Springfield .45 Officers Model barrel twist

[otterdriver]

Hello,
I recently acquired an H&R Trapdoor Springfield .45 Officers Model . I have no literature for it yet, and was just wondering if any of you guys out there might know the barrel twist .
Have been looking all over for that info, but so far unable to locate. (26 inch barrel).
If anyone out there has one of these rifles, perhaps tell me your favorite load/ boolit combo that you like . Am going to try the Lyman 457193 for starters, with 60g of Graf Bros. BP. Am a total newby, so any help greatly appreciated.

[NickSS]

I owned several H&R trapdoors and all of them had a 1 in 20 twist

[smkummer]

When you tire of cleaning BP, then use 14.5-15.0 grains of Unique with either the 457193 (405 grains with water dropped wheel weight) or 457192 (350 grains) for some real accurate and cheap shooting. I am not sizing my bullets as they are coming out at about .459. I am guessing these are getting close to 1300 FPS. I use a leather strap-on recoil pad and can shoot 50 rounds at a sitting with fun. Black powder around here is now $22 plus tax. I can buy Unique for $66 for 4 lbs. I don't resize my cases: just decap, prime, slightly flare, charge and seat/crimp. I think my used brass will outlast me. just my .02

[Eric Johanen]

I've had one of these for 10 + years. They are very accurate! Don't know if H&R made the barrels inhouse or contracted them out (maybe Douglas?) They are tight at .448/449 X .457 Bullet noses that fit my Shiloh 45-70 and 45-90 M74 Sharps are too large in dia to enter the muzzle on the H&R Officer's model. I use the Lyman 457193, 405 grain FN and the BACO 458500 grain RN Goverment. Sized to .457 (could use .458) Full length size and use no crimp. Shoot with Goex 2fg, Swiss 1&1/2fg, a duplex load of IMR 4759 and blackpowder or AA5744. With staight blackpowder loads start around 68-70 grains of powder. All work well. Blow tube or wipe between shots. Mounted a copy of the rear barrel sight (from Jeff's Outfitters) on mine and a Beech front sight. Cleaned up the trigger pull abit for a nice let off. Have used it for many years on whitetails and it brings home the meat! These are vey nice rifles and just plain shoot! Have shot it out to 300 yards with good results and it is just about perfect rifle for hunting and CAS side matches. Once hit a very small swinger at 300 yards offhand three times in a row with friends and quit right there. I used the tang sight and the pinhead on the Beech. ( did not push my luck!!)

[otterdriver]

Smkummer, Thanks man!! Cheap and accurate and fun is what matters right now!! I will keep this info tucked away . I very much appreciate your reply. Chris

[otterdriver]

Thank you Eric,
This is all very useful info for me. It will save me a lot of time, which is at a premium now with 4 growing kids. Question for you; my OM has a floppy trigger when unloaded at rest. When you pull the hammer back to the breech-opening position, the trigger firms up and does not wiggle. Then, when you pull back the hammer to the fire position, the trigger is floppy again. Is yours this same way, or might I have an issue with it? Think it would be a little noisy for deer hunting. I have still yet to even fire this weapon.(Damn!) (Anyone else have this happen?) Thank you for any feedback, Chris

[Eric Johanen]

Mine works the same. Bit of play with hammer at rest. No play at safe and breech opening notch and a bit of play at full cock. Never had a problem with deer using mine. If you think it could be a problem, just hold the trigger back when drawing the hammer to full cock and easing the sear into the full cock notch like with a loose trigger muzzle loader. Works just fine and is silent. Most likely a design quirk with the 3 notch tumbler. I'll have to check it on my original M1884 rifle that also has a 3 notch tumbler.

[otterdriver]

Thanks Eric'
This will ease my mind a little. Cant wait to get it out and try it! Chris

[Larry Gibson]

My Officer's Model H&R and LBH Carbine both have a 22" twist, just like the originals. However, as mentioned the bore size and groove depths are of correct dimensions for modern day 45-70 ammuntion. Mine run right at .458 groove depth which makes them compatable with commercila jacketed, commercial cast and all .45-70 moulds. I size all my cast bullets at .4615 because that's what I size the bullets for in my M1884 original barrel. I've shot a bunch of commercial and my own cast at .459 also and can't tell much difference, they all shoot very well indeed with smokeless or BP. So I go with the one H&I die in the 450 with my own BP lube for all my 45-70 TD loads.

Larry Gibson

[RMulhern]

When you tire of cleaning BP, then use 14.5-15.0 grains of Unique with either the 457193 (405 grains with water dropped wheel weight) or 457192 (350 grains) for some real accurate and cheap shooting. I am not sizing my bullets as they are coming out at about .459. I am guessing these are getting close to 1300 FPS. I use a leather strap-on recoil pad and can shoot 50 rounds at a sitting with fun. Black powder around here is now $22 plus tax. I can buy Unique for $66 for 4 lbs. I don't resize my cases: just decap, prime, slightly flare, charge and seat/crimp. I think my used brass will outlast me. just my .02

:killingpc:groner:[smilie=b::violin:

[John Boy]

Don't know if H&R made the barrels inhouse or contracted them out (maybe Douglas?) It's my understanding talking with H&R that they subcontracted Green Mountain barrels for their rifles

[Eric Johanen]

Thank's for the information. They really are great shooting barrels and mine is very accurate. The Officer's model makes a great deer rifle! Good sights and a little trigger tuning is really all they need. I did carefully file index marks on the slider of the rear tang sights to make adjustment a bit more repeatable! Now, I would not change a thing on my rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

Eric

I switched the grip adapter from the LBH to my OM and put a M1879 Type II rear sight and a Beech front sight on it which makes it pretty much like most actual M1873 OMs. Nice to have one that shoots so well and is shootable without having to consider the collector value. Original OMs are pretty spendy.

Larry Gibson

[otterdriver]

Larry,
Thank you for the great info. I am also interested in installing a rear sight on my OM, but need to know what would be appropriate for the era. You think a M1879 rear sight would be ok? If so, where can I find one? BTW, I lived many years in U.P., right over on 25th St W. My folks are still there. My sister attended Curtis, (1979). I went to Lakes. Also, did you make that leather sling yourself? I think I could definitely use one. Thanks again for all great information. Chris

[Larry Gibson]

otterdriver

I've seen original and photo's of original OMs with M1873 and M1879 rear sights. I understand some OMs had later model sights retrofitted as well. I'm not a collector and I'm sure the boys on trapdoorcollector.com could give the best information. Probably some OMs with Buffington M1884 sights as well. There is a "for sale" sight on that forum also and generally there are original sights available. I found both if mine, a R (Rifle) and a C (Carbine), at gunshows some years back. I think Pedersoli makes a very good repro of the M1873 rear sight. I'm not sure who I got the new repro Beech front sight from......sorry.

Which sight depends on which era of OM you want to replicate. Sometimes you hear that the C rear sight was preferred on OMs. That may have been the case if carbine ammo was to be used. I tried a C sight on my OM but found the R (Rifle) rear sight most closely matches replicated M1873 45-70 rifle loads, either BP or with smokeless when using the Lee 405HB or the Lyman 458124 bullets at 1300 -1350 fps. The M1884 rear sight (Buffington) is probably the best sight of the 3 to use for accuracy and target work but I prefered the M1879 because it is the sight used in A Course Of Instruction In Rifle Firing, by COL. T.T.S. Laidley, Ordance Department, U.S. Army 1879. That is one of the first marksmanship manuals the Army put out. A repro can be had from Cornell Publications, cornellpubs.com. The M1879 rear sight is also much simpler to use and just seems to me to be more "practical" on the OM.

The sling is a "slip on" made for muzzle loaders actually. It slips over the butt and laces on. Midway has them on page 199 of #34 catalog. Product #156-594 for $11.99. If there is a well stocked BP/muzzle loader shop in your area they probably have them also.

BTW; ones accuracy with the OM always improves if one says, just before you commence firing, in a loud and commanding voice; "Hostiles to the front!":drinks:

Larry Gibson

[otterdriver]

Larry,
I see that Pedersoli sells the M1879 rear sight. Will I also need to change out the front one to? I will keep the marksmanship trick in mind!! Also, have you had good results with the Lee 405g hollow based bullet? How about the 500g Govt 457125? Thanks, this is all grat info . Chris

[Eric Johanen]

I ordered my 1879 rear sight from Jeff's Outfitter's. It is windage adjustable and works well. He also had a Beech front sight but it is no longer listed. Montana Vintage Arms has a real nice Beech. I'm thinking of getting one with the small pinhead for my Shiloh Roughrider When I set it up for hunting. How does the Pedersoli pistol grip fit on the H&R rufle. Has anyone used it?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
I see that Pedersoli sells the M1879 rear sight. Will I also need to change out the front one to? I will keep the marksmanship trick in mind!! Also, have you had good results with the Lee 405g hollow based bullet? How about the 500g Govt 457125? Thanks, this is all grat info . Chris

You may need to change out the front sight to gat a desired zero/point of impact with the M1879 set at 100 yards. I have mine so the sight picture rests at 6 o'clock on the group at 100 yards with the M1879 sight set on 100 yards as opposed to the way high point of impact as the originals have.

Yes I do get very good results with the Lee 405HB. However the 458124 has a square base and is the more accurate of the 2. The difference is just about 1" at 100 yards, 1 1/2 moa vs 2 1/2 moa. With the GC'd 358483 and using the tang sight and cut one ragged hole of 1 - 1 1/4". That's with smokeless powder BTW. I only load a carbine 45-55 load with the 405HB using 4759/BP duplex load and it does 2 - 3 moa all day long. I have fired a little over 100 rounds in a day of that load in the LBH without cleaning and it maintained the same accuracy to the end. I've shot a few of my full 70 gr BP/500 gr M82 Rapine 460500 loads for my target M1884 TD out of the OM. Accurate but not fun at all. My most used cast bullet in the OM and LBH is the Rapine 460250. Mine drop at 275 gr and i load them over 8.5 gr Bullseye for 1050 fps and excellent accuracy out to 500+ yards.

Larry Gibson

[otterdriver]

Larry,
Wow, what great info. I will look into the Rapine molds, as I will still want to shoot a heavy bullet at some point. Do you have the original tang sight still on the OM, and if so did you scribe any indexes on it? Something else i would like to know is what you use to clean up your rifles after shooting. Technique, products, etc. would be most appreciated. Also, (whew!) do you drop-tube your BP loads, and whose brand do you prefer? Chris

[Larry Gibson]

otterdriver

Yes the tang sight is the H&R original. I used a fined checkering file to scribe the side of the lader and also the top of the windage slide. That works well enough and is pretty accurate once you get the ranges figured out. For precise and repeatable sight adjustments I use a RAY-VIN M1903 sight micrometer.

With smokeless loads I use Hoppe's #9 or old GI bore cleaner. I will run a wet patch on a .45 cal jag (a muzzle loader one) and then use a bronze brush ( a 50 cal ML brush works best) with solvent for about 10 strokes. I then use 3 patches to clean out the residue and a last patch with WD40 on it to remove the final bit of debri and solvent residue. I then use a wet patch with Kroil on it to protect the bore. The inside of the action and BB are also wiped off with a solvent patch, dried off and lightly coated with Kroil. A small paint brush with the bristles shortened works well cleaning out the action. I use a shaving brush with Kriol or Breakfree to lightly oil the outside metal parts.

With BP loads I use pretty much the same technique exept I use Windex with vineger as the solvent instead of Hoppe's or GI bore cleaner.

I do not drop tube the powder chargers. I built one and tested it every way from Sunday and found no improvent. I use a Lyman 55 to throw BP charges and use a compression die following Spence Wolf's instructions in his very use book; Loading cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine. If you don't have it you should get it at the45-70book.com. I had several very wonderful conversations with Spence before he died and his work on replicating original loads for the 45-70 in TDs is indespesible. My target loads do vary somewhat in that I NS the cases, size the bullets to fit the groove depth and do not heavily crimp. However, those are target loads not replicant service loads.

I use 70 gr Goex Cartridge Under either the 405HB or the 460500 bullets in NS'd W-W cases and as mentioned the drop tubed charges did nothing to improve anything when the compression die was used. Some claim the drop tube is necessary for best accuracy but I have not found that to be the case with my loading technique and rifles. With the duplex loads that I most often use there is little compression and no need for the drop tube either. Another benefit of the duplex load is no blow tube is needed either.

Larry Gibson

[otterdriver]

Larry,
I will pick up a copy of that book. I have heard of it, so definitely will get it. Sounds like you are sold on duplex loads. I had better wait on those till I get a little better set-up for reloading. Best I keep it simple at this juncture. How about your lead alloy/BHN ?
Also, Windex with vinegar is not available out here in Ellensburg. Is there a place out in UP that you can find it? I could send my Dad to get some, and I could pick it up next time I see him. Where do you like to shoot out there?

[Larry Gibson]

otterdriver

Ellensburg isn't that far out in the sticks[smilie=l:. I get mine at Safeway or Cosco. If you can't find it or can't get to Yakima to get some just get some vineger and add about 20% to water or regualr Windex. Water alone works really well but a lot also depends on the bullet lube used. If water soluable then water works really well. If wax or petrolem based (BP lubes with Vaseline) then sometimes water will not really get it all out. That's why I like the convenience of the Windex in the spray bottle with my 6/5 parts beeswax/olive oil bullet lube. Hoppe's BP solvent also works well as do most of the "moose milk" bore cleaning concoctions sold in muzzle loading sections/stores.

I simply like the convenience of the duplex loads. No blow tube needed, accuracy is always excellent even after 100+ shots without cleaning, fouling in the bore is kept to a minimum, etc. As mentioned I do use straight BP in my target loads for competition but the duplex loads, when I want the "ambiance" of BP, are most often used in the H&R TDs. Mostly I use smokeles loads in the H&R OM and LBH and BP loads in the M1884 target rifle.

Springfield and Frankford Armories used upwards of 12-1 alloy in the 45-70 bullets but settled on 16-1 as best for the 500 gr bullets. Spence found 20-1 to be best if the bullets are sized .459 and expected to "bump up" into the rifling, especially the 405HB with BP loads. I use 16-1 alloy for both bullets and do not depend on "bumping up" of the bullet. I size them at .4615 because the 460500 drops at that diameter and it fits well in the target TD. I use that sizing in the .458 groove depth barrels of the H&R OM and LBH also. Works fine in the .457 barrel of my Siamese Mauser just fine too. The Rapine 460210HB and the 460250s are sized .4615 but the 458124 and the 458483 both drop at .459 and are thus sized for the OM and LBH.

Larry Gibson

[otterdriver]

Larry, you are a wealth of information. I will stop heckling you at this point with any further nonsense from me!! You have given me enough to get a good start from here.
I have noticed that you contribute to other related websites. I see your name in many areas!! You are to be commended for all that you do to help encourage others in this field of interest. You are a real asset to the BPCR community. Will try to check-in again in the near future and solicit your opinion. Respectfully, Chris