Extractor Problems in my Rossi

[robertbank]

I have a problem with my .357mag Rossi. The extractor is slipping off the case rims. Cures or cause? Help! Brass is Win copper and nickle with some copper Dominion.

Take Care

Bob

[357shooter]

Had the same problem, but it started happening after my first tear down. If you've had the ejector out, replacing it without getting it sitting just right may cause the problem. At least that's what I'm guessing.

If you haven't disassembled it than I'm not sure what's causing it.

The Steve's Gunz video helped out a bit. Placing a dummy round into the ejector, holding it in place (all with the breech bolt out of the gun) against the ejector spring, work the dummy round to compress and release the ejector. The collar and spring will seat just right with just a little fiddling. Then slide it all into the gun, with the bullet just started into the barrel, with the ejector under pressure the entire time.

That's probably not clear, maybe it makes sense. But the ejector not fully compressing exactly right is what causes the case rim to not seat exactly right into the extractor. I think...

It works perfectly well now.

[Jeff H]

Mine slipped off of about almost every case I tried to extract, expended or live.

The front of the extractor had been ground back too far and was leaving only just enough of a claw to barely catch the rim.

I had to relieve the underside of the extractor so the claw could reach farther down over the rim. Just deepening the claw wouldn't work because the underside of the ejector touches the bottom of the extractor slot in the bolt and wouldn't let it come down farther over the rim anyway. I had to relieve it from the claw to the retaining pin but it works perfectly now.

There was so much wrong inside mine that, had I known what I was in for - I would have waited until I found an older one. They really shoved the one I got through the plant. I am not just being picky either - I had a fair idea of what to expect for the brand and the money.

[robertbank]

357shooter I have never had mine apart. The problem just started awhile ago. I am going to scrub out my chamber best I can and see if that helps any. I also will take a close look at the extractor. The extractor just slips off the rim after the case comes out about 1/4 to 1.2".

Take Care

Bob

[357shooter]

357shooter I have never had mine apart. The problem just started awhile ago. I am going to scrub out my chamber best I can and see if that helps any. I also will take a close look at the extractor. The extractor just slips off the rim after the case comes out about 1/4 to 1.2".

Take Care

BobThat's exactly the problem I had too.

One of the tuning mods folks make is to remove about 1/2 the thickness of the rear 2/3 of the extractor. Removing material from the front actually causes the same problem you have now.

I didn't really "get" the benefit of doing this, but speculate it causes the ejector to curve a bit more and engage the case/rim better.

That and a slightly off ejector are the 2 ideas, beside cleaning it to make sure the case slides all the way into the extractor.

[robertbank]

I just test several empty and dummy cases. It would appear all brass is not the same when it comes to the rims. I am going to clean out the extractor area best I can and test several case brands before I delve into the guts of the thing. It maybe just a case of worn brass rims as well. I hope so.

Take Care

Bob

[357shooter]

Good luck with it.

[Jeff H]

That's exactly the problem I had too.

One of the tuning mods folks make is to remove about 1/2 the thickness of the rear 2/3 of the extractor. Removing material from the front actually causes the same problem you have now...........

That's exactly the problem (symptom) I had too, but I think mine was from a different problem that you are describing the cure for, because I did the exact opposite to cure mine.

So, before grinding anything - make sure you understand the cause of your particular problem and match up the right corrective action. Three rifles doing the same thing - but it looks like it could be different causes. Mine may not have been what is possibly a more common issue.

If you just have a weak extractor, taking away metal is going to make it worse.

If you have a miniscule claw - like mine was, because someone at the factory got a little heavy-handed or hurried with the grinder, there are a number of options:
1) get a new extractor and hope the guy who finished it was over his hangover by the time he got to the one that you get in the mail.
2) weld up and regrind a claw long enough to get a purchase on the rim
3) see if there is anywhere you can make some room for it to allow the claw to go farther down over the rim.

I chose option #3, having accepted that if it didn't work, I had option #1 to fall back on.

The problem I had (same symptoms as both of yours) seems to have had a different root cause - or at least it is possible, so look yours over. I could watch my extractor raise above the top surface of the bolt as the claw went over the rim, but it was almost imperceptible. Now that I removed some metal from the bottom of the extractor (from the claw to the pin - or the front 2/3ds) and it can now go down farther, it raises noticeably and the top of it lies just below the surface of the top of the bolt.

Removing metal (from the bottom) on either side of the pin that holds it in, will likely weaken it some, but there is so much metal there that mine is still plenty stiff. Polish any perpendicular grind marks out so you don't create a spot for the tension to concentrate and possibly break later.

IF you get a piece of debris, even a loose metal shaving under the extractor, that would have caused what mine was doing, but after the teardown/cleanup and ejector spring replacement, I could manipulate the whole works and observe the problem with the assembly out of the action. I could not get a case to stay under the extractor without holding it up, which the bottom part of the chamber will do until the case is extracted a bit and then "THUNK," the case is propelled forward back into the chamber because the bottom of the chamber.

[Jeff H]

I just test several empty and dummy cases. It would appear all brass is not the same when it comes to the rims. I am going to clean out the extractor area best I can and test several case brands before I delve into the guts of the thing. It maybe just a case of worn brass rims as well. I hope so.

Take Care

Bob

As much as it makes some people cringe, I use mixed brass for the .38 and .357 because mmy loads are rarely up to the normal max. pressures. The rims differ somewhat and were also getting burred up badly from the gnarly extractor, which I polished to correct that problem.

When I was extracting zero out of nine, I was pretty sure it wasn't the differences in the cases - and it shouldn't be. It should work with any of them. If your rifle is as rough as mine, you probably have a lot of burrs and possibly some "extra metal" lying loose inside.

[robertbank]

Well I think I solved the problem. Keep in mind I am not a mechanical genius. That said I did spend most of my life solving financial problems so I figure I rate as only being slightly inept, not near a mechanical genius but above inept.

I noticed a couple of things. The problem did not exist when I get the gun and now it does. With flashlight in hand I noticed minute lead deposits where the extractor slips into the gun above the chamber opening. The little ramp thingy. (I told you I am slightly inept mechanically). Too, I noticed a very small partical of lead on the face of the extractor. I scrapped both the ramp above the chamber opening and the face of the extractor and the gun now managed to extract all my dummy rounds and a couple of fired cases.

I think what happens when feeding LSWC every so often I get one bind up in the entry into the chamber due to being just a tad to long. Some small deposits of lead shaving from the boolit deposits on the ramp where the extractor rests when the action is closed. Repeated firings causes the lead to smear thinly but effectively on the ramp thus preventing the extractor from gaining a good grip on the rim.

I suspect there may well be some small deposits under the extractor but to get at them requires the removal of the extractor, a job I hope to defer on the hopes my cleaning of the ramp works. If not I'll go to plan B. What the heck the worst thing that can happen is the whole gun goes to my gunsmith for reassemble. Note those who are slightly inept mechanically are very good at taking something apart but are challenged when we get to the re-assemble part.:oops:

Note to self. remember never attempt to strip down a CZ Shadow, small springs tend to go everywhere.....don't ask!

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

[QUOTE=Jeff H;1237454]As much as it makes some people cringe, I use mixed brass for the .38 and .357 because mmy loads are rarely up to the normal max. pressures. /QUOTE]

Jeff I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference. I have Chroned hundreds of loads using all the same brass and mixed and have found no notieable difference in results in my handgun shooting or carbines. Now I am not a bench rest shooter so lack the anal concerns regarding componenets etc but for me and my shooting ability the differences in cases contributes nothing of significance when compared to a slight cateract on my shooting eye and my far sightedness along with my non-atheletic body and my copious consumption of coffee daily.

Take Care

Bob

[Jeff H]

Good detective work, Bob.

Glad you didn't tear it apart and start grinding!

[357shooter]

Nice going. Getting the Steves Gunz DVD is worth it in case you every do tear it down. This was my first rifle teardown, it took days of frustration to get it back together. An then it had problems.

Watching the tips in the video makes it easy to do, only taking a few minutes.

I did some of the action job that he also covers (I did some of the grinding too), wow. What a difference and big improvement in overall smoothness.

[robertbank]

My 44 mag had teh Steve thing done to it. Action is slick as butter in a hot pan

Take care

Bob

[robertbank]

Well back to the drwing boards. I am still having problems.. I cleaned the extractor area out clean as a whistle. I think the problem is a weak extreactor spring. I am going to order a new one from Borwnells and dive into the innards when it arrives.

Take Care

Bob

[Jeff H]

Well back to the drwing boards. I am still having problems.. I cleaned the extractor area out clean as a whistle. I think the problem is a weak extreactor spring. I am going to order a new one from Borwnells and dive into the innards when it arrives.

Take Care

Bob

Bob, the extractor IS the extractor spring. Take a look again at what I posted above and see if it makessense to you. Made sense to me because I wrote it, but if it didn't make sense to you, I could post a picture.

Try to determine if the claw is getting sufficient engagement. Looking at my own, it was very obvious that it just wasn't being allowed to slide far enough over the rim to maintain a grip on the case. It was only obvious, however AFTER I had the bolt out of the reciever.

See if you can move the extractor up with your finger. Cases were popping out from under my extraxctor even after I replaced the ejector spring with a really whimpy one. That's how I found it.

It's probably pretty stiff because there's a lot of steel there. I am trying to scan a sketch but my editing program doesn't like the image.

[Jeff H]

Anyway....... This is what I was talking about when I said that I had to remove material from the bottom of the extractor. The portion that is shaded is what I removed. That allowed the extractor to go farther into the groove and get the claw farther over the rim. It was still plenty stiff. The extractor works perfectly now and the ejector will work until th springgets tired. Now, I have t oresolve the feeding issues.

This may or may not be what you are having a problem with, but with the sloppiness they built mine - it wouldnot surprise me that you have a similar issue. Mine worked somewhat whent brand new, but the very tip of the claw didn't last long the way they ground it. I cleaned that up and took all the burrs and sawteeth off of it and the accumulation of brass shavings has stopped as well.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t284/mike-foxtrot/scan0001-1.jpg

[357shooter]

That is the mod I mentioned earlier as well. The only difference between yours and what Steves Gunz recommends is that he leaves about 1 inch from the extractor tip (the top of the picture) untouched.

My Rossi doesn't seem to need this mod as once I seated the ejector correctly (had to be done out of the gun) the problem hasn't happened again. So far that's about 700 rounds without the issue.

[Jeff H]

That is the mod I mentioned earlier as well. The only difference between yours and what Steves Gunz recommends is that he leaves about 1 inch from the extractor tip (the top of the picture) untouched.

My Rossi doesn't seem to need this mod as once I seated the ejector correctly (had to be done out of the gun) the problem hasn't happened again. So far that's about 700 rounds without the issue.

I am not sure I would expect this to be one of the "normal" mods either. I believe that in the case of mine, it originsted from sloppy workmanship which was above and beyond normal - making my effort not "tuning" but "expedient repairinig." Steve is probably telling you not to touch that part so the extractor does NOT go deeper into the slot, which makes sense - unless someone ground the claw back too far.

As far as not touching the part you mentioned - that was specifically what I had to remove to allow the extractor to get that vestige of a claw down farther over the rim. This was not done to lighten the extractor (but I am sure it did), rather to make it go deeper in the slot. A new extractor would have been the most correct repair, buut I didn't know if a replacement was going to be made with any more care than the original.

[robertbank]

Well I may have fixed mine last night. I took the extractor out and added a slight bend to it at the rear of the part. I ejected several spent cases and it seemed to work OK. I won't know until later today if I have it fixed or not. The claw appeared to be going in far enough on the case but there wasn't enough tension to hold the case. I'll let you know how it works after I return from the range.

Just a question but if the ejector has to heavy a spring would that also contribute to the problem. I am thinking it would be pushing to hard on the case to early and contributing to the case slipping off the extractor? Probably not but I thought I would throw it out there for your input.

Take Care

Bob

[Jeff H]

......Just a question but if the ejector has to heavy a spring would that also contribute to the problem.......Bob

This is the only Rossi '92 I have personally dealt with, but it certainly makes sense - if the extractor does not have enough of a purchase on the rim and/or not enough tension to keep that purchase. That is what I thought was wrong with mine initially. It is possible you wouldn't have noticed this if you had a weaker ejector. One of those sneaky things that makes you think you know what the problem is until you have watched it work over and over, or after you have "fixed" the wrong thing - hence the warning you see about going nuts on the locking bolts because the APPEAR to be what offers that resistance just as the bolt closes.

This is what made me a Mauser fan - no plunger-type ejector, but every gun can't be made that way. The Ruger M77 had a plunger with a very strong spring which caused me fits with an Ackley-Improved case. It was so strong that it drove the case in between the corners of the bolt slot on the right side of the reciever and would hang up. I never popped a case out from under the huge extractor, but it caused other problems, none the less.

Take youir time and observe - work everything in slow motion with dummies. You may have hit it and it may well help even more to get the weaker ejector spring. Polishing the claw if you take it out again will be easier on your brass too, Mine was chewing up brass badly. Once you have had it apart once, it's not that bad getting it back together and you may as well become familiar with its workings.

In addition to the dummy cartridge suggested for re-assembly, I made a dowel to innsert into the bolt pin hole which I can push out once the bolt is home. Then, I slide the bolt back to where I can see the guts and where to aim with the lever. It goes together fairly easily after the second time.

[357shooter]

Had a problem with the collar and spring not sitting just right. By not allowing the case to fully and smoothly fit and then straighten out, it cause the ejector to slip off. Don't know if the spring strength can cause the issue or not.

[Jeff H]

Had a problem with the collar and spring not sitting just right. By not allowing the case to fully and smoothly fit and then straighten out, it cause the ejector to slip off. Don't know if the spring strength can cause the issue or not.

I don't know, but it sure is a contraption down in amongst those parts, isn't it? I played with that assembly for a long time, just trying to understand how something so loosey-goosey all stayed put and did what it was supposed to do.

Anyway, being new to the '92, that's why I used the dowel. Otherwise, I would have had to have three hands and a thumb on at least one other minor appendage.

BTW, since I mentioned the brass munching extractor, I should also mention that the ejector (with the original spring) or the part of the bolt that is riveted on will also leave their own characteristic signature on the rims too. Feeding issues that interrupt a vigorous racking of the lever create "teeth" on the rims. Not so much a problem in the gun but can be annoying when they won't go into or come out of shell holders in your press or priming tool.

[robertbank]

I am happy to report problem solved. Cases are now ejecting out with authority. The solution was to slightly bend the back of the ejector. Plus was, using the 358477 boolit I was hitting the 150 yard gong with every round. Happy as a camper.

I also took my LOngbranch out today. Report will follow on the appropriate sub-forum.

Thanks to all

Take Care

Bob

[357shooter]

Good job.

[Jeff H]

I am happy to report problem solved. Cases are now ejecting out with authority. The solution was to slightly bend the back of the ejector.................Bob

Cool!
How's feeding going? I got mine to cycle 358429s to a point. Where once they were hitting the top pf the chamber (inside) with the nose and the bottom radiused edge with the case and locking up, they don't do that any more - instead, they hang up on the radius at the bottom only. The sharp shoulder of the SWC hits it.

I am between messing with the slots in the guides or building up a small area at the front end of the carrier to "aim" the nose just a fuzz higher - which may just put me back where I started.

The 125 grain LEE TCs fecmech sent me are the berries, but have yet to get the longer SWC to feed reliably.

[robertbank]

I've had no problems with my cartridges cyclying at all. As long as the carrier would introduce the cartridge to the chamber they slid in just fine.

Take Care

Bob