1903 Springfield, barrel restriction

[ktw]

I picked up a 1903 Springfield at a small local gun show last weekend. My first 03. Remington, 3,111,xxx, RA 5-42 barrel. Some small handling marks on the stock, but other than that, little to no visible wear on the rifle.

The stock doesn't appear to be original (straight grip stock with finger groove forearm, but no stamps and more figure than I typically see in a military stock). It has what appears to be a new barrel on it; took out some cosmoline but no powder/jacket fouling.

While cleaning the barrel I ran into some resistance when running a patch through right at the front sling swivel band. At first I thought this was simply a sticky patch of cosmoline to work out, but after a fair amount of scrubbing/patching and a bright shiny bore, the resistance is still there (more than I have ever felt while patching any rifle barrel). A pin gauge shows a restriction at the same spot.

My question is, is this issue at all unusual with a new/near new 1903 barrel?

I don't have a problem fire-lapping it out if that is what's called for but thought I'd check in with others with more experience in 03 barrels before tackling that as the solution. I wasn't expecting a significant barrel restriction in a military rifle barrel and I'm looking for confirmation of my diagnoses before taking that on as a project.

-ktw

[MtGun44]

Very unusual, in my experience. I have had a number of 1903s and never a barrel with a
tight spot.

Bill

[3006guns]

Agreed.....my 1903 has a slight "loose" spot that can be felt with a tight patch, but still shoots beautifully. That band couldn't be putting enough pressure on the barrel to cause such an effect I wouldn't think. Try shooting it and then form an opinion...it might be just fine the way it is.

[FrankG]

May be a chatter mark from rifling. Try a little JB Bore slickum on tight patch on a used brush . Might just slick it up .

[ktw]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not seeing anything there by looking down the bore, just feeling something with a tight patch.

I'll give it the JB Bore treatment, and shoot some ball ammo through it, before considering anything else.

-ktw

[Multigunner]

At one time (at least till 1914) military .30-06 ammo had a bad problem with the base of the bullet jacket stripping off, leaving a band of jacket material stuck in the bore and ironed into the bore surface by following shots.
For years each soldier was issued a stuck jacket removal tool. This tool was a plug with a negative image of the rifling and sharp leading edges. They would insert the tool from the muzzle and tap on the rod till it got under the edges of the stuck jacket and peeled it away from the bore so it could be pushed out.

After making changes to the bullet manufacturing process the problem all but went away, and instead of a jacket remover being part of every cleaning kit only a few were issued to officers and non coms who knew how to use them without damaging the bore.
Stuck jackets became rare after WW1, but much older ammo was still around and used for training till the 1920's and probably much later.
Jackets shed in the bore are almost unheard of with good quality modern ammo, but many of these old rifles were used with ancient dirt cheap surplus ammo by generations of civilian owners.

There may be another cause, but thats the first thing I remembered when you described the symptoms. A bore scope may reveal the answer.
If its a stuck jacket worst thing will be if its been ironed in so throughly that on removal the bore suface there will be a few thousandths larger where the jacket once was.

[nicholst55]

At one time (at least till 1914) military .30-06 ammo had a bad problem with the base of the bullet jacket stripping off, leaving a band of jacket material stuck in the bore and ironed into the bore surface by following shots.
For years each soldier was issued a stuck jacket removal tool. This tool was a plug with a negative image of the rifling and sharp leading edges. They would insert the tool from the muzzle and tap on the rod till it got under the edges of the stuck jacket and peeled it away from the bore so it could be pushed out.

After making changes to the bullet manufacturing process the problem all but went away, and instead of a jacket remover being part of every cleaning kit only a few were issued to officers and non coms who knew how to use them without damaging the bore.
Stuck jackets became rare after WW1, but much older ammo was still around and used for training till the 1920's and probably much later.
Jackets shed in the bore are almost unheard of with good quality modern ammo, but many of these old rifles were used with ancient dirt cheap surplus ammo by generations of civilian owners.

There may be another cause, but thats the first thing I remembered when you described the symptoms. A bore scope may reveal the answer.
If its a stuck jacket worst thing will be if its been ironed in so throughly that on removal the bore suface there will be a few thousandths larger where the jacket once was.

Thanks for posting that info, Multigunner! I'd never heard about the issue of stuck jackets before.

[klcarroll]

@ Multigunner

Yes! ....Thank you for posting that!

....I hadn't run across that before! (Live and Learn!)

Kent

[dominicfortune00]

For years each soldier was issued a stuck jacket removal tool. This tool was a plug with a negative image of the rifling and sharp leading edges. They would insert the tool from the muzzle and tap on the rod till it got under the edges of the stuck jacket and peeled it away from the bore so it could be pushed out.

I've been looking for one of those tools for around 20 years.

They also made one for the 1917 rifle, been looking for one of those too.

[Char-Gar]

After 50 years of shooting and working on rifles, I have learned to not fret about such things. Shoot it first, then ten fret if there is a problem. Most supposed issues turn out to be not worth the effort to worry about them.

[Larry Gibson]

After 50 years of shooting and working on rifles, I have learned to not fret about such things. Shoot it first, then ten fret if there is a problem. Most supposed issues turn out to be not worth the effort to worry about them.

Now is that the truth.....:-)

Larry Gibson

[uscra112]

If it's jacket material, a hefty dose of Sweets will give you nice green patches from that area, no? If it does prove to be jacket material, a Foul-Out machine should get it out.

[405]

I've heard of shucked jackets from old military Jbullets left in a bore but have never seen one. I've seen gas checks and half jackets left in a bore. Revolvers seem especially prone to that.

As far as a true bore/barrel constriction in an 03? Never seen that or even heard of it. My guess also is some foreign object like part of a case, a jacket, gas check or half jacket or even a cleaning rod jag or loop could be a possibility?

[Multigunner]

If it's jacket material, a hefty dose of Sweets will give you nice green patches from that area, no? If it does prove to be jacket material, a Foul-Out machine should get it out.

Unless its part of a cupro-nickel plated steel jacket. Gilding metal jackets didn't come along till after WW1, WW1 .30-06 used a Cupro-nickel jacket. Not sure if these were over a mild steel jacket or not. Most such jackets used by european militaries were plated steel jackets.
Old WW1 ammo is now very rare, but was probably fairly common surplus ammo up till the 50's.
Cupro-nickel should leave a blue-black residue on a patch, but the inside of a plated steel jacket wouldn't react to copper solvents.

I still figure a bore scope inspection is called for.

Sometime back I cleaned up a SMLE for a friend and a long narrow strip of jacket material peeled loose from the bottom of a groove and rolled into a coil that locked the patch in the bore pretty solidly. I finally wiggled it loose. A larger piece of an old stuck jacket breaking loose during firing might curl up and cause a bullet to seize in the bore and damage the rifle.

[Bob S]

A barrel that has been bent, and then "straightened" will have a tight spot at the bend. The bore flattens during bending, and cannot be made round again during the straightening process , except by reaming.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[fourarmed]

I have a 1903-A1 that has something embedded in the bore about where you describe. I ran a Foul-Out on it for quite a while, but it had no effect, so I suspect this is not jacket fouling. I looked at it with a borescope, but couldn't really tell anything from that. I tried firing some of David Tubbs' abrasive-coated Sierras, but they seemed to have no effect either. They did, however, shoot extremely well, so I quit fretting about it. I does not seem to shoot cast very well, but the bore is pretty dark...except for that one shiny spot.

[Gtek]

BobS has been there as I. Seen a few over the years out of the wrap with the tight spot from straightening procedure. I still have 03 I put together with HS 44 with spot, and it shoots better than I do. Pretend you did not know, go shoot it, enjoy it. Gtek

[Multigunner]

I have a 1903-A1 that has something embedded in the bore about where you describe. I ran a Foul-Out on it for quite a while, but it had no effect, so I suspect this is not jacket fouling. I looked at it with a borescope, but couldn't really tell anything from that. I tried firing some of David Tubbs' abrasive-coated Sierras, but they seemed to have no effect either. They did, however, shoot extremely well, so I quit fretting about it. I does not seem to shoot cast very well, but the bore is pretty dark...except for that one shiny spot.

That sounds like an embedded shed jacket.
The British had a shed jacket problem with some marks of the early 215 grain .303 bullets. Besides the "Dum-Dum" which had the nose clipped, they also manufactured a few marks that used a tublar jacket with exposed lead at the nose and an open base. These could blow through once the bore became eroded and roughned by the heat of Cordite. British Target shooters called the shed portions stuck in the bore a "Wedding Ring".

The main problem of shed jackets in the Springfield was due to erosion from the earlier 220 grain 1903 Government .30. The powder used was a high nitroglycerin content double base powder that was if anything even more erosive than Cordite.

A cupro-nickel coated steel jacket won't be dissolved by ammonia based solvents, or any other solvent I can think of.
Hatcher's Notebook mentions the effects of firing a rifle with stuck jacket still in place. After a few rounds the jacket becomes embedded in the bore surface with occasionally a raised ring appearing on the outside surface of the barrel. It was not considered to be safety concern, but the only way to deal with once the jacket became embedded it was a new barrel.


PS
I have seen a ring of raised metal inside a bore caused by something as simple as using a tube cutter to mark the outside to be filed for a ring front sight base.
Aggressive lead lapping of a bore might remove a thin jacket ring, but would at the least deepen the grooves beyond specs and induce blowby.

I can't say I'd feel comfortable leaving a stuck jacket in place, but I can't think of any economical and non destructive method of removing one that has been ironed into the bore. I doubt the old stuck jacket remover would be of much good once the jacket became deeply embedded.

[ktw]

BobS has been there as I. Seen a few over the years out of the wrap with the tight spot from straightening procedure. I still have 03 I put together with HS 44 with spot, and it shoots better than I do. Pretend you did not know, go shoot it, enjoy it. Gtek

I shot it today with some M72 NM, M2 Ball and some 311291/42g H4831SC. I am satisfied that it shoots both ball and cast better than I can hold.

-ktw

[garandsrus]

Ktw,

That's great news!

John

[Char-Gar]

After 50 years of shooting and working on rifles, I have learned to not fret about such things. Shoot it first, then ten fret if there is a problem. Most supposed issues turn out to be not worth the effort to worry about them.

Ahem!

[ktw]

Ahem!

I wasn't fretting. I was simply asking for information from people more experienced than I in an area of shooting that is relatively new to me. Your earlier, sage advice was noticed and noted.

I blame the situation on having gone out and bought those damn pin gauges. They've tuned up several "problems" I never even knew I had before. :wink:

-ktw

[Char-Gar]

Well perhaps I should have used the word "concerned" rather than "fretting". Fretting doesn't seem to suit you, but in my mind they are the same term. You were concerned about it enough to come to this board with the issues.

My whole point is way to many folks get concerned about issues with their rifles before they fire them at paper. This is your pin gauge point.

I have been at this rifle stuff for a long, long time. Way before there were pin gauges or at least way before I knew they existed. When we got a rifle, we cleaned the barrel and if we could see daylight through it, we tightened all the screws and went to the range for a try out. The target told us if there were any issues to track down and fix, not some little gizmo, or how tight a patch is in a barrel or what somebody said or wrote. The equation starts with a man, a rifle, and a target.

As I watch the development of the Internet and these type boards I witness the great rise of folks who develop concerns about their rifles, before they have fired a round. Talking about shooting seems to have replaced shooting to a large degree. I call this fretting, but maybe there are better terms.

[uscra112]

I blame the situation on having gone out and bought those damn pin gauges. They've tuned up several "problems" I never even knew I had before. :wink:-ktw

The phrase I heard over and over in my career in precision measurement went something like: "This dammed thing tells us things we didn't know we didn't want to know".

[ktw]

The target told us if there were any issues to track down and fix, not some little gizmo, or how tight a patch is in a barrel or what somebody said or wrote. The equation starts with a man, a rifle, and a target.

I've done a fair amount of shooting with this rifle in the last two and a half years since I started this thread. It has become my favorite plinking/fun gun while at the range.

I worked up a good load for it. I am using 311284 (NOE version) in air cooled wheelweights, sized to .311 and lubed with Speedgreen, loaded in military brass under 16.5 grains of 2400 and CCI LR primers. This runs right around 1540 fps in my rifle. The brass and the bullets are weight sorted.

I bought an extra front sight blade and filed it down to hit dead on at 100 with this cast load using the battlesights. This requires a sight setting of 700 for the 200 yard line and 850 for the 300. I later discovered that this modified blade also shot to the regular sight settings (200@200 and 300@300) using M2 Ball. Lucked out on that one.

My father and a brother stopped by a couple of weekends ago do some shooting. Between helping them with that, I took a few shots with the 1903 at the 300 yard line off of bags, using the cast bullet load and playing with windage adjustments. The first three shots hit left. I adjusted windage and next three hit right. After another adjustment and I put two more in the center. All three of those groups ended up less than 2 1/2 inches at 300 yds. I can say conclusively that the barrel kink I described in my original post has not been a significant problem.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/9b5b1b10-8127-46ba-9ce0-0c62e6b2dad3_zpsab76ad27.jpg (http://s57.photobucket.com/user/ktwna/media/9b5b1b10-8127-46ba-9ce0-0c62e6b2dad3_zpsab76ad27.jpg.html)

I took up Service Rifle High Power for the first time last summer. I shot the first event, a CMP 30 shot/200yd Garand/Springfield/Vintage match, with a Garand. I shot the second, a 50 shot NRA cross-the-course, with this 1903 and M2 Ball. I did slightly better with the 1903 in the slow fire stages but the rapid fire stages were quite a challenge. I need better stripper clips before trying that again. The 600 yard stage showed up some shortcomings in the use of M2 ball (HXP) at longer ranges. I shot the next two matches (50 and 80 shot cross-the-course events) with the Garand and using M72 NM at the 600 yard line. I had a great time and plan to start load development with Sierra Matchkings for the 300 and 600 yard stages in preparation for next summers matches. I'd like to try running the 1903 again in at least one of them.

-ktw

[Mk42gunner]

I sure am glad they figured out how to make a jacket stay together before I was an armorer. I can just imagine some of the numbskulls I knew leaving one of those in the bore, then wondering why the rifle blew up.

Robert

[Multigunner]

I sure am glad they figured out how to make a jacket stay together before I was an armorer. I can just imagine some of the numbskulls I knew leaving one of those in the bore, then wondering why the rifle blew up.

Robert

The problem was much worsened by the earlier use of very high nitro-glycerin content double base powders.
A Cadet manual of 1914 has a section on the effects of blowby on bullets fired in a barrel with gas eroded bore. The photos show bullets recovered after firing into saw dust or snowbanks.
page 549 onwards
Photos of sectioned eroded barrels.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QTcuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=cadet+gunnery+and+ordnance+manual+1914&source=bl&ots=Km2tDp2yPJ&sig=EtFNfd31SfhrGl64BHTUfSDNKTI&hl=en&ei=CIE2Su-INqO_twfukqGyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

From the look of the bullets these were fired from the older .30 cartridge of 1903, the 220 gr bullets. A high nitro double base powder used with that cartridge could erode the bore within 4,000 rounds.
A Ordnance department report of the same year describes the high number of stripped jackets in gas eroded bores. They recommend altering the manufacturing methods for future FMJ bullet production.

They settled on use of the single base pyro-cellulous powder to reduce erosion in further .30-06 production. They also added antimony to the lead of the bullet core.
Later on the antimony was no longer needed as cooler burning powders made erosion a distant worry. At that time they decided barrels should be swapped out after 4,000 to 5,000 rnds fired, the point when long range matchgrade accuracy had just begun to drop off, though useful combat accuracy life could extend past 18,000 rnds.
At that time the effects of harsh cleaning methods to remove cupro-nickel fouling damaged accuracy far worse than any mechanical or gas erosion of the newer ammunition.

[Tom Trevor]

Sedgely made replacement barrels, first for the USMC in 1941-1942 and later for both the USMC and Army - the latter had a "circle S" instead of a USMC. If the USMC barrel is marked 1941 or 1942, the rifle may have a USMC "history" if 1943 or 1944, probably not.

Many Sedgely barrels were sold as scrap and bent to prevent further military use. Some unscrupulous dealers "restraightened" them and sold them. What is the marking on the barrel at the top muzzle area? If S in a circle it may well be one of the bent and re-straightened barrels. Just search bent Sedgley barrels.

[Multigunner]

Sedgely made replacement barrels, first for the USMC in 1941-1942 and later for both the USMC and Army - the latter had a "circle S" instead of a USMC. If the USMC barrel is marked 1941 or 1942, the rifle may have a USMC "history" if 1943 or 1944, probably not.

Many Sedgely barrels were sold as scrap and bent to prevent further military use. Some unscrupulous dealers "restraightened" them and sold them. What is the marking on the barrel at the top muzzle area? If S in a circle it may well be one of the bent and re-straightened barrels. Just search bent Sedgley barrels.

This is valuable information.
In some online sources they state that National Ordnance bought some of these barrels. This may be why some National Ordnance rifles handle any sane loads just fine while others have Kaboomed without apparent reasons.
Barrel straightening operations have been a standard manufacturing process, but not to this degree.
There's bound to be some stress lines in these barrels.

[Char-Gar]

ktw....It is very good to get the follow up report. You have one fine rifle and you know how to manage it and shoot it very well. It should give you enjoyment for the rest of your life, loaded the way you are doing it.