.38-55 Load Problem: Part XVII

[FromTheWoods]

Model '94 .38-55 DOM=1895 26"barrel
26.3 gr. H4895
Starline Brass trimmed to 2.104 (to fit chamber)
Rim Rock Bullet: .381 240gr.
CCI Large Rifle Primer

May I have your opinions on how to get this rifle to shoot consistently?

With loads from 21 to 28 gr. and loading three cartridges in varied amounts--shooting them is boggling. From about 40 yards--in most groups of three, two holes are touching or nearly touching, but the third hole is a wandering shot an inch or so away. No reason I know of to throw that shot off the point of aim.

There is unburned powder in the barrel--never have found this before with the other '94 calibers I load with H4895.

What causes this wayward shot?

Would a magnum primer take care of the unburned powder?
If so, would the mag. primer cause excessive pressure?

Would filler (Original Shot Buffer) insure a complete burn?

Maybe go to a .382 bullet?



On a brighter note: I figured out that the diameter of the slug was not causing chambering problems. Case length was a little too long. Now I don't send the completed cartridge into a sizing die--which I was uncomfortable with and some of you pointed out a while back that doing so was not such a good method.

[Bullshop]

Lube purging?

[475BH]

Could you be changing your grip or Is the buttstock a lil loose?
It doesn't take much, I found the stock on my T/C TenderCarbine barelly loose and would throw shots, the grip matters on those things also.

(:takinWiz:<-- [smilie=l:that's funny right there!)

[northmn]

Most 38-55 shooters tend to use a little faster burning powder than 4895 in the range of 4198 or 4227. The SAAMI standard for most brass is 2.085 which, if you are too long is probably about right. If you are using purchased bullets weigh them.

DP

[BABore]

Try some Reloder 7. Your on the really slow side for such a light boolit. Also, hand hold the forend when shooting. Leverguns can be touchy on forend contact with bags.

[Jon K]

Did you slug the barrel? Groove diameter?

Load is too light. My shooting partner uses 4895(31gr) w/BACO 260 gr. boolit.

Myself, I use 18gr 4759/282gr PJ 38006.

Jon

[Doc Highwall]

What kind of dies are you using and what size is your expander? How heavy of a crimp are you using?

[405]

Agreed, with others about the better 38-55 powders. Unburned or partially burned powder kernels usually mean too low pressure for the type of powder or too slow powder for the application. However, some of my best loads leave some partially burned kernels in the bore, particularly in reduced loads with powders like 5744. I learned to not pay any attention to it if the load was doing what I wanted.

I have about the same gun and caliber with a similar DOM (1894). As I approach about 1450 fps using 5744 and a 255 gr GC bullet I start feeling uneasy!- the sound coming out of the muzzle is starting to crack and the recoil and recoil vibration is getting much sharper. Using either Reloader #7 or 5744 with dacron filler and yielding about 1300 fps, I am getting no unburned kernels, the accuracy is excellent and I'm not worrying about too much pressure.

[FromTheWoods]

The rifle is tight, but I might have been changing my hand underneath it.

I have slugged the barrel--that was when I began playing with this rifle. With all the experiments and the time that has passed--I should have written it down. I'll slug it again.

That is H4198, not IMR4198?

Would you people who use RL7 and 4198 please send me your load information?

A .222 Sako Riihimaki followed me home yesterday, and it appears many folks are using these powders in this cartridge. (That way, I can maybe load the .38-55 and the .222 with the same powder.)

Hodgdon's site shows the following as the load range. That is why I haven't gone above 28 grains.--
250 GR. LYMAN CAST H4895 .376" 2.500" 21.0 1197 18,200 CUP 26.0 1600 26,500 CUP

[northmn]

All the problems we seem to have with this caliber in lever guns. In singleshots using BP it is one of the most accurate cartridges there is. Makes me wonder sometimes if I should not try BP in my lever gun. when I think of cleaning I do get over that notion, but some day???? Might be BP velocities are also the answer.

DP

[405]

I'm not sure whether your main concern is optimum powder burn efficiency and velocity OR accuracy without leading. My solution to getting old Win 1894s in 38-55 to shoot well is to use thin neck wall brass like Starline, use a gas-checked bullet sized to at least .379, not worry about MAKING the bullet stabilize by sheer velocity (RPM) and using an appropriate powder for a straight wall cartridge designed to shoot a bullet to about 1300 fps (the original specs for that cartridge and gun). A chronograph will allow you to get to such places without extrapolating load data. Powders that seem to do that in that class and design of cartridge are those with burn rates about like Rel #7 and 5744 and others close to that range.

The other possibility is that some guns/bores are shooters and some aren't. A 115 year old gun is what it is. We can fine tune cast bullets and loads to a point and cast bullets allow for about as much tuning as can be done... beyond that?

[FromTheWoods]

Thanks, 405.

I've had the itch to get a chronograph for a few years now. Surely would help tuning loads.

This rifle should shoot better than I've loaded it to shoot so far. My youngest has a '73 .32-20 that keyholed until we tried different remedies--spot-on now. Our .32-40 has a poorer bore than this .38-55, and he shoots deer with it now--very accurate.

I did think about gas-checks, but am not ready to walk away from the plain base.

I'm going to get in touch with the Bullshop folks and try their bullets in it. I was planning to use up my current supply of bullets and then contact them, but that would mean reworking the load development. And I'd like to contribute to the Bullshop ideal.

From the advice above, looks as if I'll be switching to a better powder.

[peerlesscowboy]

Would you people who use RL7 and 4198 please send me your load information.
How heavy do you want to load? Try 20 grains of IMR4198 for 1543 fps, Lyman 240 grain #375248, nice mild load.

I've run Rx7 up to 30 grains for 1872 fps with an RCBS 264 gr GC bullet, this load is heavy.

John C. Saubak

[runfiverun]

try another boolit.
or protect the beveled base on yours better.
i seriously doubt the plastic lube rimrock uses is purging anything but parrafin or food coloring.
the best i could make this boolit shoot was by using a gas check, inverted, h-322 and a filler.
i sized to bore plus .003, with near the same bhn as the 2/6/92 rimrock boolit.
my groups and velocity improved considerably by using another boolit with a gas check built in.

[August]

I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the load and everything to do with the rifle.

I would suggest (variously) tightening and loosening the attachments between the barrel and the magazine tube, and between the barrel and the fore end.

Some of the guys over at the Marlin site have actually managed to free float the barrel of lever guns.

It sounds like barrel heating to me.

[Jon K]

I was using 4198 until the last price increase...try 20gr, worked good for me.

Jon

[405]

FromTheWoods,
May or may not help, but I'll PM some load data when I get back home and can pull the specifics out of my log book.

[hydraulic]

I shoot the same load (26/4895-240 gr. bullet) for lever gun silhouette. It shoots accurately-2" at 100-in my '94 with a Numric 26" barrel, but my bullet is a Mountain Mould gas check design cast from wheel weights.

[rintinglen]

+1 on the powder being too slow. What I suspect is that the Load is at the bottom end of the useful pressure range, and minor variances in case length, boolit diameter and crimp strength are enough to drop the pressure so low that you get incomplete combustion. In my Marlin CB,under a Lyman 378-248 250 grain boolit I use Reloader 7, Imr 4198, and 2400. I use 22 grains of either RL-:7 or 4198, or 17 grains of 2400. I tried 3031, but I had similar problems with un-burned powder and variable groups. It is curious, because I had good luck with 3031 in a 32-40, and it was used for many years as one of the powders of choice in the 30-30.

[FromTheWoods]

Bought the RL7 today.

Don't get to reload though. Going to the mountains for a bit.

I'll let you folks know how the new loads work.

It is comforting, knowing you people are willing to help, offer level-headed advice, and aid in making my family's shooting and hunting safer than it would have been without you.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me.

[KirkD]

H4895 and IMR4895 are way too slow in my opinion. I shoot an original '94 shipped in 1899. I use a medium speed powder and a soft cast bullet. That will result in the bullet expanding to seal the throat and bore. The powders I found best in mine are 2400 and IMR SR4759. When I first started shooting this rifle, accuracy was not so great, but with the right powder it puts five shots into 2" at 100 yards no problem.