strang boollits

[jetsfan-24]

hey picked up some range bullits and i had some fmj that i had to hit with a hammer to split them a few of them blew apart they were copper colored in side but it would mash up like sand any body know what they r ?

[fryboy]

sintered bullets otherwise known as frangibles , usually made of sintered iron compressed into shape with a copper jacket ( often barely a copper wash but ...)

[*Paladin*]

I agree, they are frangible. The frang we use in the military are comprised of compressed copper and zinc, IIRC. I'll have to look them up the MSDS when I go to work tomorrow.

[Frosty Boolit]

Maybe you could go over the scrap with a magnet first next time. Then put all the mil surp rifle bullets back in.

[Centaur 1]

I find a lot of those in .40 caliber. I saved a handfull so that one day I could try and make a bushing from one. They're probably not as strong but they remind me of oilite bronze.

[Longwood]

I agree, they are frangible. The frang we use in the military are comprised of compressed copper and zinc, IIRC. I'll have to look them up the MSDS when I go to work tomorrow.
Are they meant to sort of explode inside of a body and cause unrepairable wounds or something else?

[Doby45]

They are made to not "over penetrate". CQB type work and other such stuff that requires a bullet to expend all of it's energy in one quick motion.

[bumpo628]

If you recovered them whole from a dirt berm...it looks like they don't work as intended.

[*Paladin*]

Are they meant to sort of explode inside of a body and cause unrepairable wounds or something else?

The frangible we use is, unfortunately, not for as cool a reason as CQB, altho it does have that purpose as well. The reason we use it is because it's "lead free". The gov't is cramming this "green"-ammo down our throats for use in training. The stuff sucks too, because the bullet is lighter than the Nato-ball bullet (124gr bullet v. 90 gr frang bullet in 9mm), the powder charge is hotter to permit proper functioning. So, because of the increased chamber pressure, we see more cracked locking blocks, frames and barrels. Frangible sucks...

[Longwood]

The frangible we use is, unfortunately, not for as cool a reason as CQB, altho it does have that purpose as well. The reason we use it is because it's "lead free". The gov't is cramming this "green"-ammo down our throats for use in training. The stuff sucks too, because the bullet is lighter than the Nato-ball bullet (124gr bullet v. 90 gr frang bullet in 9mm), the powder charge is hotter to permit proper functioning. So, because of the increased chamber pressure, we see more cracked locking blocks, frames and barrels. Frangible sucks...
I suspect if the military likes it, it may be because it causes injuries that can not be repaired easily.
The military could care less about how bad they pollute the earth.
I live very close to the 29 Palms Marine training center and during the Kuwait war, it was nearly vacant so a group of us drove sand rails out onto it. I looks like a giant junk yard that has thousands of tons of junk and trash everywhere you look, and much of it appears to have been there since the 40's and 50's. A lot of it can be seen on Google Earth.
I live close to a couple of the big circle aerial targets the military trained at during WW2 and there are pieces of practice bombs, 50 cal clips and mortar round fragment, all over the place and a couple of them are located near private property and homes. I know where there is a huge bomb sticking into the ground that has been there at least 40 years. It sticks up out of the ground about 7 ft.
South West of Amboy CA is one of their big gun and bomb ranges where craters are so thick they overlap and I guarantee the area is covered with fragments and other trash.
Go here on Google Earth to view one of the WW2 targets and scan around China Lake to see some of the garbage the Airforce and Navy have scattered all over the place.
34 13 46.73N 116 20 03.13W

[Love Life]

Oh lord Longwood. You mentioned China Lake. Now the Gub'ment is gonna get you!!!!! In all reality the government does not use frangibles on the wide scale yet. It has nothing to do with being green or any noise like that . It has to do with us being limited in our ammo choices. No lead, hollowpoints, frangibles that could cause undo suffering. This is no joke. Why do you think we have stuck to FMJ all these years (besides great light vehicle penetration) even though better manstopping rounds are out there? Us being limited by public opinion and and sympathy started long ago.

Anywho back on topic. I see those rounds quite a bit in indoor ranges as well. Supposed to be lead free (more lead exposure from primers), and break upon impact with steel.

[*Paladin*]

I suspect if the military likes it, it may be because it causes injuries that can not be repaired easily.
The military could care less about how bad they pollute the earth.
I live very close to the 29 Palms Marine training center and during the Kuwait war, it was nearly vacant so a group of us drove sand rails out onto it. I looks like a giant junk yard that has thousands of tons of junk and trash everywhere you look, and much of it appears to have been there since the 40's and 50's. A lot of it can be seen on Google Earth.
I live close to a couple of the big circle aerial targets the military trained at during WW2 and there are pieces of practice bombs, 50 cal clips and mortar round fragment, all over the place and a couple of them are located near private property and homes. I know where there is a huge bomb sticking into the ground that has been there at least 40 years. It sticks up out of the ground about 7 ft.
South West of Amboy CA is one of their big gun and bomb ranges where craters are so thick they overlap and I guarantee the area is covered with fragments and other trash.
Go here on Google Earth to view one of the WW2 targets and scan around China Lake to see some of the garbage the Airforce and Navy have scattered all over the place.
34 13 46.73N 116 20 03.13W

Absolutely not true. We do not use frangible for overseas operations due to restrictions by the Geneva Convention on ammunition. All military ammunition used in combat operations overseas must be fully metal jacketed.

I will say that US bombing ranges are littered with ordnance fragmentation/trash from 70+ years of use, but thats what they are there for. We have to train somewhere, lest we lose our proficiency. If you know where live ordnance is located, you need to inform your local law enforcement, who will in turn notify the range-owner. Each branch has EOD personnel and take very seriously unexploded ordnance.

As far as the military not "caring" about polluting the environment, I'm sorry you feel that way. The US gov't has come a long way in keeping the environment clean over the years, to the point where now our training exercises are scrutinized by state, federal and branch environmental observers. In many places we aren't even able to so much as clean our weapons in the field, because a patch soiled with lead and CLP might get lost and pollute the environment.

[*Paladin*]

Oh lord Longwood. You mentioned China Lake. Now the Gub'ment is gonna get you!!!!! In all reality the government does not use frangibles on the wide scale yet. It has nothing to do with being green or any noise like that . It has to do with us being limited in our ammo choices. No lead, hollowpoints, frangibles that could cause undo suffering. This is no joke. Why do you think we have stuck to FMJ all these years (besides great light vehicle penetration) even though better manstopping rounds are out there? Us being limited by public opinion and and sympathy started long ago.

Anywho back on topic. I see those rounds quite a bit in indoor ranges as well. Supposed to be lead free (more lead exposure from primers), and break upon impact with steel.

Almost every 9mm round and probably half the 5.56mm the USAF shoots for training is frangible. It is similar in the Navy. The Army and Marines have more real-estate for ranges, so they still use ball for most ranges. I would say that the use of frangible is pretty wide spread at this point.

And yes, unfortunately, it has everything to do with being green. Frangible is more expensive than ball ammunition. It's harder on weapons due to increased chamber pressures. We don't shoot the **** for punching holes in paper because it's cool. We would much rather use ball. Ball is simply copper jacketed lead projectiles. Even M855 (5.56 w/ steel penetrator) has lead in it. 7.62 ball is just a 147 gr copper jacketed lead bullet. We have no issue with using FMJ "ball" rounds for anti-personnel purposes, and neither does the Geneva Convention. Geneva Convention simply requires that projectiles are not designed to inflict more significant damage. So, we use FMJ, so there is no expansion. We kill our enemies in a kinder-gentler fasion. So, our use of hollow-point, for example, is restricted to state-side law-enforcement. Very little of our ammuntion is steel core, with the exception of AP (armor piercing). I'd welcome any of you to come out and tour my range (I'm the rangemaster). We are subjected to so much environmental BS that it's a real pain in the *** to run a military range these days.

[Doby45]

*Paladin* I need some 30-06 brass, hook a brutha up. ;)

[firefly1957]

I believe it was not the military that wanted to or initiated "green Bullets" but congress who found a better way to waste the military budget! because they could not cut it anymore. I am sure the American Rifleman had a article some years ago about it.

[Love Life]

Hague Convention of 1899

[*Paladin*]

*Paladin* I need some 30-06 brass, hook a brutha up. ;)

Hahaha!!! Unfortunately, we don't use anything in .30-06 anymore. The M14's are about the oldest things we have left in the AF inventory, aside from the M2's.

[*Paladin*]

I believe it was not the military that wanted to or initiated "green Bullets" but congress who found a better way to waste the military budget! because they could not cut it anymore. I am sure the American Rifleman had a article some years ago about it.

Yeah, I've been a Combat Arms instructor for more years than I care to remember, and I have never run across anyone, to include at higher headquarters that WANTED frangible. Most ranges avoid it like the plague. For a while after 9/11, ball ammo was in short supply (it was all being diverted to the desert) and all of the sudden we started getting the frangible.

Fortunately, my range is still using 5.56 and 7.62 ball for M4/M16/M249/M240/M24, but every round of 9mm we shoot for training is frangible junk. The bullet weighs 90 gr (because it is lead-free), and so to get the Beretta to function properly, the frangible is hot stuff. We see a lot more cracked locking blocks and barrels due to frangible than we did back in the days of using M882 (9mm Ball). Not a frangible fan...

[Love Life]

They have combat arms instruction in the Air Force?:kidding: I couldn't help myself on that one. My brother as been in the Air Force for going on 10 years now and is currently stationed in Kansas.

We still use good old ball ammunition in the USMC. I would love to mine those ranges.

[*Paladin*]

They have combat arms instruction in the Air Force?:kidding: I couldn't help myself on that one. My brother as been in the Air Force for going on 10 years now and is currently stationed in Kansas.

We still use good old ball ammunition in the USMC. I would love to mine those ranges.

Hahahaha!! Yeah, yeah... Believe it or not, there are a few of us ground-pounders in the AF. At least your brother turned out all right! [smilie=1:

Seriously tho, I come from a long line of Marines. I was born on Camp Lejeune. Somebody had to break the cycle...

[Love Life]

My dad was Army, my brother went Air Force, and I went Marines. Now all little sister has to do is go in the Navy

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=Love Life;1248132]Oh lord Longwood. You mentioned China Lake. Now the Gub'ment is gonna get you!!!

I believe you are thinking of Groom lake. Area 51. The place that they used to try to deny existed. Google Earth played hell with that nonsense.
I see that the gigantic new city the Marines built to play at, that I can plainly see from my house, suddenly disappeared from GE. Use the history thingie on GE and you can see it in it's earlier stages. Anyone who wants to see it or take photo's, spy's and such, can fly within a few miles of it and see/photo all of it so I wonder why they had GE delete it?