29.9BHN, and tough

[madsenshooter]

I've been experimenting with lead based babbitts that cast at 23BHN, then a few gaschecks and a big 44cal jacket fell into my pot. With the help of a little MPP/OXY torch, they became a part of the melt. Went in pretty readily, I suppose since the lead based babbitt already had 1/2% Cu. Tried to snap one like can be done with linotype alloys. Ha, couldn't get it to break using a pair of pliers on each end. Did manage to bend it a little.

[badbob454]

what do you think your composition is ?

[badgeredd]

I had some telephone cable wrapped with lead and the copper wire inside had corroded to the point of having a green deposit on the inside of the sheathing which I melted down. I fluxed it with some of Pat Marlin's FF and it seemed to assimilate the green stuff. BOY is that stuff hard!!!! It appears to me that the added copper oxide makes the boolit very tough without the brittleness that antimony alone seems to add.

BTW could that babbitt be some of the stuff I sent to you?

Edd.

[madsenshooter]

No, I still have that and it's composition though Edd. I thought I answered badbogerman's question last night. I didn't keep track of the composition to be honest with you, may have boosted the Cu content to 2% or so, I'd estimate. I was just wanting to see if the little torch would do it. Next go round I'll be a bit more scientific about it.

[nanuk]

Do you think Cu alloy is the next big thing in Tough Malleable boolits?

could be driven faster, with no stripping, yet hold together for improved terminal performance

[lwknight]

Fine stranded copper wire can be disolved in a lead alloy if some tin is presant.
It does make hard and tough all in one.

[madsenshooter]

nanuk, there was an alloy at one time known as Ideal #1, that contained 3% Cu. Used for high velocity rifle loads. http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=5599&forum_id=57&page=1 One of those, nothing new under the sun, things.

[nanuk]

madsenshooter: so the next new thing is just a "revisited"!

Hah.... I think that everything has been tried. the problem is no one is tellin'


kinda like those lube threads where someone askes if anyone has tried "X" and people come out of the woodwork and admit to it... Yet a search brings up nothing.

But the more questions get asked, the more the information gets out there!

[Armorer]

madsenshooter:
Hah.... I think that everything has been tried. the problem is no one is tellin'


I think it's probably because so very much has been tried by so many folks that some of it is forgotten til another poster raises the question and it jogs someones memory.
I am looking forward to trying this for some .30 loads though!
:cbpour:

Armorer

[nanuk]

So why did the Ideal #1 go away?

is it difficult to make?

What limits does anyone think it has?

[madsenshooter]

The guy at Rotometals told me it is difficult to get copper to alloy with lead, need a bit of tin too, otherwise the molten copper just sits on top of the lead. As the alloy I was using above already contained both tin and copper, the molten copper sat on top for a second or two, then bloop, disappeared into the melt. At some point I'll get some loaded to experiment with. I have previously used the 1/2% Cu babbitt to push a 169gr to 2168 out of my Krag with excellent accuracy. Might try 2200 or 2300 with the higher Cu see how it works. Where I'd really like to try it is with some hollowpointed boolits to see how expansion goes.

[badbob454]

i have some wierd babbit it came from pour in mold chipperblades for logging .. has @ 85% tin 13% antimony and silver 2% it is some hard stuff to melt i think the silver and antimony float on top while the tin melts a chunky floating blob on top and tin melted on the bottom of the pot skimmed off the tin and poured it in ingots , must be tin cause it was still molten at 425 degrees , next ill get some wheel weights and try to mix the dross off the top , antimony and silver .. and see if it will homogenize with the wheelweights . good stuff you have there ,,, madsenshooter ..

[madsenshooter]

I found this little thing online once, a guy had tried to cast silver bullets, his wife had written a werewolf book. Tonto did not do it for the Lone Ranger at the campfire, I can tell you that much. Guy had to go to a college chemistry lab, insulate his sprue plates to keep the pour from freezing, a real hassle. Told him if his wife writes a sequel, have the hero use a lathe to turn his bullets from silver rod. Besides the hollowpoint expansion, the reason I want such a hard alloy is my Obermeyer 6mm barrel. Bore diameter is .233", groove is .243", 5 lands, so each land is only .002. With normal alloys I can only get 1600fps before accuracy is not acceptable, thought the extra hardness might help. I'll know next week. If it doesn't work, it'll be a j-word only rifle and I'll go back to shooting my Krags with boolits. They're more fun to shoot anyway.

[nanuk]

I've read that to remove Cu, you heat the melt then cool to to melting point of lead, the Cu will lump up on the top... skim it off and you are good to go.

so, take that back to the beginning... keep the heat up enough and the Cu % can remain up there, controlled by the heat?

[madsenshooter]

It alloys with the other elements, if you dig around you'll find it forms a lattice network with the other elements in the alloy. I've cooled my pot a couple times, never saw anything coming to the top. I do cast hot. Hot enough that the melt remains liquid on the sprue plate for 10 seconds or so after pouring. Causes me all sorts of problems. Gotta be careful not to spill it off, really sharp corners on the bands that nearly duplicate the mold, even the machining marks you can see on the inside of the mold. Effects my groups too. Sometimes I take 10 shots and there's only one big hole, folks don't believe there's 10 in there!

Oh by the way, the super hard alloy did not help to increase the accuracy of the bullet coming out of the tight twist Obermeyer at higher velocity. Didn't hurt it any either, it was the same as it was with a softer alloy.

[bohica2xo]

So why did the Ideal #1 go away?

is it difficult to make?

What limits does anyone think it has?

#1 "went away" when Lyman introduced the 450 Lubrisizer. Even straight linotype will snap that handle off sometimes... LOL


The eco-mafia may be making wheelweights harder to find, but they have expanded the availability of alloying material.

so called "lead free" solder for instance. I just picked up a bunch of it that was not working out for the user. 96.5% Tin / 3.0% Silver / 0.5% Copper. They were torch soldering brass castings & copper tubes. What a mess. On thin sections it would just make a weld of sorts - 100% penetration of the solder joint. Alloying up the copper & zinc right in the torch flame.

Great stuff for beefing up a lead alloy however.

B.

[hydraulic]

Monotype has copper in it, but I don't recall how much, but I use it 1 to 3 parts of pure lead which is supposed to be about 12 bhn, the same as WW's. It sure makes good looking bullets.

[madsenshooter]

You probably mean foundry type, lots of folks call it mono, because it's single letters, like foundry. Foundry type had copper in it for the same reason I've added it to my boolit alloy, to make it harder, so that it would last for a lot of impressions and not smash as easily as lino and others.