311284 - What's your opinion ?

[Ben]

I'm giving though to ordering a ( new ) current production double cav. Lyman 311284 bullet mold .

My ( 8 + .30 cal rifles ) rifles shoot best with a nose dia. of .3015 or .302 " I shoot air cooled WW's mostly.

Many .30 cal. rifle molds that I've bought recently( new and used) have a nose dia. of .298 or .299 ". Am I better off to wait and find an older mold or " roll the dice " and try a new one ?

Whether or not it is new or old, if I get another .298 nose mold, it will basically be a useless item for me. Btw , I have a single cav. 311290 HP mold that the nose mikes .296 on....It has never shot worth a cuss.

Your experiences on this would be appreciated.....

Thanks,

Ben in Alabama

[45 2.1]

You might want to wait, there is a possibility of a custom 4 banger of the 311284 cut to proper dimensions.

[Ben]

Might just be worth the wait.

Thanks for the " Heads Up."

Ben

[grouch]

If that nose diameter is what you need, have you considered 311299? or if you are set on 311284, you could lap the nose bigger.

[grouch]

If you need that nose diameter, have you considerd 311299? Or if you're set on 311284, you can lap the nose bigger.

[Ben]

If we could all get exactly what we were looking for in a mold , wouldn't it be wonderful ? If I could avoid lapping, I'd really like to do that. Maybe I'll run into a caster ( with a duplicate mold situation in his inventory ) that already has one that has cast with it and KNOWS what the nose dia. is. No guessing , lapping , etc. then.

I believe it is out there, I just haven't found it yet......

Who knows maybe if I hold out long enough , I'll find it ? ? ?

Thanks,

Ben

[BruceB]

As we can see in this thread, the undersize nose is a common complaint.

Since I have quite a variety of .30 boolits of various designs out in the shop, I went out and measured the noses on a few of them.

311672 ...has a tapering nose diameter of .304 on a shank ahead of the first groove, dropping gradually down to .299. It should work well when seated into the rifling.

311291 ...from my 4-cavity mould is .301-.3015". It took some searching, and I bought about four other 311291 moulds before lucking into this one, FINALLY. All the others were under .300 nose diameter.

311466 ... diameter immediately ahead of the front groove is .301"

311467 ...is .3015-.302"! Just about right for most uses.

311413 ...is .3015"

311334 ...measures .297"

311299 is .299" ..... I'd STRONGLY suggest going to the 314299 instead of this one. That's what I intend to do in the near future. The nose diameter is critical; the bands can be sized to whatever we want (within reason).

311284 ...came in at .2988"

Lee .30-180 is .2995"

Lee 312-155 is .306", NOTE: .306! ...this is intended as a 7.62x39, but???? For less than twenty bucks, this could be a winner.

All the above were cast hot and fast via my speedcasting technique. Alloy is straight wheelweights.

[Char-Gar]

my 311284 is about two years old and cast out (No. 2 alloy) at .300 on the nose. This bullet is one of the original Barlow designs and is not a true bore-rider as we understand that term. The body is much longer than say 311299.

This bullet has given me good results in a pair of 03A3 springfields and a 1954 vintage Winchester 70. The 03A3s run about .301 accross the lands and the Model 70 runs. .300.

RCBS 165 Sil will cast out at .301 on the nose and has given me good results in every 30 cal rifle through which I have fired it.

The undersized nose can indeed be a problem. The longer the nose in porportion to the body the greater the problem.

[Ben]

You fellows have got me to wondering if I'm not chasing something that probably doesn't even exist. Doesn't sound like my chances of finding a 311284 that will have the proper nose dia. ( .301 ) is very likely ? ?

Ben

[sundog]

Ben, my opinion on the 311284 is wait. You could go through a bunch of moulds and not find one that exceeds .300 on the nose. While it is one of the better boolits, it's usually only better when it's bigger.

I'm working a big batch of 311291 right now that I cast very recently on several different days. They are .311+ x .302+ and weigh 190+ and are very consistent. This boolit has been a top performer for me for years in mil bolt matches in more than several rifles, mine and others.

Another boolit that I've just recently started fooling around with is the Lee 312-185-1R, and so far I'm very impressed. Last week in an exccedingly strong wind (25 knot steady) from my 6 it shot a 10-round group at a hunert .5 wide by 2.5 tall from a .308 700 VS (Charger?) with 42.0/DP86 (yes, that an eighty-six not sixty-eight). Estimated MV is 2200. I think the vertical dispersion was more due to shot deviation (evidence slighty trashy bbl) than the wind. Later I bumped the charge up a grain (caseful) and tried a mag primer and it cleaned up - need to print on paper again. Nice thing about this boolit for experimentation purposes is that it is a SC Lee mould <20 clams, and it's bigger than most of the current crop of off the shelf 30's that are available. This might be a good design for a group buy. It did better in accuracy than the Fat 30, in this test. It was so steekin' windy it was useless to shoot 200 - they both really scattered.

Another boolit that has worked well for me in an 03A3 sporter is the 314299 (314 not 311). The 311 is a good boolit, but the 314 works 'mo betta' when your start pushing things and it fills the throat better (if that's what you need).

Here's the dilema as I see it. Most 30 bores are 10 twist which in my opinion is 'generally' too fast for cast. You can make it work (and work well with tinkering), but in going to heavier (longer) boolits, which are fine for hunting, you trade off speed to some extent and hence have more drop over some range - slower AND heavier. Sooner or later you'll hit the RPM wall. That's not to say it is all bad or not accurate, you just have more drop to contend with -- along with longer hang time for the wind to work its magic, too. Look at what the buff runners did. And the single shot guys. Not all bad. Let's face it, modern rifles are made for FLGC bullets and the rules for real boolits are a little different if optimum performance is to be achieved. Okay, done rambling. sundog

[sundog]

Bruce, just noticed your comment about the 312-155. I have a part of a 1# coffee can of them still sitting there. I remember shooting a bunch of them, don't remember specifically the results, but since the rest are still sitting there, then they must not have been all that good in what I tried them in, which would probably have been 03s/03A3s. The 312-185 has a more weight forward shape, as well as being heavier and longer. Again, we're back to that 10 twist thing. Perhaps the 312-155 might be better in, say a 12 or 13 twist??? sundog

[JCherry]

One option which has worked on my 311284 single cavity mould is to Beagle just the nose of the mould.

By placing a strip of adhesive backed Aluminum flue tape on the bottom or just below the nose cavity of your mould you can open up the diameter of the bullet nose.

I have used my 311284 for a 30-40 Krag, 03 Springfields and M1 Garands. I find that .3015 works best overall for my weapons. One of the M1's however does better with a .302 nose so I just adjust the tape a bit until the mould throws bullets with the right sized nose.

If you have not experimented with Beagling your moulds it is something you must do as it allows use of moulds which, as several of you have mentioned are just a bit small in the nose.

Beagling allows one to get exactly what he's looking for from a mould. It is wonderful.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[cherok9878]

Ben, I have a lyman 311299 that drops at .310 on the driving bands but the nose is an average .299. A little smaller than you need.
I wonder if it would be fesable to "beagle" a mould to get the demension needed.
This round does very well in a 1903A3 I have. If you would like to try some boolits let me know...........larry

[Buckshot]

.............The 311284 is my favorite 30 cal slug for no other reason then it was my first boolit mould and it shot so well. I bought it sometime in the late 70's. Out of scrap bullets or WW comparable alloy it mikes .301" x .311".

http://www.fototime.com/40BB526F230E11D/standard.jpg

As can be seen in this photo (it's on the left :-)) it engraves well in a .300" bore. Yes it's in a 7.62x39 but this is the GPC barrel which is .300x.308".

I have an article by Henry Beverage about accurate cast lead shooting. He decided he wanted to compete in shooting cast off the bench and his boolit of choice was the 311284. What he did was to buy 5 moulds from as scattered locations as possible in the United States, hoping this would give him 5 moulds of varying 'runs' so he could have several diameters to choose from.

In those 5 moulds he found 2 suitable ones, and of those 2 he picked the one most consistant from cavity to cavity. It didn't say in the articl but I suppose he sold the other 4 undesireables off.

One reson I like Loverins so much is that there is no nose fitting to mess with, as they're 90-95% body.

................Buckshot

[sundog]

Okay, I'll back up on what I said about waiting. If you want to go the 'beagle' route if it's too small, get the mould now. I hope my opinion did not stilt you the wrong way, it wasn't meant too. The 311284 is a good boolit if you get it to fit. My 311284 is .299 on the nose, I've beagled it, and it shoots good. All depends on whether you want to do that. But I will stick to what I said earlier about 10 twist and hitting the RPM wall. The offset to that is a harder boolit.

Ya know, you could beg some boolits off the fellers here, before you lay out bucks. It's been done before.... Problem is that after reimbursing for postage, well, that's bones that coulda been used for getting a mould in the first place. sundog

[Ben]

Much good reading here and very informative indeed. Thanks to all of you who have offered additional insight into - - - " As the nose grows ".

Is there some maufacturing reason why Lyman can't or won't make their molds with the proper nose dia. to fit our rifles. Why so many molds with undersized nose specs ? ?...I own several and it sounds like a lot of you own more also. Is it poor quality control, worn tooling, - - what's the problem ?

We've gone to the moon and back ....wouldn't you think a mold could be made with the right specs ? This isn't brain surgery is it ?

I don't mind spending $ 55 for a Lyman mold, but knowing that the odds are about 5 to 1 against me that I'll end up with a mold that will throw a suitable bullet really takes the wind out of my sails. I have beagled with success, however I still come back to the point ...Can't Lyman tighten up their specs, listen to the cast bullet communities concerns and respond with an improved product ?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know ?

Ben

[Bass Ackward]

We've gone to the moon and back ....wouldn't you think a mold could be made with the right specs ? This isn't brain surgery is it ?

Can't Lyman tighten up their specs, listen to the cast bullet communities concerns and respond with an improved product ?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know ?

Ben


Ben,

Lyman is concerned that they fit in everything. Not that they shoot in everything.

Buy a mold that is second hand and ask what the dimensions are and with what mix before you buy. If they can't answer, don't buy. But make sure you ask everything. I got excited when I heard my mold threw a .3015 nose out of WW metal. That was the good news. The body which I didn't ask about is only .3075 to .3085 and the blocks aren't misaligned.

Undersized, outta balance and all it will still hold 1/2" if you don't need to push it.

[Char-Gar]

Ben... Lyman will keeping making funky size molds as long as folks continue to buy them. They have made and sold them like that forever. I think it is called Corporate inertia.

Lyman bullets designs that go back generations have gone through a number of cherries and you wonder if the guy that ground the cherries had any specs to work with, as they vary widly in size.

Lyman is not known for being responsive to their customers. RCBS on the other hand takes their customers very serious. Their molds most often do better than the lyman. RCBS knows that a .301 nose is a good thing.

[Ben]

Charger :

I do believe that you've " hit the nail on the head ", I'm glad Lyman doesn't make pace makers or parachutes . With the quality control that they've historically shown, I don't think I'd be interested in buying any of em'.

Maybe I need to change my focus from the Lyman 311284 over to a Hvy. weight .30 cal. RCBS where my mathematical chances of getting a .301 nose are better ?

I have nothing but good things to say about RCBS and their customer service that they offer. A great company.

Thanks again to all for your input ,

Merry Christmas,

Ben

[Bret4207]

I've mentioned this before and it's just a theory I have after reading dusty old tomes like The Rifleman fromt the 30's-50's. I think the reason Lymans moulds run small is because buyers used to complaina bout them being oversize and they didn't want to but a lubrisizer. Judging by the old reports it would seem most of the old timers pan lubed and used a Kake Cutter type sizer. Those .312+ 311284's we all seek didn't work so well with a Kake Cutter.

Just my opinion.