To size, or not to size.....

[saz]

I picked up an old Lyman 457125 a while ago and finally got around to casting with it. I tried a couple different things with 2 alloys. I had my lee bottom pour filled with straight WW heated up and while I was casting a bunch of pistol boolits, I had a small 10lb pot of 20:1 heating up on a small single burner propane camp stove. I pulled out the ladle and warmed up the mold. I tried the bottom pour just to see the results for myself, and it looked like s#$t. Into the sprue bucket they went, but at least it heated up the mold. I started off with the WW pot and slowly started lowering the temp just to see what would happen with the temperature variation. I did find out that I do have an out of round mold by a few thousandths.

WW at 850 degrees- Base .4581"x.4622"
Top Band .460"
Nose .440"

WW at 750 degrees- Base .4580"x.4635"
Top Band .4600"x.4610"
Nose .437"x.440"

WW at 650 degrees- Base .4573"x.4637"
Top Band .4600"x.4610"
Nose .435"x.440"

20:1 at 650 degrees- Base .4580"x.4620"
Top Band .4590"x.4610"
Nose .437"x.440"

As you can see the bases are way out of round, but the top driving band is a lot more consistent. The noses are way small. I am a little dissapointed but it is what it is. It seems that the 850* WW and 20:1 are the most consistent so I am tempted to just load them and shoot them as is, if they will chaimber with the bases at .462". If not, I am thinking about getting a .460" push thru Lee type sizer. I have some Bullshop NASA lube to use as it is a proven lube. I am just happy to get the rifle out again after a long alaska winter. It is a huge PITA to try to learn BPCR in the cold. Thoughts?

[cajun shooter]

I'm happy to hear that y'all made the winter. SAZ, I am a true believer in the sizing of bullets with a top of the line sizer. For the rifle that you are speaking about you should size them at .460 or at the very least .459 To me if you shoot a bullet that is not concentric then you have lost before the trigger is pulled. A true concentric bullet just off the rifling will make you smile. Try pan lubing the bullets with the NASA and then run them through your sizer. Many folks use different ways in pan lubing that work for them. I prefer the use of a Kate Kutter. Buckshot has made me a couple that are outstanding. He knurls them and they are dead on dimension. I requested a 462 on my last one and it is a pleasure to use. Being made of steel and hollow they work fast with the bullet passing out the top when it is full. They have a nice case hardened finish and are sharp for easy cutting. Mine are 4 1/2 inches in length. Later David

[longranger]

Conversations with Paul Jones has led me to not resize bullets from his molds."why do you want to alter a perfect projectile ?"Get the right mold for the application from a good mold maker and leave the resizing stuff behind.There is a reason that Lyman molds cost $70.00 and custom molds are twice that plus.
Lyman molds are notorious for being out of round I just don't bother with them I don't like extra mandatory steps.

[cajun shooter]

Longranger, The OP was directed at Lyman moulds as was the answer. There are several custom mould makers that could say the same for the moulds they make also. Some of our members including myself have to purchase less than a Rolex to know the time. Why not send the op some of your Paul Jones bullets so that he might be able to have those same feelings. He happens to be a solider serving our country and is doing what he is able on military pay.

[montana_charlie]

Saz's only question was, "Thoughts?"

Obviously, Longranger's 'thought' was to pass along one prevalent school of thought concerning bullet fit which is ... a bullet cast to fit the rifle is a better candidate than one which required modification after being cast.

Getting that fit from a mass produced mould is possible, but not generally expected. That's why makers of mass produced bullet moulds also mass produce bullet sizing equipment.

Looking back at previous posts by Saz, it's clear that he is able to dedicate more of his military pay to 'guns' than I ever managed to. If he becomes convinced that Longranger's message is important to him, I am sure that he can put aside the price of a Paul Jones mould.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Saz getting one of the lee size dies to your deminsions is a good idea, altho you may end up sending it back to lee several times to get the diameter the way it should be...
If you're using a lubrisizer you can get "custom" diameter's from Buffalo Arms.
It looks to me like your shootem as cast isn't a bad idea at all. If they chamber etc and don't cause to much leading, those bases will be as round as your rifle barrel is by the time it gets out of the muzzle.

[longranger]

Thank you MT Charlie,
I had no idea the O.P. was an active soldier earning soldiers pay,that point is not clear in the thread.I find it more cost effective to buy a good mold(they do that here) and not have to purchase all of the resizing equipment.A good mold and pan lubing is just easier.
I did not know Rolex was making bullet molds ?
I would be more than happy to send some of my P.J. bullets to the O.P. upon his request.
Have been shooting BPCR's long enough to know how to follow the folks who do well in the sport.I think folks spin their wheels to much trying to take short cuts or reinventing the wheel or just plain doing extra work.Buying marginal equipment leads to marginal results,RCBS and Saeco/Redding make moulds many times better than Lyman for a few dollars more.There have been group buys on this forum for about any cast bullet you could hope for at very reasonable prices and the quality is as good as anywhere.I do not understand the quibble,my apologies if I have ruffled some feathers.

[Doc Highwall]

saz, I know your question was about sizing but with out knowing more about the chamber and bore/groove size I cannot recommend yet. I do think you are all set for lapping your mould for a better bullet first with out spending money. I see you know how to use a micrometer so I would first take apart the mould and make sure that the alignment pins are tight enough too eliminate play but not so tight that that it makes it hard to get the two halves apart. Now I would make sure all the vent lines are clear and file and stone all edge breaks including the top and bottom of the sprue plate where is slides on and off the top of the mould. Then I would place a hex nut over the cavity and cast a bullet with wrinkles to hold the lapping compound and use more at the bottom of the mould near the base and keep lapping on a trial bases till you get a round bullet. The 457125 is a good bullet.

[Lead pot]

Doc is right, you can lap a out of round bullet and get it good.
I had one of the ugliest Lyman 132 postell moulds that had very bad tool marks and .003 out of round.
If your careful you can lap it so it does not increase the diameter to much and only take out the tight spot or the smallest diameter of the cavity.
Take a bullet cast still in the cavity cut the sprue and tale a scribe and mark the center through the plate and take the bullet out and drill a hole about 1/2 " in and I use a 3/4" hex head screw and screw it in with a nut driver while holding the bullet in the mould and when it is just about to turn the bullet I stop.
Next I use a course aluminum file and lightly roll the bullet in fine grade valve stem grinding compound or I use Clover lapping compound but valve stem grinding past works just fine. You can get it at a Auto supply store.
I place the bullet back in the mould and I use a drill with a nut driver and very light pressure I close the mould while the bullet is spinning. Just use very light pressure on the handles.
When the mould is closed after spinning the bullet let it work for a while.
Open the mould and look at what your doing and you will see that the tight spot is starting to get polished more then the loose spot or the widest diameter of the bullet.
Next I take a new bullet from before the lap and do this again but this time I have some shallow grooves cut the length of the bullet using a knife file and do this till I get what I need.
Dont get impatient work it slow you will only take off the high points with out taking to much off where you dont want.

Just dont use a screw that is longer then the bullet or you will drive it through the bullet and then you have a problem.

[saz]

Well first off, I know Cajun and I know he is aware of where I am coming from. I bought my rifle last year and in the midst of learning this BPCR thing we had one of the coldest winters in 20 or so years. NOT fun dealing with lubed patches and wondering if blow tubing is just creating ice at 20* above zero to the coldest day I was out shooting this winter which was -23*. I shelved the project until it warmed up. Could I afford a PJ or brooks mold if I wanted to? Probably- but that kills the learning curve for me. I have been casting for a few years now but am in no means an "expert". I look at it this way: My grandpa told me, "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see". What that means to me is be smart enough to take advice from the experienced people, but still see for yourself. I train soldiers that way to this day.

As far as new guns go, I move ones that have lost their usefullness or fun factor to make room for new ones. I dont have a lot of guns, just ones that get used a lot.

I have "leemented" molds before with comet but I have never tried to lap a mould back to round before. This will be touchy and tedious work.

Now for a sizing die..... I do not own a lubersizer- most of the boolits I cast are shot with my 45-45-10 mix based on LLA. WONDERFUL STUFF!!!!! For smokeless anyways.... I pan lube anything that doesnt work with the LLA mix. SO if I bought a push thru sizing die it would come from Buckshot.

[Doc Highwall]

Saz, one thing to remember when lapping is it removes the high spots first making it rounder. Any lapping you do on the mould will be a step in the right direction. From the measurements you gave I think you will end up with a bullet that fits your gun really well.

[RMulhern]

Never heard of anyone that had a Lyman mould brag about round bullets!! I've heard some say....they shot good! Go figure!

Lyman makes $$$$$ off 'newbies' that think they're gonna get by in BPCR CHEAP!!

It ain't so!!

[cajun shooter]

MC, You might have a fortune to be made and are unaware of it. Your mind reading abilities must be at a higher level that most others. When I see someone say thoughts at the very end of a question, it tells me that they are asking opinions from those who read it. I happen to know SAZ and I also am very aware of the rifle that he is shooting. By putting that information together is why I gave my answer. I am also proud to see that he choose to serve his country. I have owned many a Lyman mould and in the late 60's early 70's they worked well for me. The ones that I have purchased in the past 10 years have all needed to be tweaked or returned for a refund. I now have and use nothing but custom made molds with a couple of brand names that happen to be good. You may give very good answers without the calling out of brand names or giving what someone uses a brand of being very bad so that they feel belittled. What a person owns or uses should never be the subject of your answer. What matters is if you supply that person with enough information to help them. When I joined this forum, it was after I read all the answers being given out and how the older members were willing to help a newbie. If it turns into a ring clicking club and the downing of members then I will excuse myself.

[RMulhern]

Thoughts!

cajun shooter

You didn't single me out at all and I take no offense...as frankly I was giving both sides of the coin with my posting. The Rdnck has had good luck with Lyman moulds if memory serves me correctly....even though the bullets may look as if they've been cut with a 'turning plow' (which I don't care for)...they shoot for Bill. I as well....have purchased a Lyman mould or two but in the final analysis....they now get no use...since I like smooth looking bullets and the moulds with the larger blocks. Shooting GG has pretty much gone the way of the wild goose for me!

Getting any storms down your way?

[montana_charlie]

MC, You might have a fortune to be made and are unaware of it. Your mind reading abilities must be at a higher level that most others. When I see someone say thoughts at the very end of a question, it tells me that they are asking opinions from those who read it.
It tells me the person is asking for 'any thoughts' that come to mind, not just thoughts about Lyman moulds.

The actual question (asked in the thread title) is whether to size or not size a bullet. Longranger is of the opinion that any bullet sizing detracts from it's functionality. He stated that, using other terms, and named his source for the advice.

Now, perhaps I should apologize for stepping between you and Longranger. But your scolding of him by saying, "Longranger, The OP was directed at Lyman moulds as was the answer." seemed a bit like 'ring clicking' between you and Saz that left you as the arbiter of what was an appropriate answer, and what was not.
It was my opinion that Longranger's answer did have value to Saz' considerations about bullet sizing as a topic of conversation, and I responded primarily to explain the thinking behind Longranger's reply ... not to offer any hard evidence either way.

I happen to know SAZ and I also am very aware of the rifle that he is shooting. By putting that information together is why I gave my answer.
I don't care why you gave that answer, and I have no desire to argue with it's validity. My only intent was to say a word in defense of Longranger (whom I have never met, nor had a conversation with) since he is probably too polite to simply tell you to stuff it.

What a person owns or uses should never be the subject of your answer.
As you can see from your own remark, you still appear to take the position of arbiter over what constitutes a proper answer.


Good day, sir ...

CM

[cajun shooter]

MC, I will step back and give you the floor. You will twist and turn and add anything you need to become the correct one. I think this thread is along the lines of don't argue with fools as they will beat you with experience. I will add that if you and Don were speaking and he asked a question that involved the shooting of a rifle that you had lots of knowledge about. You are telling me that would not have anything to bear on your answer to him. That sir is absurd and I have the right to express my answer before having your permission even though you set your self up as the most knowledgeable member of the forum. I did not know that the Longranger and I were in any kind of battle over the question. It was a discussion with two different idea's that should not make us resort to telling the other to stuff it as you put it. Have a nice day!!

[cajun shooter]

Hey Rick, I was not directing that post towards you. It was intended for MC who chooses to find something wrong with other members post but his postings are to be written in granite as the master of the forum. We were lucky in the fact that the heavy storms turned North just before making it this far south. We are having a crazy but normal Louisiana jump in weather. Just go from winter to summer and leave out spring. I'm still going to doctors to find out why I'm only breathing on my left lung. We had a SASS match in Amite two Saturdays ago that was 89 degrees with 85% humidity. They are 5 stage matches with 10 rifle,10 revolver and 4-8 shotgun per stage. I had to stop after the 4th stage and go to my truck for my oxygen machine as I was having a tough time with the conditions. Everyone including my family members keep telling me to start shooting smokeless and quit black powder. I told them it was not going to happen as the shooting of my BP guns is the reason I shoot to start with. Take Care David

[RMulhern]

Hey Rick, I was not directing that post towards you. It was intended for MC who chooses to find something wrong with other members post but his postings are to be written in granite as the master of the forum. We were lucky in the fact that the heavy storms turned North just before making it this far south. We are having a crazy but normal Louisiana jump in weather. Just go from winter to summer and leave out spring. I'm still going to doctors to find out why I'm only breathing on my left lung. We had a SASS match in Amite two Saturdays ago that was 89 degrees with 85% humidity. They are 5 stage matches with 10 rifle,10 revolver and 4-8 shotgun per stage. I had to stop after the 4th stage and go to my truck for my oxygen machine as I was having a tough time with the conditions. Everyone including my family members keep telling me to start shooting smokeless and quit black powder. I told them it was not going to happen as the shooting of my BP guns is the reason I shoot to start with. Take Care David

David

I knew you weren't calling me out! Just wanted to make that posting to you! Hope you can eventually get the health problem squared away!

Take care!

[saz]

Well I played around with the 457125's and they will load and chaimber just fine without sizing, so I worked some up and loaded them on top of 70grs of Goex cartridge. We will see what happens............