Is high pressure necessary for accuracy with smokeless paper patched?

[leftiye]

Would a light boolit paper patched (313 grains) seal the bore well if not driven with a lot of force in a 45-70?

I am probly not going to shoot my NEF 45-70 Handi rifle much if the experience is too painful. So I'm looking at lighter boolits and those not driven at max velocities. What say you? I can always retreat to a smaller bore with the same weight boolit and hit it harder if that is necessary.

Also, the NEF chamber has no freebore, and abrupt rifling leade. I think I've got a throating reamer and should mitigate the angle of the leade (I don't think I want to freebore it and get more cartridge capacity as a result). Agree?

[docone31]

When I fire wrapped castings, I use full tilt loads.
I use the start load data for the weight I am firing.
I have gotten results that folks here seem to chase. Mayhaps it is the load as well as the fit in the bore. I am not certain.
In other words, say for example 405gn.
You would wrap 405gn 45/70 sized to .002 over bore diameter. I would then load with perhaps Springfield load data for the 405gn casting.
I suspect that would be a good load for that diameter casting. I wrap for the smaller sizes. .308, and .303 Brit. To date, I have never gone less than start load data for the grain weight on each one.
When I wrap, I treat the wrapped casting like it is a jacketed. I have not found freebore, or leade to be of issue. Perhaps with Black Powder that might be the issue, but I have not found it so, especially with my .308 Palma rifle. That has a match chamber and it really shines with patched loads!
Fires 1MilDot high compared to jacketed loads.
I also put Field pads on all my rifles. With two torn rotator cuffs, I find recoil is not really my friend. Before my shoulders started acting up, I could fire my .375 H&H Ruger #1 Tropical for at least 100rds before I put it down. Next day would be sore, but nothing like recoil treats me today. Today, it actually puts my arms to sleep on only a few shots. That numbness lingers for a long time. I will be firing again, a month later, and my arms will still be tingly.
I do know what you mean about recoil.
I have not found patched loads to be an issue though. I also get a lot of reloads per case. Much more than jacketeds.
My .303 British, I have on some 20+ loads with no separation evidence.
I also like surplus 4895. Like Varget. Load data for 4064 and my rifles like it.
I also wrap my patches soaking wet. They roll damp and air dry. The patches dry very hard and tight.
Hope that helps some.
If not, it is reading.
A light weight casting should be no different than an heavy weight casting. The bore and sizeing remains the same.
I also use water dropped wheel weight alloy, or dominant zinc alloy for patching.

[303Guy]

I'm relatively young and pretty fit but I don't like recoil one itty little bit! (My two-groove is my shining moment as I got the suppressor-break just right - zilch recoil from fairly warm 303 Brit loads!) Anyway, from what I can deduce it would seem that your 45-70 would work best with patched to bore plus a tad with pure lead and a full black powder charge. That's not what you want so the trick would be to try to emulate that black powder effect. Peak and sustained pressure early on in the bore is likely what makes those boolits work for BP so if a powder and charge could be found that has enough time delay before a healthy peak pressure which then falls off quickly so as not to 'kick so hard' might work. I am speculating here and I take that liberty because I have been wondering for quite a while what it is about BP that makes them work so well. I would imagine a shotgun type of load should work and that requires a thick wad between boolit and powder. Just thinking out loud.:rolleyes:

[pdawg_shooter]

Necessary? No. Attainable? Yes. The main reason to patch is to be able to achieve jacketed velocity and accuracy, with NO leading. If I wanted to settle for bare cast performance I would NOT patch. It is time consuming, But in rifles it is well worth the effort. I use a powder that will give me near or at 100% load density to achieve the velocity I want. The slower powder gives the bullet a gentler push and less distortion. Combine this with the support afforded by the paper and you have a near perfect bullet exiting the muzzle. Providing you casted a good bullet to start with. This means accuracy at the velocity needed to get the job done.

[Nobade]

I'm with Pdawg here, the only reason to patch for the 45-70 is if you are going for full tilt loads with soft lead. That 313 loaded over Unique or Trailboss or something similar is going to be hardly any recoil and still as powerful as a magnum handgun. No need to patch those, lubed 20:1 booilts work well there.

[leftiye]

Yeah, Since yesterday, it did occur to me that grease grooved boolits would shoot as well at those lighter velocities, so why patch. Especially with that light gun, I think I'll find another caliber to PP. .375 H&H maybe?

[DIRT Farmer]

You have got me wondering there, if I can find some paper close enough, I think I will cast some Lyman 451-114s from WW and try them in one of my 45-70s. They should be close wraped dry 24 lb copier paper.

[303Guy]

I see no reason not to try paper patching with lower velocity loads in your 45-70. True, grease groove will work just fine but then you miss out on the fun and satisfaction paper patching. Besides, it'll give you something to report back to us on!:-D
And us to follow with. :drinks: (Not everone sits and watches TV in the evenings - some of us check to see what other folks have been up to with there guns.:mrgreen:)

[gerrycan]

Hi all,
I p/patch for my Martini Henry[ now in 45/70] I start with Lee 405 [430] and patch 2wraps of grocery store receipt paper [wet] and it shoots a bomb with 12 grs Trailboss or black powder.Gerry.

[pdawg_shooter]

You have got me wondering there, if I can find some paper close enough, I think I will cast some Lyman 451-114s from WW and try them in one of my 45-70s. They should be close wraped dry 24 lb copier paper.

I use the same bullet wrapped with 16# paper. Gives me a dried diameter of .461. Lube and run through a .459 die works perfect. 24# will increase your diameter about .469, a bit much for most barrels.

[MBTcustom]

I agree, paper patch is a pain! the only reason I do it is its the only way to get speed above 1800 without having to scrape lead out of the barrel. It is easier on the shoulder and much easier to just lube the boolits and shoot em low speed.
On the other hand, If you are going to pp your boolits, I believe that it is very important that you do push them fast in order to consistently shed the patch. I could be wrong but it seems that accuracy suffers from needlessly patched boolits.

[303Guy]

... it seems that accuracy suffers from needlessly patched boolits.I suspect so. I suspect a gun shot with PPCBoos often enough will shott better with plain cast due to the polising effect of the paper. One day I intend to paper-lapp one of my rifle bores then switch to plain cast in it for higher volume shooting. Paper patching will never make it in mass production.:roll: But for hunting use they can't be beat! (Just patched another one!)

[Bullshop]

"" I agree, paper patch is a pain! the only reason I do it is its the only way to get speed above 1800 without having to scrape lead out of the barrel. ""

Why on earth do you think that? There are a number of members here at CB that regularly shoot GG boolits in the area of 2500 fps with excellent accuracy and no leading.
We had a postal match over the winter and several contestants reported velocities nearing 2500 fps and some of these shooter group average was less than .5 moa.
I averaged all targets from all contestants and the average was about .75 moa
With the super lubes we have today along with a better understanding of how a boolit should fit a throat 2500 fps with good accuracy and no leading is not at all difficult .

[303Guy]

Holy Cow! Bullshop. Do you have knowledge of caliber, boolit weights and twist rates? I'm not going to stop doing paper patching cause it's too much fun and besides, no other boolit will work in some of my rusty bores. However, I do have one or two mint bored rifles that could do well with a little exersize at a range.

[nanuk]

"" I agree, paper patch is a pain! the only reason I do it is its the only way to get speed above 1800 without having to scrape lead out of the barrel. ""

Why on earth do you think that? There are a number of members here at CB that regularly shoot GG boolits in the area of 2500 fps with excellent accuracy and no leading.
We had a postal match over the winter and several contestants reported velocities nearing 2500 fps and some of these shooter group average was less than .5 moa.
I averaged all targets from all contestants and the average was about .75 moa
With the super lubes we have today along with a better understanding of how a boolit should fit a throat 2500 fps with good accuracy and no leading is not at all difficult .

Now THAT is some fine performance!

[MBTcustom]

That is the first time I have ever heard of pushing GCs that fast. I have shot many many gc ww through my 30-30 with alox, rcbs, LLalox, If I ever got close to 2000 seems like I started leading the barrel (of course it was a micro-groove)
I just researched this subject a couple of months ago and every source of info I found "including lymans reloading book from the 70's" said that GCs cant be pushed faster than 1800. Im not douting what you say, I just want to know some examples of these "modern lubes". Maybe I should revisit the ol GC and see what I get now.

[pdawg_shooter]

This is an early post of mine;

Back in November of 08 I decided to develop a sub-MOA, 3000fps load for a 30 caliber rifle. It took awhile, but I believe I have “got er done.”
The Rifle.
In order to get the velocity I wanted with this weight bullet I chose a 300RUM in a Savage model 116. It is stainless with a laminated stock. It came from the factory with pillar bedding, and I added glass behind the recoil lug, and under the front receiver ring and tang. I topped it with a Weaver T15 for this test. This rifle will group ¾ to 7/8 with good, jacketed bullet loads.

The Bullet.
The most consistently accurate 30cal bullet I cast is the Lyman 311284 so this is the one I worked with. The alloy is a mix of WW and Linotype. I added lino. until an air cooled bullet tested 16.0 BHN on my Lee tester. The bullet was then sized .3015 with a push through die. This gave me full length bearing surface. The bullet was then patched with 16# green bar printer paper and allowed to dry overnight. I then clipped the tail, lubed with White Label BAC and run through a .310 push through die. This left the bullet .311 and ready to load. The finish weight, with patch, was 202gr.

The Brass.
I used new Remington brass. I full length sized them and sorted by weight allowing no more than +/- 1%. It was then trimmed to length, outside neck turned to .012 thickness, the primer pocket reamed to a uniform depth, flash holes drilled uniform and deburred. I then loaded with a 180gr. Core Lock and H4831 to fireform. The test load was then loaded in UNSIZED brass. I tried H1000, Retumbo, and finally settled on reloader25. The starting load was 88.0 and I worked up to 93.0. This gave me 3069 with no signs of excess pressure. Oh yes, the primer was a Federal 215. The bullets were seated about ¼ inch into the case and finished seating when the bolt was closed. This gave me an OAL of 3.670.

The Test.
Testing was done over 2 days. Shots were fired over a bench rest with a windage and elevation adjustable front rest and “bunny ear” rear rest. Twenty 3 shot groups were fired allowing the barrel to cool completely. The smallest group measured .760 and the largest was 1.140. The overall average figured out to .992. Mission accomplished, but just barely. So what good is this load? Not much unless you like poking holes in paper. Next step will be to neck size, seat to correct OAL and see how they shoot. Might make a good hunting load that way.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

That is the first time I have ever heard of pushing GCs that fast. I have shot many many gc ww through my 30-30 with alox, rcbs, LLalox, If I ever got close to 2000 seems like I started leading the barrel (of course it was a micro-groove)
I just researched this subject a couple of months ago and every source of info I found "including lymans reloading book from the 70's" said that GCs cant be pushed faster than 1800. Im not douting what you say, I just want to know some examples of these "modern lubes". Maybe I should revisit the ol GC and see what I get now.

When I first started casting in the 70's I used straight WW for both pistols and rifles. With the lubes of that era leading was almost guaranteed when you started hitting them fairly hard with the pistol powders recommended in the Lyman Manual #44?, maybe #45, I can't remember. I also sized 30 calibers to .308 as recommended in the manual. I had just bought a brand new Marlin blued 336 30-30 in 1970. I did not have access to a chronograph and "guesstimated" velocities with my rifles based on drop at 200yds with a 100 yd zero. That Marlin ran into the same barrier velocity as yours. My guess was I had not even achieved 1500fps using that estimation. Sometime later I pretty much standardized my alloy as the Lyman #2 recipe for just about anything I shoot and still do to this day. Jumping to the present, we now have so much more knowledge and the ability to share same that a new caster or even a seasoned old veteran could/can learn more in a single day that we could in many years of casting back then. I believe many gave up casting for rifles back then due to the difficulties encountered. It wasn't an option for me, shoot cast or don't shoot much at all due to financial reasons. We now use the powders that were"taboo" back then and with much greater success. Lubes have much improved as well. I have quite a few different 30's now and achieve 2000+(chrono'd) with Lyman #2 and several different lubes with all but one. That happens to be a stainless steel 336 30-30 I bought about a half dozen yrs ago. It does shoot PP very well so it redeemed its self and perhaps it will shoot cast better after a steady diet of PP for awhile more. I found this forum last October and have learned (and applied that knowledge to my loading)more than all my other years combined. My other 30-30 is still the same one I bought in 1970 and it shoots 31-32 grains of BLC-2 at 1950-2050fps with absolutely no leading I can find with a Lee 180RN and one of Ranch Dogs 165 molds. They are sized to the as dropped diameter to seat the check and lubed with some(very old) RCBS green lube and then finger lubed with either 45/45/10 alox or straight alox up to the crimp groove. Ranch dogs TL mold bullets just get the check seated and then double finger lubed with alox. I've also used 748,4895 and 4064 in the 30-30's with good results.
Good luck.
Mike

[Bullshop]

I dont have time to track down examples of other folks success with high velocity and GG boolits. The one example I gave about the 22 cal only postal match is available for viewing in the competition and get together forum. It will be handy because all the load data is detailed with each entry.
If I were you and was open minded enough to want to know for sure and to search it out I would start a new thread that asks the question, "What is the top velocity for GG boolits with good accuracy and no leading".
With that the answers will come to you and you will not have to spend time searching. If at present your understanding is limited to 1970's knowledge you will be very surprised at what you will learn.
In all honesty your 1970's information is out dated and obsolete.

[MBTcustom]

Sweeeeet:bigsmyl2:

[Bullshop]

The collective knowledge of this site has raised the performance bar many times and by a good margin since those 1970 books were published. Its all here if you just search for it.

[nanuk]

the NRA handloading book I have makes a comment that with the slower powders (4350, 4831) leading is non-existant at HV

[303Guy]

I shall definately be revisiting the cast boolits for my 1902 LE MKI. She has always been an accurate rifle with her new No.4 barrel. Paper patching may be required to polish the last half of the bore. Cordite machinegun rounds polised the first half and made the bore slightly tapered. Perfect! I have the mold all ready but sans-gas check. The lube pot is still loaded too! Mmmm.... I'll have to invent a use for her. [smilie=1:

[pdawg_shooter]

the NRA handloading book I have makes a comment that with the slower powders (4350, 4831) leading is non-existant at HV

I always get my best accuracy with a powder slow enough to give as close as possible to 100% load density. I think it may have something to do with the slower pressure rise causing less deformation of the bullet under acceleration.

[nanuk]

Pdawg, I think you are on the right track there.

they never explained it, just said it was so!

[goofyoldfart]

Ok , I see a lot of people saying "GG" and am sorta wondering what this is. PB is plain base and GC is gas check, soooo what is GG? Just wondering what I missed in the last couple, three decades or so. God bless to all.

Goofy/Goofyoldfart/GOF:D:coffeecom

[303Guy]

Grease Groove. It's a misnomer on my part as any cast lead boolit is of interest. I wasn't able to edit the thread heading once it was underway. So, Cast Boolit is what was meant. (Mine are smooth sided so are not going to be grease grooved).:lovebooli