Lube research proposal

[Molly]

Warning: Long post. VERY long post.

I’d like to propose we do some SERIOUS research on bullet lubes. All my life, I’ve read comments like “I mixed 4 parts of goop A with 3.75 parts of gloop B. This shot OK in my 30-06, but adding 2 ½ parts of gluck C took ¼ inch off my groups.” Don’t get me wrong: Some darn good lubes have been made just like that. But nobody in the world can tell you WHY they are good lubes.

Decades back, I kept hearing a lot of silly stories about lubes. Sometimes a bullet would run out of lube before it got out of the barrel, and would lead at the muzzle end. Sometimes a lube would work at low velocity, but at higher velocities, it couldn’t keep the lead from rubbing off on the bore because the bullet was too fast for it. One day, I decided to find out just what bullet lubes really did. I soaked a bore mop with a soft lube and thoroughly coated the bore with lube from one end to another before each shot. I KNOW my bullets didn’t “run out of lube”, but I got leading at high velocity just the same. That got me to looking at what caused leading. I scrubbed hard and soft alloys against clean steel at low speed (electric drill) and high speed (low angle ricochets). I got no leading that couldn’t be rubbed off with your finger. I tried the effect of low temperature (sub-freezing temperatures) and high temperatures (steel so hot I couldn’t hold it) with no change. In fact, absolutely nothing I could think of would produce leading under any conditions short of actually melting the lead. That produced strong adhesion as long as there was no lube present. Rubbing a thin layer of lube on the steel before heating the lead to melt it prevented adhesion quite nicely, thank you.

Before I retired, I was a paint chemist, and was necessarily familiar with a number of aspects that affect adhesion. One of them was the necessity of wetting before adhesion would occur, and I assume this holds true of the adhesion of lead in the bore as well as it does to paints. And wetting is entirely dependent on surface tension. This gave a good explanation of what my testing showed. The surface tension of almost everything is lower at higher temperatures. The surface tension of molten lead is quite low, which is why solder works. But the surface tension of most oils and waxes is even lower. A thin film of them will wet out steel and prevent soldering – or leading. I’m convinced this is how lubes prevent leading in the bore with most loads. But high pressure loads that etch the bullet could lower the surface tension of the molten lead droplets enough to overcome the film of lube, and let the lead adhere to the bore.

You’re welcome to disagree with my conclusions, but I’m satisfied that is how lubes prevent leading. But what ELSE do they do, and how? Col Harrison (who developed the 50/50 Beeswax / Alox 2138F bullet lube formula) noted that a great many materials would prevent leading, but would still give poor groups despite the nice clean bores. He noted that paraffin was particularly bad in this respect. He also noted that in regard to accurate shooting, “the action of bullet lubricants is unknown.” In other words, despite all his testing and his expertise, he still didn’t know why some lube gave good groups and some gave poor groups.

So I’m scratching my head and wondering if we could mount a concerted joint effort to try to find out just what it is about a lube that provides (or prevents) good groups.

If this catches on, I’m envisioning a two part effort: Some guys who are willing to test a lot of different materials as lubes, and some guys willing to try to characterize them to see if we can determine what properties can be associated with good groups and bad groups.

This isn’t going to take research laboratories and white lab coats. All it will take to separate good from bad is a few guys willing to hand lube about ten bullets and fire them for group from an accurate 30 caliber rifle. The tests will have to be from a clean, dry bore (using patches with lighter fluid until they come out clean?) with two or three fouling shots before going for group. Use the same alloy and a light powder charge you like for accuracy in that rifle. (We will be trying for maximum accuracy, not maximum velocities – at this point.)

The material used for a lube should be commercially pure if possible. It probably won’t be very useful to know that Stickypoo 1705 is a great lube if it has 30 different ingredients: We wouldn’t know which of the ingredients is doing the proper job. But something like straight Carnauba wax or beeswax or Vaseline could be tested fairly easily and their properties could be looked up. Go wild: Try some hard polyester resin, if you can find some. Spray the bullets with acrylic lacquer. Dip them in STP and shoot before it leaks past the gas check to wet your powder charge. Try momma’s cooking grease. Try some automotive axle grease. It doesn’t matter if you know someone else has used it in a lube formula. What we’ll be looking for is how it performs as a straight, unmodified material compared to the NRA 50/50 formula.

At the very least, it should be something that is reproducible, with properties that can be checked on an MSDS or by an inquiry to the manufacturer. If we find that a high percentage of the ‘good’ materials share a common property like hardness, polarity or acid number, and most of the bad ones don’t, we’ll have a real lead on materials to formulate more accurate lubes.

Once we have a list of promising ingredients, we can tabulate their properties. We’ll need volunteers who know something about Quality Control testing or has some chemistry background for this. If we can’t find data on surface tension, there are ways to compare them that don’t take a laboratory. Put a pea sized lump of each on a small sheet of clean steel and set it on a hotplate. When they both melt, the one with the lowest surface tension will push the other material away, even if it melts and spreads out first. We can look up other factors like degree of crystallinity and hardness at room temperature.

OK, there you have it. It would take some work for sure. And it might not come to anything but a lot of unproductive work in the end. But there’s a good chance that we could come up with a list of ingredients that says “This is better than that” when you’re mixing lubes. And it’s just remotely possible that we could come up with the best, most accurate bullet lube yet.

This is nothing that one person couldn't do by himself, given sufficient time. But I'm getting to be an old codger now, and may not have that kind of time. And many hands make light work. Is anyone interested enough to want to take me up on it?

[nanuk]

great idea!

:popcorn:

[Molly]

great idea!

:popcorn:

Thanks. So I can assume you're in? If so, give me a list of the materials you might like to test, so others won't be duplicating your work. Better still, just post a list here.

[cbrick]

Could be an interesting project for someone with enough time to devote to it.

I did a bit of a similiar lube test a few years back. I learned a few things, 1) I'm in complete agreement with Col Harrison of the NRA. A lube that prevents leading is really easy to make as long as the bullet fits the gun properly, most reasonable recipes will. 2) Variations in lube will effect accuracy. 3) The worst accuracy of all the lubes I made and tested had synthetic grease/oils in them. I had high hopes for the synthetics but they just didn't work for me.

Several days in a row at the range shooting 10 shot groups over the chrono at 100m and completely cleaning the bore before switching lubes and I spent more time scrubbing the bore than shooting.

The next thing I learned was that with the quality of several commercial lubes, aside from the fact that I did learn a thing or three, is that I didn't come up with the newest wonder lube, some were good and I wouldn't hesitate to use them should the need arise but in the end I am sticking with the commercial lubes.

If you have a leading or accuracy probem and your using one of the top commercial lubes such as Speed Green, LBT, Felix Lube or several others it isn't a lube problem.

For those that may wish to take on this project these articles on lubes will give you a solid foundation of what it is you want your lube to do and how.

From Ingot To Target, Cast Bullet Guide For Handgunners - Chapter 5 - Bullet Lube (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_5_Lubrication.htm) By Glen E. Fryxell

Lubricating Cast Bullets (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm) By Glen E. Fryxell

And here is a list and descrption of several possible lube ingrediants.

Bullet Lube Ingrediants (http://www.lasc.us/LubeIngredients.htm) By Rick Kelter

Hope this somehow helps, good luck.

Rick

[geargnasher]

I'm always up for a good study, just not sure how exactly you want to go about this.

There are some issues to be considered, also. One of the top three lubes I've ever used contains some "proprietary" ingredients that, if known, might cost a man and his family some of their livelyhood. I know what's in it, and can buy it myself locally, and would consider it a top five competitor for all-time best lubricity additive in lube. Can't tell about it, though. Alox 2138F has been discontinued by the company that bought the product line, as far as I've been able to tell, so that part kinda sucks.

I have my own list of standard "possibles" for lube ingredients, I'll share that as food for thought, these are the basics, if you think of traditional lubes that are mixtures of basically bases (for physical application and delivery) and lubricity additives for film lubrication.

Carriers: Beeswax. Micro-crystalline wax with high scorch resistance and extremely large capacity for oil absorption.
Micro-crystalline wax: 357Maximum's favorite base, there are many varieties, but they have the same essential properties with regard to boolit lube, and those properties are notably different from macro-crystalline wax, commonly known as paraffin like Gulf Canning Wax or candle paraffin.
Soy "wax": Hydrogenated soybean oil makes a stable, fluffy molecule we call wax. It has good properties as boolit lube in that it is actually a lubricant and carrier all in itself. Its only downfalls are that soybean oil isn't a premium metal-to-metal lubricant by itself and thus needs additional lubricants added, and it has a low tolerance for heat, which makes it a tedious hot-weather lube base. I'm sure these problems can be overcome and would be worth doing if some effort was put into it.
Soap: Yes, soap. some people have used ordinary bar soap as a base for boolit lube, including me. The jury is still out, I find it hydroscopic as heck and inconsistent in hot weather, but it makes for clean shooting, go figure!
Silicone grease: Not really any such thing, since silicone greases are merely dimethylpolysiloxane oil thickened with fumed (or pyrogenic, if you prefer) silica, which is slightly abrasive. I would pursue this as possibly the most temperature-stable base lube one could get, but I must have had a hangover the day the units of measure of abrasiveness and their meanings were discussed in ME 413 class. In other words, it might make a great lube, but I don't know if the fumed silica is more abrasive than a paper patch, or is about like moist graphite. Many synthetic oils will blend with silicone oil in the thickened "grease" state, so the relatively poor metal-lubricating qualities of silicone oils could be compensated for. Perhaps a quality, full-synthetic oil with a good dispersant and surfacant package and good viscocity modifiers could be thickened to a plastic-like state using nothing more than fumed silica of the sort used for thickening milkshakes to make a superior lube.

Lubricants Mineral-based oils, organic base. Mineral oils, synthetic polymer base. Metal soap greases, such as lithium, molybdenum disulfide, et cetera. Other natural, non-petroleum oils like Castor bean oil, peanut, olive, canola, jojoba, flax seed, ad nauseum. Silicone oil. Animal fat/oil, such as bear, sheep, racoon, cow, and pig. I'm sure I've missed a few.

Binding agents and viscocity modifiers: Stearates, particularly sodium stearate and stearic acid, palm stearine, Sasol (synthetic hyrocarbon wax with very high melt point, a pigment dispersant), phospates ( particularly sodium-compounded emulsifiers, strong bases for pH correction), carnauba wax, japan wax, vaseline, Vybar (plasticiser), and eye of newt (for its magical accuracy properties, and to humour those who've read this far).

Other stuff: Here's where breakthroughs and dismal failures occur, usually with the "what if I add this" wacko mentality that I often have at two in the morning: Graphite or Mica. Paper slurry, ordinary flour or black pepper (think: Ballistic Stop Leak to borrow Glen Fryxell's term), Welding anti-spatter dip. Organic Zinc compounds. Bar's Leaks pellets. Aluma-Seal. Powder coat paint. K&W Copper Coat gasket sealant. Powdered rosin. Really fine sawdust. Powdered Teflon. Powdered HDPE. I know solid additives have been shown to be more of a hindrance than a help, but that was 60 years ago. Before Teflon was invented. Just some ideas.

Then the philosophy begins. What do we want lube to do? I want it to go on the boolit easily, stay put in the groove when loaded in a cartridge and stored near my butt on a long walk or under the seat of my truck in the Texas Summer, (or Texas Winter, whichever), I want it to help seal the boolit in the bore on a microscopic level so I don't get gas-cutting as 2500 fps, I want it to wet the bore consistenly and evenly, leaving very little ash and an EVEN, consistent coating of residue from first shot cold barrel to last shot sizzling barrel, then I want the lube to evaporate or jettison completely the instant it reaches atmospheric pressure again at the muzzle so it won't cling to the boolit unevenly and disrupt the boolit's center of gravity or axis of rotation, and lastly I'd like it to be in a pretty color and smell like roses, even when fired. That's not so bad, is it?

So how we gonna do this? You'd be hard pressed to beat the NRA formula, or Felix lube, or Speed Green if you do everything else right, but there is a whole lot of room for improvement as far as temperature range of storage and use, and accuracy consistency, not to mention bor conditioning.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Could be an interesting project for someone with enough time to devote to it.

I did a bit of a similiar lube test a few years back. I learned a few things, 1) I'm in complete agreement with Col Harrison of the NRA. A lube that prevents leading is really easy to make as long as the bullet fits the gun properly, most reasonable recipes will. 2) Variations in lube will Affect accuracy. 3) The worst accuracy of all the lubes I made and tested had synthetic grease/oils in them. I had high hopes for the synthetics but they just didn't work for me.

Several days in a row at the range shooting 10 shot groups over the chrono at 100m and completely cleaning the bore before switching lubes and I spent more time scrubbing the bore than shooting.

The next thing I learned was that with the quality of several commercial lubes, aside from the fact that I did learn a thing or three, is that I didn't come up with the newest wonder lube, some were good and I wouldn't hesitate to use them should the need arise but in the end I am sticking with the commercial lubes.

If you have a leading or accuracy probem and your using one of the top commercial lubes such as Speed Green, LBT, Felix Lube or several others it isn't a lube problem.

For those that may wish to take on this project these articles on lubes will give you a solid foundation of what it is you want your lube to do and how.

From Ingot To Target, Cast Bullet Guide For Handgunners - Chapter 5 - Bullet Lube (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_5_Lubrication.htm) By Glen E. Fryxell

Lubricating Cast Bullets (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm) By Glen E. Fryxell

And here is a list of several possible lube ingrediants.

Bullet Lube Ingrediants (http://www.lasc.us/LubeIngredients.htm) By Rick Kelter

Hope this somehow helps, good luck.

Rick

Thanks for sharing that, Rick, those articles about cover the gamut of conventional lube thinking. My experiences with synthetics have been mixed, but not entirely negative. I think the future lies there, it's just figuring out how to make them give consistent performance. I highlighed the things I've learned that mirror your comments, too, hope you don't mind.

Gear

[Molly]

I'm always up for a good study, just not sure how exactly you want to go about this.

There are some issues to be considered, also. One of the top three lubes I've ever used contains some "proprietary" ingredients that, if known, might cost a man and his family some of their livelyhood. I know what's in it, and can buy it myself locally, and would consider it a top five competitor for all-time best lubricity additive in lube. Can't tell about it, though. Alox 2138F has been discontinued by the company that bought the product line, as far as I've been able to tell, so that part kinda sucks.

I have my own list of standard "possibles" for lube ingredients, I'll share that as food for thought, these are the basics, if you think of traditional lubes that are mixtures of basically bases (for physical application and delivery) and lubricity additives for film lubrication.

Carriers: Beeswax. Micro-crystalline wax with high scorch resistance and extremely large capacity for oil absorption.
Micro-crystalline wax: 357Maximum's favorite base, there are many varieties, but they have the same essential properties with regard to boolit lube, and those properties are notably different from macro-crystalline wax, commonly known as paraffin like Gulf Canning Wax or candle paraffin.
Soy "wax": Hydrogenated soybean oil makes a stable, fluffy molecule we call wax. It has good properties as boolit lube in that it is actually a lubricant and carrier all in itself. Its only downfalls are that soybean oil isn't a premium metal-to-metal lubricant by itself and thus needs additional lubricants added, and it has a low tolerance for heat, which makes it a tedious hot-weather lube base. I'm sure these problems can be overcome and would be worth doing if some effort was put into it.
Soap: Yes, soap. some people have used ordinary bar soap as a base for boolit lube, including me. The jury is still out, I find it hydroscopic as heck and inconsistent in hot weather, but it makes for clean shooting, go figure!
Silicone grease: Not really any such thing, since silicone greases are merely dimethylpolysiloxane oil thickened with fumed (or pyrogenic, if you prefer) silica, which is slightly abrasive. I would pursue this as possibly the most temperature-stable base lube one could get, but I must have had a hangover the day the units of measure of abrasiveness and their meanings were discussed in ME 413 class. In other words, it might make a great lube, but I don't know if the fumed silica is more abrasive than a paper patch, or is about like moist graphite. Many synthetic oils will blend with silicone oil in the thickened "grease" state, so the relatively poor metal-lubricating qualities of silicone oils could be compensated for. Perhaps a quality, full-synthetic oil with a good dispersant and surfacant package and good viscocity modifiers could be thickened to a plastic-like state using nothing more than fumed silica of the sort used for thickening milkshakes to make a superior lube.

Lubricants Mineral-based oils, organic base. Mineral oils, synthetic polymer base. Metal soap greases, such as lithium, molybdenum disulfide, et cetera. Other natural, non-petroleum oils like Castor bean oil, peanut, olive, canola, jojoba, flax seed, ad nauseum. Silicone oil. Animal fat/oil, such as bear, sheep, racoon, cow, and pig. I'm sure I've missed a few.

Binding agents and viscocity modifiers: Stearates, particularly sodium stearate and stearic acid, palm stearine, Sasol (synthetic hyrocarbon wax with very high melt point, a pigment dispersant), phospates ( particularly sodium-compounded emulsifiers, strong bases for pH correction), carnauba wax, japan wax, vaseline, Vybar (plasticiser), and eye of newt (for its magical accuracy properties, and to humour those who've read this far).

Other stuff: Here's where breakthroughs and dismal failures occur, usually with the "what if I add this" wacko mentality that I often have at two in the morning: Graphite or Mica. Paper slurry, ordinary flour or black pepper (think: Ballistic Stop Leak to borrow Glen Fryxell's term), Welding anti-spatter dip. Organic Zinc compounds. Bar's Leaks pellets. Aluma-Seal. Powder coat paint. K&W Copper Coat gasket sealant. Powdered rosin. Really fine sawdust. Powdered Teflon. Powdered HDPE. I know solid additives have been shown to be more of a hindrance than a help, but that was 60 years ago. Before Teflon was invented. Just some ideas.

Then the philosophy begins. What do we want lube to do? I want it to go on the boolit easily, stay put in the groove when loaded in a cartridge and stored near my butt on a long walk or under the seat of my truck in the Texas Summer, (or Texas Winter, whichever), I want it to help seal the boolit in the bore on a microscopic level so I don't get gas-cutting as 2500 fps, I want it to wet the bore consistenly and evenly, leaving very little ash and an EVEN, consistent coating of residue from first shot cold barrel to last shot sizzling barrel, then I want the lube to evaporate or jettison completely the instant it reaches atmospheric pressure again at the muzzle so it won't cling to the boolit unevenly and disrupt the boolit's center of gravity or axis of rotation, and lastly I'd like it to be in a pretty color and smell like roses, even when fired. That's not so bad, is it?

So how we gonna do this? You'd be hard pressed to beat the NRA formula, or Felix lube, or Speed Green if you do everything else right, but there is a whole lot of room for improvement as far as temperature range of storage and use, and accuracy consistency, not to mention bor conditioning.

Gear

Hi gear. Nice to see you again. How's that rifle working out? Got it finished yet?

Great list of ingredients. I'm assuming you have been down this road and could save a lot of work if you have the notion. Most of them I know, but you've added quite a few that I haven't used or even heard of. One that you've missed is polyester resins. I know that some low molecular weight polyesters find use in pretty sophisticated lubricants, but I don't know what function they serve. I think harrison tested and discarded powdered PTFE. I know he hit quite a few of the things you list. I'm going to have to go back and re-read his articles. I've got saved copies around here somewhere.

You make some excellent points about other desirable lube properties, but you're ahead of what I hope for from this project - if it generates enough active participants. I'm just looking to separate the good from the bad as far as ingredients go. Blending the good ones for the rest of the properties will be a later step.

(BTW, I've posted the formula for Alox 2138f elsewhere if you're interested. I used to have a good professional relationship with the Alox tech staff, and the formula is correct. Alox Corporation no longer exists, and the people who bought them out has no interest, so I had no qualms about passing the information along.)

[bruce381]

I do not know what to offer other than 35 years Lube mfg so maybe I can find stuff for you or offer advice as to what lube additve does what.

I knew the alox group now lubrizol. Anyway with about a gazilion things to try where to start? and how to quantify what works in what?

You guys know more about boolit lubes than me but the caliber, load, size, hardness etc complicate any testing?

Should this start with one caliber, one alloy made up in same batch maybe send out 100 to a few guys to size and load with whatever lube?

[bruce381]

"fumed silica of the sort used for thickening milkshakes"

Now that has to taste pretty bad i'd guess I have some at work (silica) think correct term is fused silica if anyone wants some.

[Lloyd Smale]

its going to be tough to get good results. There will be the fact that some guys just shoot better then others and some just dont shoot a gun up to its real capablitiys. Then there will be the variable in how well the bullet is casted. It would have to be the exact same bullet Then the bullet to work its best must be sized to fit that exact gun and the guns would have to be near identical. No two guns i have like the same bullet and load and many even prefer certain lubes over others. Bottom line is that these same questions have been asked for about a 100 years and id have to guess that if there was a real way to get the correct answer it would have been done allready. I guess to me anyway i dont really care. If a lube doesnt lead and gives me good accuracy its a good lube and i use it. If it fails in leading (which rarely happens) or in accuracy i just dont use it again. Bottom line is about any bullet lube works for low velocity handgun shooting and thats what i mostly do. the high velocity rifle shooters probably have more of an interest in getting this technical.

[Molly]

"fumed silica of the sort used for thickening milkshakes"

Now that has to taste pretty bad i'd guess I have some at work (silica) think correct term is fused silica if anyone wants some.

No, the correct terminology is 'fumed amorphous silica'. And even that's just a general term, like 'automobile'. There's a whole world of fumed silicas. They get a LOT of play in industry because they won't cause silicosis like crystalline silica.

[Molly]

You know fellows, I believe I failed to give this enough thought. I knew about a lot of the factors you boys have brought up (but not all), but I guess I didn't think about them enough to develop the idea and realize just how complex it was going to get. Geometric progressions turn into giants in a hurry.

So I'm going to withdraw the suggestion. I think the basic idea is good, but it's kinda like counting a big dump truck full of pennies: Simple enough basic concept, but it's gonna take a long time, and has a lot of potential for honest mistakes.

[Doc Highwall]

Well the good news is better weather is coming and I and others here are waiting for more test results with Bull-Shops NASA lube and black powder at high temperatures and low humidity. Dan made it for black powder and I have been using it with AA5744 in my 308 Winchester with great accuracy.

[cajun shooter]

Molly, While the idea is good the reality of doing it in a controlled manner with results that may be referred to as standards will not work. Any thing that is done to show the best of anything has to be performed under lab like controlled conditions. You can't have a person in Utah mix up some lube even with directions and try them lubes and bullets compared with what I do in Louisiana. Even the shipment would not be complete as you have different shooters. I and a friend could set up my Ransom rest and receive different results. Most all the figures would be ballpark and if you notice every time a new shooter ask what is the best lube to use. He receives several different answers while some say that what was found to be the best is not. I myself make a lube that I use along with the NASA Lube from Bullshop. Both work very well and the BP lube that was once sold by Lars was just as good. This applies to my guns and my type of shooting only. That to me is what makes our sport something you may persue all your life and never become bored. Trying to work out all the varibles keeps you busy for a lifetime.

[runfiverun]

some of us will use some ingredients for different reasons.
glenn fryxell uses moly grease as a lube mixed with b-wax, his lube in this case is the lithium stearate grease which the moly is suspended in.
i use moly also but mine comes in solid stick form and i use it because the moly metal soaks up heat and retains it softening the lube before the round is fired.
my final viscosity is probably much thicker than his is, and i use modifiers to have a more flexible carrier base of b-wax and soft candle wax so it bends and flexes, with strands as it tears.
this insures that if any lube comes from the groove it all comes off.
so maybe i wasn't making a better lube.
i may have been modifying how the lube was being released at exit.
and helping it work better by keeping the lube temp at a constant from the case down the bbl after the first shot.

so many of our lubes are more alike than we think, just made from whats convenient to us.
or available locally.
or free. [from work]
or on sale. which reminds me, after easter, our local store has the candles i like on sale cheap.

to do something like this.
you would have to have willing participants shooting much the same guns boolits and loads.
with a comparison made between carriers, lubes, and modifiers.
a lube with a good carrier and lube might not make the grade untill the viscosity has been changed slightly to eliminate that last bit of wash near the muzzle.
even if that means giving up a bit of accuracy.
the next guy might want every bit of accuracy and will put up with grey wash all down the bbl to get it as long as he sees no fouling.

[Doc Highwall]

I will admit I have not shot a lot of different lubes partly because of shooting high power and small bore. Years ago I use Moly NLG2 wheel bearing grease/Vaseline/Paraffin in equal parts for silhouette shooting and it worked good. When I joined this great family of cast bullet shooters I decided to try Bull-Shops NASA lube that was made for black powder and smokeless powder to compare against SPG lube. Well I have not shot the black powder for a while because of health problems and other things going on that I have concentrated on smokeless powder only. I have bought some of Lars carnauba red 2700 lube to try with my higher velocity loads in 223 and my Palma rifle and that will come later this summer hopefully. I am still working on my floating expander's for my 308 Winchester so I can do my test with both bullet diameter and bullet press fit and have only one variable at a time instead of two variables with the NASA lube. When this test is done I will shoot it with both the NASA lube and Lars carnauba red to have a comparison between the two of them. I am also interested in the new lube that Dan is working on called Lotack (not sure of the spelling) that is harder then his speed-green.