Did I throw the baby out with the bath water?

[t_dickinson]

I set up and smelted for the first time last night.

I started with the big bucket of 60/40 I got from a radiator shop.

Melted at 650-750 (playing with the temp to get is stable at 650) and skimmed off the dirt and crud.

Threw a crayon in (paper and all), lit it, and stirred it in. Skimmed off crud; repeat with another crayon.

Then the mix gets this gold skin kind of like a patina on a chrome muffler. I stir it in and it comes back so I skim it off and it returns again.

Am I skimming off tin or should I keep skimming off and tossing it away. I didn't get pics but the few ingots I made were frosty silver like a bead blasted stainless gun.

Any mistakes to point out before I continue?


I know this has been addressed but I like to read old posts and then post my own q's anyway in case someone else sees mine or new info comes out.

BTW, I used the Bass Pro fish fryer, a Griswold cast iron muffin pan, dollar store crayons and RayinNH's ladle (awesome pour with this ladle). The solder melted in 15 minutes.


Thank you.

[Bloodman14]

You certainly did! Throw the 'crud' back in, flux and stir, then cast your ingots/boolits. The gold hue forms because the lead is 'surface oxidizing'; when you throw a white crayon in, you will see the hue disappear. That is the lead reducing back into the melt.

[lwknight]

Also 60/40 solder needs only to be heated to 500 or so degrees to refine and skim crud out. Higher temperatures are needed only for reducing ozides back into the metal.

That golden color will always come back. Don't worry about it. Its just natural.

[BulletFactory]

Would 60 40 make good bullets? BHN?

[alfloyd]

"Would 60 40 make good bullets? BHN?"
BNH is around 22.
No they will be too hard and it is a waste of expensive tin.
Blend it with wheel weights or lead to make a casting alloy.
You only need about 2% tin, any more is a waste.

Lafaun

[t_dickinson]

So how do I know when to stop skimming?

How do I know if I got all the dross off without taking the tin with it?

Does the melted tin seperate from the lead ?

Is it melt, skim, flux, skim, flux, skim, cast?

AAAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[truckjohn]

Frequently, you are better off running the melt a little hotter rather than a little cooler.... I have run into trouble with alloy separating back out when you run it just barely hot enough to keep it all molten....

It has to do with Solidus/Liquidus phases and eutectic melting points - you tend to freeze out pure lead + very rich Tin/lead... until you get to the eutectic....

You are better off keeping it hot enough that it doesn't do that sort of thing.....

Second - If you are bottom pouring - leave most of the dross in there.... Gently stir, don't agitate.... It provides an oxygen barrier and an insulating cover over the top of the lead.....

Thanks

[Huntducks]

See all that black sh!! floating on top skim it off with the ladle it will be real lite in weight stir your pot with the ladle that gold stuff is just fine, 60% tin is way to much I would pour the 60/40 into real small ingots to mix into pure lead first choice or WW second remember WW are boolit ready just like they are so 60% tin will need lots of WW to come out with a lower hardness that's why the pure lead is a lot easier to deal with as far as hardhess.

Don't over think it and make it hard on yourself.

[Defcon-One]

Dross is the stuff that you don't want in your pot, like sand, carbon, dirt, rust, clips, etc. Fluxing is supposed to put the Tin and other good stuff back into the mix (by Reduction, which is the opposite of Oxidation). What's left on top after a good fluxing should be almost powdery and usually black, brown or grey. If you are skimming off something shiny or metalic, it is the good stuff. With one acception....

I had some Zinc in my pot from one or two missed Zinc weights the other day and skimmed off tuns of metal trying to get rid of it. It was grainy and, for lack of a better word, puffy looking. Luckily it was a small, 5 pound, batch and I lost little. That's the first time I have ever had much metal in my skimmed off dross, so I knew something was really wrong.

Usually, my dross looks more like burnt sand and weighs very little.

I am going to try sawdust for fluxing from now on instead of the candle wax that I usually use. From what I have heard here and read, it is the best thing to use. It lifts dirt out of the mix very well, reduces the good metal back into the alloy and the carbon coats the surface of the melt and protects it from more oxidation. One other thing, it is best to flux once before you, "....skim off the dirt and crud."

2% Tin is all that I use in my Standard Bullet Alloy!

[RugerFan]

"Would 60 40 make good bullets? BHN?"
BNH is around 22.
No they will be too hard and it is a waste of expensive tin.
Blend it with wheel weights or lead to make a casting alloy.
You only need about 2% tin, any more is a waste.

Lafaun

22 BHN isn't necessarily too hard. Depends on the application but yes, a waste of good tin. There are better ways to get to BHN 22.

[t_dickinson]

Lots of good stuff coming in. Thanks guys. I am in fact making very small ingots; about 3/4 lbs.

I have more WW than I will use RIGHT NOW so I will save the tin for a time when it's needed.

I read where one guy casts the tin into boolits so he can add eact amounts. I think that's a good idea.

I have heard of the sawdust blowing up on people; will my crayons suffice. How many should I use to flux about 30 lbs? I threw in one, skimmed and repeated.

48 for a buck so I don't mind using more than necessary to be on the safe side.

[Defcon-One]

Crayons are wax. My wax candles have always worked for me. I use about a 1" x 1" peice for 50 lbs. Do it twice and it gets pretty clean and reduces nicely.

I'm still gonna try the sawdust. I'll make sure that it is very dry, so as to avoid any fireworks!

[plainsman456]

If the sawdust has moisture in it and you stir it into the mix it will explode out of the pot.
If you are using a bottom pour pot you can leave the sawdust on top while making your ingots.

[nouseforaname1246]

i use sawdust. it works great and it doesn't stink like using crayons. Swung by the local cabinetmaking shop and grabbed a 5 gal bucket worth of sawdust for nothing, enough to last me probably the rest of my life.

Sawdust does absorb moisture from the air, but that really isnt a problem as long as you let it sit on top of the pot for about 30 sec to dry out before you stir it. (water on TOP of molten lead isnt a problem. water UNDER lead is what causes the tinsel fairy to drop in.)

Your sawdust could be soaking wet and as long as you let it sit on top of the lead first, you wont have any fireworks.

[badgeredd]

Let your sawdust sit on top until it starts to blacken and has smoked a while. At that point (assuming you used a reasonable amount of sawdust), the moisture has been driven out. As with most things in this hobby a little goes a long ways, so the idea that more is better usually is wrong. :bigsmyl2:

Edd

[Fishman]

A griswold muffin pan!? Oh the horror!

Use the cheap Chinese junk and save that classic cast iron for cooking in :)

[t_dickinson]

Whats wrong with the Griswold pan? Are they junk? Picked it up for 10 bucks.

[Russ in WY]

Nothing Wrong with the Griswold , its Top of the Line Cast iron Cooking Iron .. That"s all & kind of a Waste to use it for lead work , like the previous gentleman mentioned , get some Cheap Made in China stuff for casting, & keep the Griswold stuff for Cooking. My 2¢ .. Russ.

[evan price]

Whats wrong with the Griswold pan? Are they junk? Picked it up for 10 bucks.

Nothing WRONG with Griswold, it's just like using mahogany for firewood...!

[montana_charlie]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=170203&postcount=17

[t_dickinson]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=170203&postcount=17

It's all becoming clear now. I've been reading some of your other posts. You're a good teacher.

[Sensai]

t_dickenson, one of the ways that you can distinguish "dross" from the metal is the texture of the surface. When the melt is hot enough the surface will be smooth, the dross will normally be powdery or granular. If the surface is not smooth either you need more heat or you have an unwanted contaminant. The coloration of the surface is an indication of the alloy content, but only an indication. Pure lead has a bluish tint, high tin has a golden tint and others will show up as you see different alloys. The colors can change with heat variations, too. The big thing to remember is that if the dross that you remove is heavy, something's not right and your removing metal. More fluxing and/or more heat will normally get the metal back into the melt. If you know what metal content you started with you shouldn't be having to remove too much metal. If you have the melt up to 650 or so and it still looks like oatmeal on top, we may have to start thinking about the terrible Z. But if you know that you started with 60/40, that's not a problem.

[SciFiJim]

Lots of good stuff coming in. Thanks guys. I am in fact making very small ingots; about 3/4 lbs.

You might make them even smaller. I pour just enough radiator solder to cover the bottom of a muffin tin. It makes about a 2-3 oz ingot. Smaller ingots of solder are always better. It's easier to add another ingot if needed, but tough to cut a large ingot in half.

[t_dickinson]

Thanks for the tip. I read somewhere that a guy casts tin into boolits so he can be VERY precise about the weight. Makes sense to me.

Also good practice for me to get used to the process before I pop my cherry on the real deal.

[t_dickinson]

test. figured out the signature thing.