New to Paper patching

[5.7 MAN]

I am soon to be the owner of a 50-90 Sharps made by Pedersoli, Long ago I read about paper patching bullets. I am wondering if anyone here could give me some pointers or at least tell me I am on the right Track.

The Pedersoli from what I have read has a Pretty fast twist so a Heavier bullet Will be in order, I am thinking 550 grns or so.

If I am right the loading goes like this:

powder
over powder Wad with compression. How do I know how much compression?
Grease cookie
Wad
Bullet

What about the wad, both the same? or should I use different Materials?
Pure lead or an alloy, I prefer almost pure lead as I have about 200lbs of it.

Thanks, Dan

[Red River Rick]

Depending on the nose profile of your bullet, you may want to stay away from pure Pb. A 20:1 or 30:1 mix would be more suited. A 550 grain bullet seems a bit light for a 50-90, something heavier may be in order..................650 grs - 700 grs?

RRR

[Don McDowell]

Leadpot and Mulhern are the ones to talk with about the big 50.
The original's used the 473 gr bullet but I think the twist in your rifle is to fast for that, your 550 gr idea probably about as light as you can go, 600 probably better.
If using an original sharps/remington nose profile, pure lead probably be alright, but 20-1 a bit better.
Lots of different ways to get around the barn, but basic's are something like this.

The patched bullet only needs seated in the case about 1/8 inch or so.
So you need to figure the wad columns and powder charges from there.
I like to use a .060 fiber wad , a 1/8 inch lubed felt wad, and a .030 fiber wad under the bullet.
How much compression on the powder depends mostly on the powder etc, so that you'll need to play with until you and your rifle reach an understanding.

[Lead pot]

For a 1/18 twist like mine is a 600 grain with a creedmoor bullet profile 600 grains is about as light I want to go and that is borderline as far as accuracy I personally want.
I use a 720 grain bullet with the creedmoor type nose cast with 1/40. L/T That bullet is 1.495" long.

[montana_charlie]

According to the Pedersoli website, the twist in their 50/90 barrels is 1 in 26 inches. Therefore, a 'light' bullet may be just fine.
CM

[Red River Rick]

Mulhern's .50 (The Bastard), has a much faster twist, 1 - 22"? Hence the heavyweight bullets.

RRR

[5.7 MAN]

Thanks for the Insight. I'll start out with the 550 or so grain and work my way up. I think I'll order PP bullets from Buffalo arms or Montana bullet works before I buy a mould.

Dan

[Lead pot]

You would be wiser to wait for the rifle, measure the twist then order the bullets.
If the bore is a 18 twist those 550 grain bullets will be a disapointment and the money spent for the bullets and shipping charges will be a wast of money you could have put on a good quality mould.

[RMulhern]

Thanks for the Insight. I'll start out with the 550 or so grain and work my way up. I think I'll order PP bullets from Buffalo arms or Montana bullet works before I buy a mould.

Dan

5.7 MAN

U need to listen to Leadpot! He's already forgotten (along with a few others) more about shooting the .50 than most folks ever learn!

My .50 ROT is 1-22"!:drinks::coffeecom

[Don McDowell]

Leadpot speaks much wisdom here. For the cost of a couple of boxes of precast bullets, you're well on your way to a nose pour adjustable mould from any of the "custom" mould makers that do such a thing. Then you can tinker with the length/weight of the bullet that suits both you and your rifle.

[5.7 MAN]

You guys are right about the Mould, I'll wait. I've got a Lyman 450 Grn 50-70 Mould that my friend loaned me I'll make a few up and try em out. I am pretty familiar with Lyman, RCBS and Lee, where would be a good place to start looking for this adjustable mould?

Thanks!

[Don McDowell]

Check with Old West Bullet Moulds and see if he's got a 50 available. I've got a couple in other calibers that cast a good bullet.

[RMulhern]

You guys are right about the Mould, I'll wait. I've got a Lyman 450 Grn 50-70 Mould that my friend loaned me I'll make a few up and try em out. I am pretty familiar with Lyman, RCBS and Lee, where would be a good place to start looking for this adjustable mould?

Thanks!

5.7 Man

Right here:

http://kal.castpics.net/default.htm

[Kenny Wasserburger]

:dung_hits_fan::kidding:The Sharps Catalog stated that the 45's did better work at 1000 yards then the 50's did at 600?

Of course now a days we use very fast twist 50's and Very heavy bullets.

The Lunger

[Lead pot]

For a 1/18 twist like mine is a 600 grain with a creed moor bullet profile 600 grains is about as light I want to go and that is borderline as far as accuracy I personally want.
I use a 720 grain bullet with the creed moor type nose cast with 1/40. L/T That bullet is 1.495" long.

:confused: Retraction:-? My 71 year old computer bank is starting to get glitches in it:-? My .50 has a 1/22 ROT.

Kenny there are usually a lot of .45 calibers under my name on the score board :drinks:

Back then the ROT was 1/30+ so they used those small bullets that almost look like round balls:Fire::)

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

Very true a lot of them 45's below your name, Then again there are aways quite a few above it too, at least at every match I have attended.

What I was getting at that you have to shoot a very very heavy slug nothing like what was used in the past, and you also get a lot more recoil then even a 45-110 shooter has to contend with.

The Lunger

[Lead pot]

Well not to many only 13 I think at the 09 Q out of 600 or so, last year I uses the 44
but that is shooting ok too.

Your right the recoil is an issue with the 50 but you learn to roll with it and it's not a problem. Fore me anyway.

A particular rifle or caliber is only as good as the guy using it. If you cant handle the recoil one can never get good with the rifle, not mentioning the eye sight but a scope will help with that.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt I remember you mentioning last fall you had forgot how bad that damm thing kicked after your first couple of shots, that was all I needed to see.:violin:


The one other issue I never see folks discuss is the amount of torque one of these fast twist 50's with the 700 plus grain slugs imparts to the rifle.

Even in the big 45's I and a few others have discussed this at varrious matches as it being an issue. I know Jimbo and I have beat it to death, and its one of the reasons he only uses the 45-100 now in a ballard, in Mid-Range matches, his has a 1-17 twist barrel and shoots quite well.

It is kinda like Canting, few folks talk about it, some claim it has no effect yet I have twisted a rifle on the bench at 200 yards and can make a 6 inch wide group just by canting it a few degs left of center then a few right of center. I mean like only a quarter of a bubble.

If one cants the rifle the same each shot then you will compensate for it in your windage Zero's. Then and only then is it not an issue!

Talk about something throwing a wrench into a No wind Zero though!:dung_hits_fan: Precession and No wind Zeros are real things, one finds out real fast at a match where you have a complete wind change and need to go back to a Known Zero and then put in windage for the new Direction. Throw in someone unknowning canting the rifle!!! :confused: Thats what messes up most shoters in my opinion.:(

Off to the Diary got to put some notes in on my new 38-50 Elipitical Mould that I got tonight from BACO it is a 360 #1 Elipitical, throws a 355.3 to 355.5 gr bullet with boring regularity and casts like a dream.

The Lunger

[EDK]

Get a copy of LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE by Randolph Wright for starters. Mike Venturino has a chapter of shooting paper patch in SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST that might help with alloy selection. Some shooters use a wax paper wad on either side of the grease cookie.

I'm nowhere close to Lead Pot, Pwderburnerr and Kenny as a shooter, but NOBODY has a better time at the Q than I do. I'll burn up a couple hundred rounds in my 50/90 SHILOH LRX, visit with everybody, and have the best week of the year.

PS at 11 or 12 boolits to the pound, your 200 pounds can go d*** quick!

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Lead pot]

Yes I remember saying that Kenny and I meant it:) I have put a lot of work in with the .44-90 for some time shooting the 500 grain bullet with just 100 grains of 2F and then picking up the .50 to get a sight setting just in case I might have to go to it for the shoot sort of wakes you up:Fire: when you pull the trigger.:)
Just these last few weeks working with the new to me KIK powder since Hodgden did away with my powder I use in my rifles I shot several hundred rounds through the .44 and .50 and got used to the push of the .50 again.
Your right about the torque of the big 50 with the 720 grain bullet I talked about it quite often. With the left hand twist and your hand is dry and you forget your P's and Q's and hold a loose grip the comb of the stock will wake you up in a hurry when it belts you in the jaw.
You might see me spit in my hands now and then if I use the blow tube or roll a damp patch in my hands, well that's the reason.

I have said many times that the 1/22 twist .50-90 is not for the timid and at my age I'm starting to look for something milder to shoot.

Just might get a 2-7/8 (110):drinks:

[Lead pot]

EDK.

A couple hundred rounds through the 50 at the Q is just for the first two days out of the week I spend there getting the taste of the winds. In 09 I shot the 450 rounds I took and reloaded 300 more and just about didn't have enough for the last day of the match .:)

[Don McDowell]

Just got to thinking, and remembered Dick Savage's CSharps in 50-90, it's got that 1-26 twist barrel. He shoots a bullet just a tad over 600 gr and likes it alot, and it's results to the 1000 yd gongs is hard to arque with. Says it's not bad to shoot like the faster twists and the heavier bullets.

[Lead pot]

Don.

Dick shoots that 50 very good and he is good at developing loads for that rifle.

You know some say that the 50 wont hold the winds.
I will take the 09 Q as an example when the winds were blowing 30 mph + and gusting a lot higher I seen the other shooters on my line cranking the front sights over because they didn't have enough on the back sight and the ones that did not have a wind gage front were holding way off. I still had two points on my windage and I cleaned that 800 yd buff and I might have cleaned the 600 if I wouldn't have knocked the tang sight loose with the blow tube and raised the sight when I pushed it back up.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt when I got the honor of shooting Kalamity that time, I didn't mind the recoil at all. I can see where it'll wear on a person from a long string, but then most rifles will wear you down after a time.
Dick ran into windage problems at Kenny's shoot on the 900, but that's because he forgot that the MVA buffalo sight has more windage than it has marks, so when he got to the last mark on the drum he thought he was out until the last couple of shots... He shot that rifle quite well at Baker in some snitzy wind's.

[Gunlaker]

You know some say that the 50 wont hold the winds.


I wonder how much of that comes from slower twist rifles with lighter bullets? Those big 700gr bullets must have a BC that is equal to or greater than most of the .45's.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Chris.

I set up the two chronographs spaced with a Lazer exactly 200 yards, 20 and 220 yards and checked it for a BC with all the bullets I use, PP and GG and at 1305 fps it is high but I cant give you the exact figures I had recorded in the log book that was lost at the range.
I have to do it again for the .44-90 again anyway.

[5.7 MAN]

Everyone talks about recoil with the 50-90 What should I expect? I've owned a 458 Winchester, Turkey Loads? I plan on shooting off sticks most of the time at 1-300 yds. They have CAS buffalo shoots from time to time which I would like to try.

Dan

[5.7 MAN]

It's more of Jolt than I thought it would be and I was using 425 Grain bullets! I got nice group that was about as wide as the loaded cartridge is long and half as high. I'll admit it I was using AA5744. Now I'll to work on a proper BP load with a PP bullet.

Thanks for the advice!

It's not anywhere near what my .458 was. I've shot off of cross sticks in the past and Will give them a try again on my next outing.

Dan

[Lead pot]

Dan,

Cant help you with the comparison between the .458, never shot one, and the .50 2.5 and the smokeless powder, I dont use it.
The felt recoil is different when sitting then prone shooting off cross sticks.
Sitting you can roll with the recoil while in the prone position you will absorb more.

[Gunlaker]

The jolt will be a bit heavier with BP and heavy bullets. My .50-140 with 700gr bullets and a 135gr charge of 1F will definitely make you notice. I don't imagine that a heavily loaded .50-90 would be much different. Especially with a heavy paper patched bullet seated way out.

I shoot it sitting off of cross sticks and never prone. I find that when you pull the trigger, you'll suddenly find yourself seated about 6" back from where you used to be :veryconfu

Chris.

[RMulhern]

NOTHING....compared to a 300 Win Mag shooting 200 gr. SHPBT bullets prone with a charge of 69 grs. IMR 4350! I fired thousands of rounds in 1000 yd. matches in NRA HP events using a rifle that weighed in at 14# so I know quite well to which I speak. BP is just a BIG PUSH; not abrupt/violent at all like the above load! :mrgreen::drinks: The bad stuff comes out the muzzle...not the back end!!

[Lead pot]

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

You will get 1290 fps to 1320 depending on the powder you use shooting the 720 grain bullet with 110 grains of 1FG black powder.
A Shiloh with a 34" HVY barrel will be around 12.5 to 13 lbs depending on the wood.

[Gunlaker]

NOTHING....compared to a 300 Win Mag shooting 200 gr. SHPBT bullets prone with a charge of 69 grs. IMR 4350! I fired thousands of rounds in 1000 yd. matches in NRA HP events using a rifle that weighed in at 14# so I know quite well to which I speak. BP is just a BIG PUSH; not abrupt/violent at all like the above load! :mrgreen::drinks: The bad stuff comes out the muzzle...not the back end!!

I certainly agree about BP being a big push or shove. Some of that smokeless stuff is violent :-). We had a guy at the range last year with a .416 that he was trying to get other guys to shoot. I shot it twice in my tshirt. That was good enough for me.

I've never used a 300 Win Mag, but it doesn't sound like a boat load of fun. :grin:

Chris.

[EDK]

Do some reading on proper installation of a recoil reducer in the butt stock of your rifle. I ordered my SHILOH SHARPS long range express, 34 inch heavy octagon barrel, with one installed. It helps.

Bobw over at shilohrifle.com/forums has been shooting a 10.5 pound (IIRC) 50/140 with 500 grain paper patched...RCBS mould? at Quigley for most of the time I've known him there. He's a durable little guy who delights in scaring off the rattlesnakes and wimps on the firing line. There are several people who avoid his relay at the Q like the plague!

:redneck::cbpour::Fire: