WW, PB, and Mag Shot ?'s

[HodakaGA]

I've a good bit of straight lead sheeting, roof boots, and lead swaging wire but my WW's are fairly limited. I was given a couple of bags of Magnum shot that had sat in an outbuilding with a leaky roof so it isn't much good for loading shotshells, it's fairly cruddy and oxidized.

I'm thinking of trying to stretch my WW's with the PB and shot. My casting will be for PB 30 carbine, mild 357 mag 180 gr, 147 gr. 9mm, and GC 30-06 ~200gr. loads.

I can water drop or heat treat if necessary, I figure it will be.

What do you think of this recipe? 5# WW, 5# PB, 2# Shot, and 0.25# 60/40 solder for the above uses? An even lower WW/PB ratio would be even better.

Thanks all from a new caster.

Frank

[Frank]

That's too much mag shot for that recipe. You're going to need Sb to increase the hardness for the rifle rounds. I would save the tin and add by feel as you cast. .25# tin seems like a lot.

[Larry Gibson]

I'd drop the WWs and just use pb and shot at a 1-2 mix and then add 2% tin. That alloy has worked very well for me in the past.

The WWs many times have too much antimony and not enough tin. The Magnum shot has 3-5% antimony. So with your alloy mix you'll have still too high a % of antimony and not enough tin.

You can stretch the WWs into a good alloy suitable for your needs (WQ the bullets for higher velocity loads) with lead using a mix of 2 parts lead to 4 parts WW and adding 2% tin.

Larry Gibson

[sqlbullet]

Assumptions in source composition (Lead/Antimony/Tin):

WW = 97.5/2/.5
Magnum Shot = 95/5/0
Sheet and roofing lead = 100/0/0
Solder = 40/0/60

Based on this, I would probably mix it 5# WW, 5# Pure, 10# shot and .25-.3# Solder. This should give you 96/3/1 in your final alloy.

This would be the same as what I run for 10mm, 357, 44 mag and 30-06. I water drop for most of them. They end up about linotype hardness after aging for a couple of months.

Clearly the other poster's above think this is too much antimony.

[Larry Gibson]

Assumptions in source composition (Lead/Antimony/Tin):

WW = 97.5/2/.5
Magnum Shot = 95/5/0
Sheet and roofing lead = 100/0/0
Solder = 40/0/60

Based on this, I would probably mix it 5# WW, 5# Pure, 10# shot and .25-.3# Solder. This should give you 96/3/1 in your final alloy.

This would be the same as what I run for 10mm, 357, 44 mag and 30-06. I water drop for most of them. They end up about linotype hardness after aging for a couple of months.

Clearly the other poster's above think this is too much antimony.

Not me.

That is the correct amount of antimony just not enough tin is all for my likes. I find 2% tin makes for a better alloy and greatly reduces the amount of reject bullets with defects is all.

Larry Gibson

[pdawg_shooter]

I am with Larry here, I strive for 2% tin in all my alloys. I dont worry if I go 3 or even 4% but I try real hard not to go below 2%.

[HodakaGA]

When I crunch the #'s using sqlbullet's assumptions, my original mix would be a 97/1.6/1.4 ratio with a fair amount of arsenic in it to help w/heat treating. I see it could use more SN. Wouldn't the low SB (1.6%) be overcome w/the arsenic via heat treatment?

I appreciate your help.

[pdawg_shooter]

I dont heat treat or water drop. If I need a harder bullet I change alloys. The tin is to improve castability. I gives better fill-out. I hunt with cast so an extra hard bullet is NOT what I want.

[shotman]

not all wws are the same tin mix the ones that have Micro on them seem to have more than most. but are softer. There is big difference in making shot

[Frank]

sqlbullet:
Assumptions in source composition (Lead/Antimony/Tin):

WW = 97.5/2/.5
Magnum Shot = 95/5/0
Sheet and roofing lead = 100/0/0
Solder = 40/0/60

Based on this, I would probably mix it 5# WW, 5# Pure, 10# shot and .25-.3# Solder. This should give you 96/3/1 in your final alloy.

This would be the same as what I run for 10mm, 357, 44 mag and 30-06. I water drop for most of them. They end up about linotype hardness after aging for a couple of months.

Clearly the other poster's above think this is too much antimony.
That sounds like something that could work, since he already has mag shot. The more economical way to get Sb would be to order some and save the m.s. for heat treating.

[bumpo628]

I'm thinking of trying to stretch my WW's with the PB and shot.
[30 carbine, 357 mag, 9mm, GC 30-06]

What do you think of this recipe? 5# WW, 5# PB, 2# Shot, and 0.25# 60/40 solder for the above uses? An even lower WW/PB ratio would be even better.

Frank

It sounds like straight WW lead would be perfect for all of your applications, either water dropped or air cooled based on the application. What you need to do is figure out how to make WW lead with shot, pure lead, and solder. You can leave the WW out of the equation.

With your recipe above, I get:
1.43% Tin, 1.88% Antimony, 0.31% Arsenic, AC hardness @ 11-12
The tin is too high. If you cut that down from 4 oz to 1 oz, you'll get:
0.52% Tin, 1.91% Antimony, 0.31% Arsenic, AC hardness @ 10-11

You can make an alloy close to WW with the following:
10 lbs magnum shot, 5 lbs pure lead, 2 oz of 60/40 solder
0.50% Tin, 2.64% Antimony, 0.83% Arsenic, AC hardness @11-12

Another possibility would be this recipe:
7.5 lbs magnum shot, 7.5 lbs pure lead, 2 oz of 60/40 solder
0.50% Tin, 1.98% Antimony, 0.62% Arsenic, AC hardness @10-11

For my calcs I used the following assumptions:
WW lead (0.5% Tin, 3% Antimony, 0.25% Arsenic, AC hardness @ 12)
Magnum shot (4% Antimony, 1.25% Arsenic, AC hardness @ 13)
My hardness estimates do not account for the arsenic in the alloy, so the actual numbers will be higher.

[sqlbullet]

One other thought...Don't assume the sheet lead is pure until you have tested it's hardness. I had a bunch of sheet lead (500 lbs or so) that was 95/2.5/2.5.

Roof boots frequently have solder on edges as well, which will alter your results as well.

[HodakaGA]

Thanks all.....I guess I was really looking for that WW recipe (w/o using WW) but using my lead and mag shot. I can then combine that with an equal amount of WW to strech my WW's by a factor of 2.

I figure WW's will suit most all my needs, either as cast or water dropped. Locally the WW's are somewhat hard to locate, everybody either thinks they are gold or is committed to a recycler. I can buy WW ingots on this board already smelted for less than I'd have to pay locally for WW's, propane and assumed waste.

[HodakaGA]

One other thought...Don't assume the sheet lead is pure until you have tested it's hardness. I had a bunch of sheet lead (500 lbs or so) that was 95/2.5/2.5.

Roof boots frequently have solder on edges as well, which will alter your results as well.

My lead sheet is as flexible as lead wire, it's very soft. I think it's real pure. I will cook up some and give it a test though. The boots I have and can get don't have any solder on them unless there's a solder joint I'm not seeing where they were put together. Nobody around here joined them to flashing except with tar. Bet they'll smell real nice when I smelt them. :mrgreen:

[Frank]

bump0628:
You can make an alloy close to WW with the following:
10 lbs magnum shot, 5 lbs pure lead, 2 oz of 60/40 solder
0.50% Tin, 2.64% Antimony, 0.83% Arsenic, AC hardness @11-12

I like what you are trying to do, make ww's. You are a mathematical guy so let me ask you. Wouldn't it be cheaper to use super hard alloy 30/70 Sb Pb to add to the pure? I know the original poster said he had mag shot so maybe that's why you suggested the above.

[bumpo628]

bump0628:
I like what you are trying to do, make ww's. You are a mathematical guy so let me ask you. Wouldn't it be cheaper to use super hard alloy 30/70 Sb Pb to add to the pure? I know the original poster said he had mag shot so maybe that's why you suggested the above.

It all depends on the prices of your components.

You can make a similar alloy as listed above with the super hard:
1.5 lbs super hard alloy, 13.5 lbs pure lead, 2 oz of 60/40 solder
0.50% Tin, 2.98% Antimony, AC hardness @11-12

The result is almost identical (slightly higher antimony, but no arsenic). However, the super hard alloy costs $4 / lb. Granted you use less of it at only 1.5 lbs vs. 10 lbs of shot.

In my area, I can get reclaimed shot for about $1 a pound. I also have to pay about $1 per pound for pure lead. So, the total cost for 15 lbs of the mix is $15.
Compare this to the rotometals mix. 1.5 lbs of superhard is about $6. If I could get pure lead less than $0.67 per lb, then it is worth using the superhard.

I recently got a source for stick-on WW that costs me about $0.40 / lb, so I could sub the stickies for the pure lead when the clip-ons dry up.

[Frank]

bumpo628:
You can make a similar alloy as listed above with the super hard:
1.5 lbs super hard alloy, 13.5 lbs pure lead, 2 oz of 60/40 solder
0.50% Tin, 2.98% Antimony, AC hardness @11-12

Thanks. Doesn't take much.

[bumpo628]

bumpo628:
Thanks. Doesn't take much.

I just realized that the superhard doesn't have any arsenic. I just edited my previous post to reflect that. Either recipe will still give you fine boolits that perform closely to WW.