First boolits and 3 point jam with leading.

[wvmedic]

Well I finally got to shoot my reloads yesterday, I loaded my 200 gr Lee SWC OAL 1.35. I loaded them with 6 gr. Unique, shot probably thirty and had maybe fifteen three point jams. Also had leading in the bore, the boolits were sized to .452, my barrel was slugged at .451. I lubed pre sizing and post sizing, used WW for the boolits.
Any Ideas as to what might be going on, also I am not sure there is any chore boy available to me locally. So how can I get the lead out, it isn’t real bad but there is lead in the barrel.

Jeff

[RobS]

Leading where in the barrel???? at the start of the lands near the chamber end, at the muzzle end primarly, or throughout the entire length of the barrel.

Sounds like you are sizing right for the barrel, boolits .001 over groove diameter, so I wonder if you pull one of those WW alloyed boolits (assuming they were air cooled) you loaded up and remeasure the base it very well could be undersized.

As to cycling, I don't know what 45 auto you are using but some just don't like SWC designs. Other 45's will work well with SWC's but a person has to play around with the COAL a bit to find what works; 1.35" sounds a bit long especially if it's Lee's TL SWC design.

Chore boy will work or even bronze or brass screen. Check your dollar stores, Ace Hardware, etc. and carry a magnet with you to make sure it's not copper washed/coated stainless steel.

[BABore]

Pure copper, "Chore Boy" brand scrubbie threads wrapped on a bronze brush will take the leading out in a few strokes. A little Kroil oil patched in and left for a few minutes prior will make it go fast. Be sure the Chore Boy is pure copper by using a magnet. There are some copper coated steel ones out there.

As far as why it happened, could be a few things. I assume your loading for the 45 acp?? Need to state that stuff. Off the top of my head it could be powder choice or amount, although Unique is a great powder in the acp. I'm not up-to-date on your powder amount to comment on it. Maybe somebody with a manual will chime in. You alloy is fine even air cooled and your sizing about where you should. One thing to be aware of is that the boolit could be getting sized down below this when seating and crimping. Lee factory crimp dies are infamous for sizing boolits down. Use an inertia hammer and pull a boolit after seating and another after crimping to see what your bbl may be seeing. You didn't mention where your leading started in the bbl. Just ahead of the chamber indicates poor boolit fit. Near the end is poor lube.

[462]

I agree that the length is too long. Have you dropped a dummy round into the barrel (removed from the gun) to see if it chambers correctly? Proper chambering is when the cartridge base is even with the barrel hood...at least in a 1911A1 and its clones.

[scrapcan]

set your seating depth based on the kuhnhausen method for swc style bullets. I don't remember right off the top of my head but I seem to remember it was 0.06 to 0.10 from case mouth to shoulder on SWC. I posted it way back in another thread like this.

Another way to get overall length in the right ball park is to find the nose diameter and compare that to the same diameter on a ball round. Set your overall length to that length where the same diameter sets on ball round and it should feed based on bullet contact to the feed ramp, barrel hood, etc...

Also if this is a 1911 style pistol, read through the magazine analysis threads, they will help you a bunch.

[plainsman456]

Pull your barrel out of the pistol and check if your rounds fit the chamber.
It is the easiest way to check the seating depth.

[wvmedic]

Sorry folks, I just rememberd that I didn't post what I was shooting. It is a springfield GI 1911 5" barrel, and I water dropped the WW. My lube is the 45-45-10 with a bit more JPW though. It's like 12 Oz. Alox, 14 Oz. JPW and 2 Oz. mineral spirits. The lead while not heavy is the full length of the barrel. I put the calaper to the boolits afdter sizing them and theychecked ot good, I did use the factory crimp die though. I will pull a few of the remaning boolits and see what the measure out to. The boolits are the Lee just not the TL type.

Jeff

[wvmedic]

Also I did pull the barrel and they chambered fine. I also shot some FMJ after cleaning the barrel, still have a little lead left. But they cycled fine no jams or failure to return to battery.

Jeff

[gray wolf]

1.350 for your O A L come on now you got to be kidding.
1.270 is about max O A L for a ball round. How the heck are you getting an O A L .080 over max
I am sure that must be a mistake. So lets get that corrected and tell us what kind of 45 you are shooting. It can't be an auto with 1.350 it would never fit in the mag.
How are you crimping ? what crimp die ?
Seat your WC bullets so the back of the case is flush with the back your barrel hood.
Is your barrel set up for WC bullets ? Help us out here with a little more information.

[fredj338]

I am sure you meant a diff OAL, as 1.3 isn't going to chamber. The water quenching could be the issue, too hard can be bad for hard lead slugs at low pressures, not sealing the bore before gas leaks by & cuts into the side of the bullet. Are you using hte LFCD? That can resize a perfectly good 0.452" bullet smaller, ruining accuracy & causing leading, again, w/ the harder bullet. I would ditch the LFCD if using one, then try aircooled. I shoot a lot of 200grLSWC/6gr Unique, no appreciable leading.

[wvmedic]

I did use the Lee factory crimp die, I will pull a couple booloits and measure them. Idid not put a heavy crimp on them though, I almost didn't crimp them at all. But I changed my mind at the last minute and crimped them.

Also sorry I might have made a mistake on the OAL as it might be 1.25 not 1.35. I will find out when I get home, I am currently at work and posting between calls. The load data I am useing is from Lyman's handgun manual.

Thanks for everyones assistance though, I will post back the OAL as soon as I get it.

Jeff

[RobS]

Jeff:
I doubt that the case swaged down on the boolit to cause a smaller diameter since you were using water quenched WW alloy. However the Lee FCD could give you issues. If you felt resistance at the carbide ring just as the round entered the mouth of the die then it is entrirely possible the carbide ring is squeezing down on the brass which in turn can swage down your boolit. The crimping part of the die (floating crimp sleeve in the die body) actually does a great job and many here including myself have simply taken out the carbide ring of the die. Your pulled bullet diameter will give you an idea as to what's going on. If you want to know for certain though load up two dummy rounds; one that you run through the loading stages but omit the crimping stage and the other dummy round where you run through all the stages from decapping/case resizing to crimping. Measure the two to see what's going on and eliminate a few variables to your leading issues.

[wvmedic]

Rob you have hit on something that jarred my memory, I definitely felt resistance both entering and exiting the die. I thought this was strange but had forgotten about it till you mentioned it.
Jeff

[Jailer]

1.25 OAL is still a bit long for that boolit. I load mine to 1.185 and they cycle flawlessly.

Try a taper crimp die as well. The factory crimp die is going to swage a boolit sized to .452 when you run it through the die. Try pulling a few after you've crimped them with the factory crimp die and you'll see what I'm talking about. Remember you only want to remove the bell from the case mouth and crimp only enough so they will chamber reliably.

[RobS]

1.25 OAL is still a bit long for that boolit. I load mine to 1.185 and they cycle flawlessly.


You seat the tumble lube 200 grain SWC or the traditional lube groove 200 grain SWC at this length?

[462]

Measure boolits with a micrometer, it's 10-times more accurate than a caliper.

With your added information -- entire barrel leaded, usage of Lee's carbide factory crimp die, caliper measured boolit -- I suspect that the loaded boolit is too skinny.

There are two camps, when it comes to shooting copper over lead: the camp that says the copper removes the lead, and the camp that says the copper irons the lead into the barrel. I'm not out to sway your opinion one way or the other, but you may want to think about it.

[RobS]

There are two camps, when it comes to shooting copper over lead: the camp that says the copper removes the lead, and the camp that says the copper irons the lead into the barrel. I'm not out to sway your opinion one way or the other, but you may want to think about it.

I camp where there are no J's. :bigsmyl2: ....:cbpour::bigsmyl2:

[Jailer]

You seat the tumble lube 200 grain SWC or the traditional lube groove 200 grain SWC at this length?

Tumble lube.

Is the traditional lube groove boolit longer? I wouldn't think so but I don't know since I don't have a mold for it.

[wvmedic]

Alright I was wrong on both, they measure at 1.235. I am going to pull a boolit or two, it might be Monday before I have a chance to do so but I will post my results here. I suspect that the factory crimp die is the culprit. Just to add the shoulder of the SWC is barely out of the brass, so I'm not sure I could seat it much further. I will try to get a picture of a few to post for review.

Thanks again.
Jeff

[RobS]

They are considerably different in length. The TL 200 grain SWC is a short stubby little boolit and the traditional lube groove 200 grain SWC is longer. The original poster is not using the TL design.

Lee's new website shows good pics of the two for comparison.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Bullet-Mold-Double-Cavity/

[Jailer]

They are considerably different in length. The TL 200 grain SWC is a short stubby little boolit and the traditional lube groove 200 grain SWC is longer. The original poster is not using the TL design.

Lee's new website shows good pics of the two for comparison.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Bullet-Mold-Double-Cavity/

Thanks for the link, that helps a lot.

OP I had some feeding issues when I was figuring out a load on the SWC that I'm casting. Turned out it was too low of a powder charge causing weak ejection and a subsequent misfeed of the following round. You are right at the minimum charge according to Lymans 4th manual. Try upping the charge just a bit and see if your jamming and leading goes away.

[drklynoon]

I just went to the rang today and was shooting a similiar load. I'm using 5.5 gr. unique with the lee reg. lube SWC 200 gr. I'm shooting a kimber Royal II. The bullets are a water dropped WW and I'm getting no leading but I do get jams three point types. I might have been seating my bullets back a bit too far so thats something to play with my OAL is right at 1.2. I use the regular seating crimp die to crimp mine. I seat the bullet then go back and crimp. Mine do not have a roll crimp I'm taper crimping. Oh and I'm using Lyman super Moly Lube. I don't know yet how to fix your jamming yet but this load isn't leading for me.

[wvmedic]

Would bronze wool work in place of brass or copper for lead removal? My wife picked up some today at the local hardware store, mind you Charleston, WV is not a large city but man I have trouble finding much locally to help me in my shooting hobby. The 2010 census shows that the metropolitan area consists of 304,214, so I would think with the number of hunter, shooters in WV there would be a greater avalibilty of reloading type supplies.

I have to get most of my supplies on line, this is the main reason I’m using unique for my powder, it is one of the only pistol powders I can get locally and it is reasonably priced. Gander MTN is more expensive and the local gun stores if they have a powder I could use wants almost as much as what I could get it shipped to me for after paying the haz-mat fee. Ok I will quit ranting now, I just get frustrated trying to find items that I need.

Anyway if bronze will not work and I cannot find any brass or copper scrubbers, I will find a head shop and buy some pipe screens to use on my jag.

Jeff

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry folks, I just rememberd that I didn't post what I was shooting. It is a springfield GI 1911 5" barrel, and I water dropped the WW. My lube is the 45-45-10 with a bit more JPW though. It's like 12 Oz. Alox, 14 Oz. JPW and 2 Oz. mineral spirits. The lead while not heavy is the full length of the barrel. I put the calaper to the boolits afdter sizing them and theychecked ot good, I did use the factory crimp die though. I will pull a few of the remaning boolits and see what the measure out to. The boolits are the Lee just not the TL type.

Jeff

Newer WWs are sometimes pretty low on tin leaving a high anitomony content. When WQ'd the antimony many times crystalizes first and leading can easily result. Suggest adding 2% tin to your alloy and then do not WQ, let the bullets air cool. That alloy will be plenty hard enough for the .45 ACP. I also suggest you try straight LLA as the lube, follow the directions. You can "thin" it easily by soaking the bottle for 5 minutes in some hot tap water just prior to use. I've not had any problems with straight LLA that way, either in application or from leading.

Larry Gibson

[gray wolf]

Hard to find items ??
Well I'll tell ya Pilgrim, if in you want hard to find items come to Maine, Oquossoc to be exact.
The closest you find to a WW is perhaps seeing a car on the road.
Reloading supplies? none, Nada, casting supplies ? nope not a thing, powder, primers ?
you guessed it --none. It makes for a very big challenge, interesting, but a pain in the a$$.
When something breaks you find another use for it. You do that until it crumbles into dust,
and then you label the dust pile for future reference.
This is Maine guy's, one of the states known for big game hunting. You would think Eh.
Everything is Mail order unless you trip over it.
But Dung happens and I get along, at least so far.

Sam

[243winxb]

Air cool boolits. 5.5gr Unique. No Lee FCD. Maximum lube. Try again.

[wvmedic]

I have found a K-Mart brand of copper scrubbing pad. The problem is, when I did the magnet test the scrubber was drawn to the magnet. It wouldn't stick to it but there was a reaction to the magnet, so I take it this would be a problem right?

Jeff

[captaint]

Yes, medic = the bronze wool will be excellent for removing your lead. Go get it.... enjoy Mike

[wvmedic]

Ok so I pulled a boolit tonight. The base measured .450 the top band measured .451 so the boolits have been swagged. I will just use my RCBS dies and skip the Lee die. I know I didn't mention it before but the boolits were very accurate. So I hope they only get better.

I did find some chore boy pads as well, I will be going to pickup a pack.

Jeff

[475BH]

This is what I start with, as long as they end up shorter than 1.270"
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/sbhg/T1005.jpg

[RobS]

Ok so I pulled a boolit tonight. The base measured .450 the top band measured .451 so the boolits have been swagged. Jeff

BINGO...........The Lee FCD meets another unsatisfied Cast Boolit

[wvmedic]

Rob as I was trying to go to sleep last night, one thing kept troubling me. The bottom band on the boolit was swagged to .450 while the top band was only swagged to .451. This makes me think I might not have flared the case mouth enough, the Lee 452-200 SWC boolit has a beveled base so I might have only flared the case enough to start the bevel. I will check this on my next rounds tomorrow, I know I should only change one thing at a time to rule out the problem. However I think that could have contributed to the problem also, after I check this out I might give the FCD another go just to rule it out as a problem.

Thanks, Jeff

[XWrench3]

1) NO CRIMP! you just want to straighten the case back out. the 45acp headspaces on the case. 2) i have found with Lee swc pistol boolits, that the O.A.L. needs to be a little shorter than a normal round. usually roughly - 0.020" is a good starting point. 3) just recently, i have come up with an idea about removing lead by shooting. i have done this on 2 seperate occasions, in 2 different guns. i was going to wait to post this, until i was certain it works all of the time, but since you are having trouble, and can not come up with a copper chore boy, i will let the cat out of the bag a bit prematurely. i am shooting the same boolits that leaded the barrels in the first place. BUT, the difference is in the load, and the lube. i am loading them very slow speed. using a light pistol powder charge. in a pistol, you might be suprised how little powder will push the boolit out of the barrel. the other thing, is i am using automotive grease to lube the boolits with. specificly, i am using Kendal Super Blu high temp "L-427" grease. i have no idea why this seems to work. but in my 45acp, and my 30-30. 4-6 shots of this cleans the overwhelming majority of the lead in the barrel out of the bore. i loaded up 50 rounds of 44 special loads using this lube, and the barrel, after 50 shots (using bullseye) came out looking almost like it had not been fired. the bore was BRIGHT AND SHINEY, no lead at all, and even very little powder residue. these were standard loads, not reduced. now, on the 44, the barrel was clean when i started. but i have never had the barrel look so clean after shooting. you might want to give it a try. one word of caution, make sure there is no grease on the bottom of the boolit, or it will contaminate the powder (the cartridge will not fire).

[gray wolf]

A 45 ACP just don't need a lube made on a full moon
while the planets are trying to get in a row. They don't need to be shot at very low velocities either. A decent Bees Wax lube with some kind of added Lubricant, most times just one with the bees wax will do it. The OP has found that his bullets were under sized--Problem #1
Problem #2, falling in love with the Lee FCD, loose the dam thing and crimp in two stages.
Seat the bullets and get another die to use for the case flare removal, I didn't say crimp for a reason. Just remove the case flare, big problems with feeding,
or no feeding at all if you don't. Remove the case mouth flare and just a cats whisker more
Pressure on the press handle.
For the one hundred and fifty thousand time
Crimping adds nothing to bullet hold in the case, but it does allow for a smooth transition Against the feed ramp and proper entry into the barrel.
Remember getting a bullet into the barrel on a 45 ACP is gymnastic achievement at best.
Out of the mag, hits the feed ramp, bumps the throat- ed area on the barrel, Then jumps up and hits the top of the barrel chamber, straightens it's self out and fully chambers.
I get tired just saying it, do things correctly and it will dump a full mag at lightning speed and not miss a beat. Do it wrong and you will wish you bought a revolver.
Case flare ? if you think the BB bullet is giving a false reading on the amount of case flare
Then judge the case flare with the larger part of the bullet or try a Lyman M-die.
You don't need that much, just enough to start the bullet. Seat em and pull em till you get that part correct.
The bullet must remain at least .001 over bore diameter
It's not an option
After you get that part all fixed up, the cases should drop freely into your barrel. I doubt your pistol has a tight match grade chamber so a little bullet profile showing on the outside of the case is NO big deal.
As for the case head spacing on the case mouth, Remember 45 ACP cases get shorter as you re load them and if you drop a few empty cases into your barrel you will find they sit below the back of the barrel hood. So much for that, and it's a whole another story.
The lead bullet you are using has a sharp front shoulder up front. When you seat the bullet as in the picture above, ( flush with the barrel hood ) it is now at optimum seat dept and is heads spacing on the front shoulder of the bullet. End of that story.
Just a hint, if you seat the bullet so the back of the case is just .002 to .004 below the the barrel hood this will allow for a little lead in the beginning of the chamber.
This can happen as the bullets keep slamming into the the rifling lead. Don't over do it,
Just a little light showing below the hood.
Chamber some dummy rounds and confirm function while hand operating the slide.
The pistol should feed at least 2 0r 3 mag full of dummy rounds with out a problem.
If not and you have done all the above, then work with your seat dept or have the barrel throat area look at. The pistol should feed copper ball ammo with no problems as a base line
for it's reliability. If you get a jam with WC bullets look at how the bullet hits the feed ramp,
Remember you can't pour milk into a glass if you try pouring it into the side of the glass.
It has to be done correctly.
Lets not forget that a 3 point jam look a like can also be caused by an extractor that may be a little tite. Case head binds against the fire wall and hangs up because it can't get itself freely under the extractor and against the breach face (fire wall ).
I doubt this is the case here, So save that for last.
I can't type any more, I know it's a lot but if you get your 45 running right it will give you much pleasure.


Sam-- in Maine with the tired finger--

Edit to say:
if you continue to have a problem and we left anything out or made it unclear,
well we ain't going no place so get back here and explain what's happening.

[462]

"...so I might have only flared the case enough to start the bevel."

If you aren't using a Lyman M-die, you need to.

[wvmedic]

Sam thanks for your help in educating me, I do love my 1911 it is the best handgun I have ever shot. It shoots copper ball just fine, no hiccups at all. I had read a lot about the 1911 and SWC before I got my mould, most everything I read said that the SWC was a good fit with the 1911. Now that’s not to say I believe everything I read on the net, but there is a lot of folks who shot them. I know I will get my 1911 running smooth with the assistance of the folks here, I really do appreciate the guidance of the folks here such as yourself that share your knowledge with us newbies.

The extractor is fine, I will pay particular attention to the feed ramp though. I will also try to get a picture of a couple rounds as they are loaded now, and one like the above for comparison. I do have a hard time taking close-up pictures though, no tripod and my camera blurs easy.

Jeff

[RobS]

Rob as I was trying to go to sleep last night, one thing kept troubling me. The bottom band on the boolit was swagged to .450 while the top band was only swagged to .451. This makes me think I might not have flared the case mouth enough, the Lee 452-200 SWC boolit has a beveled base so I might have only flared the case enough to start the bevel. I will check this on my next rounds tomorrow, I know I should only change one thing at a time to rule out the problem. However I think that could have contributed to the problem also, after I check this out I might give the FCD another go just to rule it out as a problem.

Thanks, Jeff

Well here's one for you........cross section a piece of brass and you'll see it becomes thicker toward the head; the inside diameter becomes smaller and the brass becomes tougher. The M-die works well with this issue however use the M-die all you want and the FCD will set you back to where you are now. A WW water quenced bullet doesn't need an M-die as it's hard enough to combat case swage but the M-die or any expander which works the case the length of the seated boolit can help, especially if the boolits are softer.

[wvmedic]

Here are a couple of pictures of what I currently have, I will load some more tomorrow. These are what I have been working with.

Jeff

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk324/wvmedic31/Springfield%201911%20A1/100_3798.jpg
The boolit in the barrel is a snug fit, I can drop it in then turn the barrel over and it will not drop out. The factory round will drop out fine, my hand loads I have to pull out. It pulls out very easy, but will not just drop from gravity.
http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk324/wvmedic31/Springfield%201911%20A1/100_3801.jpg

[462]

Perhaps a kiss from a conventional taper crimp die...just enough to allow the round to fall out or the barrel, when up-ended. Then re-measure a pulled boolit.

[Doby45]

You have very weak fillout on the shoulder of your rounds. They should be crisp and sharp.. Mine come out of the mold sharp enough to cut paper and they only get sharper when I size them down. Thats how a SWC "cuts" such clean pretty holes.

[35remington]

As a gentle correction to what has been previously stated about the feed cycle....

The bullet nose should never, ever bump the barrel throat (ramp). It's a clearance. If the bullet bumps the barrel throat, the gun is much more likely to jam. In fact, a bumped barrel throat is often the cause of a three point.

Three point jams, among other things, are also a mistiming issue. The breakover of the round has not coincided with extractor pickup.

Experiment with overall lengths possible with your chamber. Feed timing is affected by the round's overall length and the propensity of your magazines to release earlier or later, depending upon the type you have.

Also, look into the type of magazine the gun was designed to use that was original equipment That would be JMB's. His designs reduce feeding angularity.

[gray wolf]

OH my goodness!!!
Say it ain't so.

In regards to the little reminder, perhaps I named a part wrong.
What I am trying to say and the picture shows is that the bullet hits the ramp cut in the frame, and then strikes the bottom of the barrel, before it his the top of the chamber. ( rub marks in the Pic. show this. ( rub mark in two places, one on the frame and one on the bottom of the barrel.
This pistol will eat anything, even a ham samich.
It will function with just about any mag and any feed lip shape,
There are many like it, but this one is mine. Perhaps I got an odd ball.
14# 15# 16# recoil spring standard firing pin stop or the modified one I use to retard the slide impulse a nano second (original 1911 design square bottom with a 1/16 radius )
So if I called this wrong please enlighten me, I always want to learn.
I think we are both correct, but perhaps took a wrong turn at the street sign that said name that part.

[Doby45]

I like ham samichs almost as much as nachos, just sayin.

[drklynoon]

WVMedic, The shoulder of my bullet is flush with my case mouth but I stilll get a jam every now and then. I'm using the same bullet. I don't know if you have one but my father has to run his finished rounds into a 8X57 mauser seating die just a little until his .45 chambers freely. It seems to not squarsh down the rear driving band as much. He has very few jams.

[Doby45]

A regular 45ACP taper crimp die will do the same thing. Does nothing to the rear band unless you go to the point of mangling the cartridge. Just apply VERY small amounts of the taper crimp die until the round chambers freely, do NOT use a Lee Factory Crimp Die unless you want your boolit to be sized down to SAAMI bullet specs.

[wvmedic]

Well I loaded up 32 rounds this morning, they fit the barrel better. It is still not 100%, I had 4 of the 32 jam. Still getting leading, more than last time. I will change my alloy mix and see how that works. Also I did apply just a bit of tapper crimp, and set the depth at 1.23. I am going to seat them a bit deeper next time. Also as with the leading, it is now the last 2/3 to 3/4 of the barrel.

Jeff

[Doby45]

Leading in the last bit of your barrel means the lube is running out. Leading in the first part/half means boolit fitment. Use some real lube even if you have to pan lube, hell I would even be willing to send you a stick for tesitng purposes.

Better yet let me send you a handful of H&G 68s lubed with Carnuba Red and see how they do for ya.

[gray wolf]

Better yet let me send you a handful of H&G 68s lubed with Carnuba Red and see how they do for ya.

That's a great offer from a nice person, >>>>>>>>>>> accept it

[R.M.]

Ya beet me to it Grey Wolf.
Anyway, I have used that Lee #68 clone a lot for Bullseye. BHN of 8 to 10 Carnuba Red lube
COL of 1.260" No jams, no lead. Most reliable.

[gray wolf]

One of your pictures shows a case in the barrel that looks like it is about a Half rim thickness to high. It is high because the front of the bullet is hitting the beginning of the rifling.
It does not take much to stick it in the barrel. Do not load proud of the barrel hood
If anything a few Thou. short. you need a little buffer there. if you get some lead build up from shooting it could tie up the pistol = game over.
If your bullets still wont drop freely out of the barrel
1--adjust the crimp ****
2-- bulged case *
3-- bullet way oversize and swelling the case *

[wvmedic]

Doby45, thank you kindly for the offer. I think I will have to make another with Lar for some carnuba red, I did get the alox from him. If you will excuse my ignorance, what is H&G 68s.

gray wolf, thanks again for sharing your knowledge with a beginner. I do have the boolits set now to where they drop freely, I need to seat them a little deeper. I think that will take care of my feeding problem. I think that I will make up some boolits with 50/50 WW/Pb air cooled and see how that goes. I might try some straight alox as well for lube, I have plenty on hand. I will give the carnuba red a go as well, I will have to pan lube for now though.

Jeff

[wvmedic]

I forgot to mention that I picked up some chore boy, it did a good job of getting the lead out. Man that barrel shines like new money now.

Jeff

[gray wolf]

Sounds great

[RobS]

If you want to continue using your TL mix then using two coats may help. Also if you are using the same powder charge then your pressures will be higher. 1) No gas blow by at the beginning of the barrel creates higher pressures/higher velocities and will test the lubes abilities as the booit continues down the barrel and 2) seating the boolits to a shorter COAL only adds to all this and creates yet more pressures.

Considering these two factors you may be able to drop a half a grain or so on the powder and be just fine with one coat of your TL. I have used TL mixes and straight Alox TL in the past and where as it can work there are limitations but it can work well if you have your ducks in a row. A traditional lube will give a person a bit more flexibility assuming everything is equal.

[RobS]

If you will excuse my ignorance, what is H&G 68s.


Jeff

The H&G 68 is Hensley and Gibbs mold number 68. The Lee 200 SWC you are using is similar in design.

Picture link:
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/molds/68_15.jpg

[35remington]

If you have the Lee HG 68 copy, correct overall length is more in the neighborhood of 1.250" with a little shoulder proud of the case mouth.

Try it.

Okay, just a few points.

First, the gap between frame ramp and barrel ramp is a clearance to prevent the bullet's nose from bouncing off the barrel ramp in a low to middle strike (I don't like the word barrel "throat" as I think it's incorrect nomenclature so bear with me here).

If the cartridge strikes the barrel ramp at all, it should be very lightly near the very top....just skimming the edge of the chamber, in other words. Having the bullet nose and cartridge body slide over the top of the barrel ramp rather than strike it below halfway keeps the barrel in its bed on the frame and prevents the barrel pivoting forward and up on the link. If the barrel leaves its bed due to a low barrel ramp strike, it moves forward as the round is trying to feed, and a three point jam is guaranteed.

What is not commonly known is the bullet nose strikes the frame ramp low on the first shot from the magazine, as this round has the most dip into the frame ramp. Subsequent rounds strike higher in a vertical pattern, with the last round hitting the top of the frame ramp just below the frame ramp/frame bed junction.

The small radius firing pin stop you're referring to does not delay the opening of the slide even a nanosecond more than a regular firing pin stop. Both the regular and small radius firing pin stop have the barrel unlocking from the slide at the exact same instant.....when the bullet leaves the barrel and ceases to pull the barrel lugs against the lugs recesses in the slide. It's absolutely impossible for the small radius stop to delay unlocking or delay the impulse given to the slide because unlocking is a fixed event......and only occurs when the bullet is gone. Recoil spring strength does not affect unlocking either. Full slide impulse is delivered the same way, with no delay, with both types of firing pin stops. The type of firing pin stop cannot affect the impulse given to the slide nor change the timeframe in which it is delivered.

What the small radius stop does do is change the leverage the slide has against the hammer.

Instead of pushing against the hammer high, the small radius stop pushes against the bottom of the hammer. This reduces the leverage the slide has against the hammerspring, and transmits more of the force of firing (and recoil) early in the cycle......when the slide has not travelled back very far. In effect, this delivers a bit more of the slide's energy early, and less of it is available in terms of velocity when the slide hits the frame at the end of its travel.

This does two things:

1) Makes the recoil feel less, even though the delivered recoil is exactly the same (it has to be.....physics cannot be denied) by transmitting more of it early, before the slide has travelled very far, and,

2) Reduces the slide's velocity when it hits the frame. This is most of the recoil we feel. Especially since it's a reciprocating mass that shifts the center of balance to the rear, a little less slide velocity (mv2) means significantly less slide impact. This reduction in frame strike energy makes the pistol "feel" softer to shoot, reduces muzzle flip and to some degree reduces slide/frame battering at the expense of a little more stress on the hammer pivot pin and that area of the frame.

Since JMB designed the pistol with a small radius stop, and the Army changed it to a large radius because it took "too much force to rack the slide" we are more used to the large radius stop. And yeah, I've got them in my 1911's too. The small radius stop from EGW, that is. Fitted those myself.

The principle is the same as a gas operated shotgun to some degree......the kick is delivered over a different timeframe; a pumpgun is all at once, while an automatic delivers the recoil in several stages, moving the gas piston, the bolt cocks the hammer, and finally the bolt strikes the rear of the receiver. The only part we really notice is the last bit, and since the recoil is the same, but delivered over a longer time frame, the small delivery of recoil as the bolt cocks the hammer, etc. is "lost" in the cycling of the weapon, and we do not notice it.

Punch an open safe door. You'll smash your knuckles and the door won't move much. Now use the same delivered force to push the door slowly. It will move with no trauma.

Energy delivered all at once is noticed. Energy delivered over a longer timeframe is perceived as less stressful.

Same principle. I have some helpful links to the small radius stop, should you wish to see it.

[gray wolf]

I can read also,
here are the gazillion pages about firing pin stops and there modification.
Very nice read and a good education. I had know trouble fitting mine, and it does make a difference.
As for the #68 bullet and it's OAL, I shoot and cast the ones from a H&G mold, I seat to 1.240 O A L. If 1.250 works for some people then use it.
I am not into pissing contest and It looks like this may be headed in that direction.
I know I could take it there, but I wont.
Here is the link for all you need to know about firing pin stops

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=13060&highlight=firing+stop

If that's not enough do a search and you can find another months worth of reading
Then you to can be an expert.

[BD]

It's pretty easy to get sideways with each other over nomenclature. Being adults, I think we can avoid that.

I have to say that I have no idea what a "three point" jam is, but 35 Rem offered as clear and concise explanation of the roll played by the FPS radius as I've seen. The relationship between the firing pin stop, the slide and the extractor is critical, and IMHO often requires some hand fitting to really get the reliability I want. In today's world, I don't know how much of this fitting gets done at the factory. And given the number of jamming complaints in new guns the last few years my suspicion is that many of the big manufacturers are making these parts with just a little looser tolerances so that every gun goes together fast and easily at the factory.

The round end of the extractor needs to fit very closely in the hole in the slide, and the claw needs to be parallel to the slot in the round end. The raised rear area of the stop needs to fit tightly between the rear vertical ends of it's housing in the slide. The stop should be slightly difficult to put in, even without an extractor in place, and it should take nearly perfect alignment to install with an extractor in place. If your stop would fall out without an extractor in place it has too much slop. If it is not more difficult to put in with an extractor in place, it's not bottoming in the extractor groove. The right side stepped edge of the extractor should fit tight and bottom in the slot in the extractor. If these parts are fit well, the round will stay under the extractor claw all the way to the chamber, and the bullet nose will not have the opportunity to contact any portion of the barrel or slide on it's way forward.

I can generally make a gun run with just a tight fit from the left shoulder of the slide stop where it meets the rear edge of the slide to the bottoming of the far right edge of the stop in the extractor groove. Unfortunately this is only a short term solution as using this fit shortcut the extractor will wear into the edge of the stop in a few thousand rounds. I had a new Kimber that came from the factory like this.

Sometimes it's an accumulation of several fairly small tolerances that will allow the extractor to rotate just a bit as the rim of the cartridge comes up under it, leading to jams. I see this in well worn guns that have run well for many thousands of rounds, than start to have the occasional jam with the cartridge wedged between the slide breach face and the barrel hood, commonly on the last round from a mag. The FPS is just a little loose, the extractor slot is just a little loose, the extractor is just a bit loose in it's hole, add in some wear on the link and pin and you have a haphazardly aligned cartridge trying to match up with a barrel that's also a little loose in the world. Kinda like two drunks trying to touch each other on the nose. Some times it works and sometimes they both fall down. I suppose you could experience this kind of issue in a new gun as well if the tolerances were a little loose and they happened to be stacked against you.

In any event, to get down to it, one needs to carefully disassemble the pistol and have a close look at the fitting of these parts. Another thing I always recommend is to remove the recoil spring and feed a magazine of dummy rounds through the gun closing the slide slowly with just the pressure of your thumb while you carefully watch whats going on. Among other things you'll learn why the rounds hit the feed ramp on the frame differently from the first round to the last. If there's a hiccup in the feed cycle you'll feel it.

I have a small collection of slide stops and extractors. You'd be surprised how much variation there is among these parts, even in new parts from the same manufacturer. IMHO one of the easiest ways to deal with this issue without a lot of hand fitting, is to have on hand a selection of stops and extractors from different manufacturers and try various combinations until you find what is the best fit combination for the particular slide of interest. The other route is to buy an oversized slide stop from EGW and fit it in 3 dimensions.

IMO over time the 1911 has gone from a carefully hand fitted pistol with some real slop designed into the slide to frame fit, (not so accurate but reliable), to the "modern" production line version with much tighter slide to frame fit and the slop all in the small parts, (accurate, but not so reliable).

BD

[475BH]

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk324/wvmedic31/Springfield%201911%20A1/100_3801.jpg[/QUOTE]
Your case shouldn't be longer than the hood.
When I started loading for the .45, I sized a case, seat a bullet deap, and crimped it until it would fit (headspace) in the barrel (like pic 2). Ended up at .470" dia. @ the case mouth.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/sbhg/T1005.jpg[/QUOTE]

Then I started to adjust the O.A.L. (started w/ a lil shoulder over the case mouth.
I shot 10 shot groups until I found a good group or was @ 1.270", and that was also the best groups (8 @ 1" or better @ 25 yds. consistently)

[BD]

I should apologise for being so long winded. It was a slow and frustrating day at work.

In this instance 475BH's photo's may pretty much tell the tale. A picture can be worth 1,000 words.

BD

[gray wolf]

Well here's the way I see it.
To me everyone here is my distant friend, and that is more important to me than the name of a part or a little mistake in terminology ( unless someone gets hurt from it )
My thinking is we are hear to help and not hinder. Some of us tend to come on a little strong sometimes or it may seem that way. But we need to remember we are miles away from the person that may have offended us. It's hard when you can't see a face.
I hope I didn't tick anyone off, if I did, it wasn't meant to.
You all know I live in Maine and anytime anyone wants to come up and shoot a little combat 45 with me it would be my pleasure. Beer is on me ( the first two ) Ha, Ha.

///))))))= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
///*

[Suo Gan]

Well I finally got to shoot my reloads yesterday, I loaded my 200 gr Lee SWC OAL 1.35. I loaded them with 6 gr. Unique, shot probably thirty and had maybe fifteen three point jams. Also had leading in the bore, the boolits were sized to .452, my barrel was slugged at .451. I lubed pre sizing and post sizing, used WW for the boolits.
Any Ideas as to what might be going on, also I am not sure there is any chore boy available to me locally. So how can I get the lead out, it isn’t real bad but there is lead in the barrel.

Jeff

Your lube probably, size might be too small (slugging only tells nominal diameter, if there are wide spots your slug will only tell you the tightest diameter). Try shooting a jack or two loaded backwards using a gallery load, it will take out a lot of the lead.

Time to buy Veral Smiths book, and some of his lube.

[wvmedic]

Shot some air cooled WW today, lubed with Darr lube. Man I suck at pan lubing, there was no leading though.

Also made up some 50/50 WW/Pb and tumble lubed those, might get a chance to shoot those tomorrow. If not maybe wed or thus.

Jeff