savage cartridge I had . this made me curios so I played around a bit . A 30-30 wont quite chamber but close , the reformed case has its shoulder very close to the same spot as a 30-30 , the best I can measure with calipers the start of the neck is 1.525 , this reformed case chambers easily. The .303 spec from the reloading manual says 1.477 , 30-30 lists at 1.562 .

So my question is were these chambers this loose , or did someone " clean up" this chamber with a 30-30 reamer , or is there something else going on here that I am missing:confused:

[nanuk]

just to clarify, when you say "I noticed that the shoulder was farther ahead on the reformed brass than an old original .303 savage cartridge I had" is that AFTER fireforming? or after pushing the shoulder back just enough to chamber?

[Bret4207]

Is this a take down or solid frame?

[gnoahhh]

Shouldn't matter if it's a solid frame or a takedown.

The only sure-fire way to tell what you have there is to compare a fireformed case with an original .303 case, or at least the dimensions for same.

Why are you fooling with .220 Swift brass? While it can be done, and much has been written about it, it's a PIA (which I think you discovered), gives a case that'll "work" but isn't quite right, and only came about a few years ago when .303 brass was totally unobtainable. The brass situation has dramatically improved, with PRVI brass available from several vendors, as well as Norma if you're feeling rich. I would ditch that approach and get some PRVI brass from Graf's, and scare up a set of dies, new or used, and do it properly.

[Ed in North Texas]

As far as brass goes, there is always the possibility of once fired being found. Years ago I walked into a gunshop in rural Arkansas and found 6 boxes of once fired 7.65x53mm Norma cases for $5.00 per box. Snatched every one of them up. Norma was the only "game in town" for those cases back then. Keep your eyes open and you never know what you might find in the most unlikely places.

[scrapcan]

I think Bret is alluding to the headspace issues that can result on takedown guns. It does matter if the rifle at hand is solid frame or takedown. It may be easier to measure and/or deal with headspace issues on a takedown gun.

One should also pull the rifle down and look at the lever and bolt to make sure peening has not created an excessive headspace issue. If you don't know what to look for, do a search on buying a used savage lever action rifle, I think there is a good article on savage99.com

But it is always possible that the chamber was cleaned up, afterall how old is this particular rifle? How tough has it been to get brass for it over that lifespan?

[dnepr]

the shoulder is farther ahead pre-fireforming , so the shoulder may end up a little farther forward yet.
This is a solid frame rifle.
The reasons for messing with .220 swift brass are
1. I live on the wrong side of the 49th parrallel to easily order brass
2. it is a headstamp that shouldn't cause confusion as I don't have a .220 swift , brass can be made for 30-30 or .303 british but I own rifles in these calibers and I think a .303 savage that ends up in a .303 british chamber could be more exciting than I am willing to try .
3. I happen to have 100 220 swift brass .
If this rifle has headspace issue's I will be neck sizing the brass only allowing the shoulder to control the headspace instead of the rim , bad headspace and .303 british go together like peanut butter and jam ( or jelly if you prefer), and that fix works well there ,
This particular rifle dates 1904 or 1905 so yup it has been around for a while and .303 savage ammo has been hard to get for some time in Canada from my understanding,
aren't old guns fun;)

[Bret4207]

Solid frame eh? Huh. Well, there goes that theory. I suppose it's possible someone got in there with a reamer of some sort and tried to make it a 30-30 or something. Fore form a few and see what you have and go from there.

[gnoahhh]

I have a few collector buddies scattered from one end of Canada to another and none of them report a scarcity of .303 brass, although the one guy regularly imports loaded .303 Savage ammo in from some place in Wisconsin. He claims the process isn't as bad as most people think, just takes a while.

Another reason to not mess with .220 cases is that the semi-rimmed design doesn't offer much meat for the extractor to grab on to. A couple of guys reported that their rifles wouldn't extract if the cases got stuck even a little tighter than normal. Just saying. If that's all I had to fire a Savage .303 with, I would be doing it also.

I still say any speculation regarding what this gentleman is dealing with is just that: speculation. Until he ponies up a pic/accurate dimensions of a fired case, or better yet does a chamber cast, we don't know any more than he does.

[sav300]

Had 303 savage in a saddle ring carbine 99 and loaded up a cast load and fired it at the range.Guess what the result was? A straight case with a slight shoulder,was re chambered to 303 British. Bugger,Now has a near new match barrel and chamber cut in 303 savage and bloody heavy. But it shoots.

[gnoahhh]

.303 British?!! I'll bet it was a single shot rifle with that cartridge!

[scrapcan]

gnoahhh,

I agree on pictures or the measurements. It would also help to know the condition of the rifles internals. I had an early 300 savage a friend brought over to strip and clean that had right at .25 inch of wear. Needless to say it is a very nice wall hanger in my opinion.

Not saying this is the case in this instance, but one should look to be sure.

[dnepr]

I will work on a chamber cast and some pics but I won't promise when , I am working 50-60 hours a week right now so time is a little tight

[dnepr]

I did a chamber cast tonight , on first glance it looks like the chamber is a little generous but I think I have some headspace issues to look at . if i did this right there should be a picture
32758
from left to right factory .303 savage, chamber cast , 30-30 brass

[gnoahhh]

Pretty hard to tell from the pic, but the chamber cast looks the same as the factory .303, or is it my eyes? Doesn't seem to match the .30/30. What does the micrometer say?

How does it shoot? Does the brass require much resizing after firing? If all it takes is a neck sizing to produce functional ammo I wouldn't worry too much about the exact chamber dimensions and focus on other more important things like bullet fit and load development.

[Pepe Ray]

This may or may not be relevant to your situation.
Many years ago I read an article (maybe Field & Stream?), about an old time black Bear hunter who roamed the Appalachians for weeks at a time. Picking up supplies in various towns as he struck them. His rifle of choice was a M99 Sav in ,303 Sav. At some point he discovered that many country stores didn't stock .303 Sav ammo so he had the chamber reamed with a .30 WCF reamer as 30-30 was universally stocked. Of course he was NOT a reloader and cared not what the empty brass looked like.
I found it an admirable sample of Yankee Ingenuity.
FYI, Pepe Ray

[ipopum]

The 3o3 Savage is larger at the base than the 30-30 Win. One Way to get 303 Sav. brass is to start with 30-40 brass. Turn the rim down and other changes and you can wind up with 303 Sav. brass. Is it worth the effort, only you can say. Since the barrel was bad on my 303 I decided to re barrel. I went with 30-30 Win because of the brass issues.