9-10 bhn

[GSP7]

Im buying and trying different bullets for my 44mag.( I dont cast my own Yet)
Dry Creek bullets makes a special order Lyman #429421 bullet that he says is 9-10 BHN.

Is that "way" too soft for a 44 mag , or should I just try it and see how it works.

I do load varying velocity for my 44, unique , herco etc and 2400 usually dont go max velocity on my reloads

He says his production bullets with other productin molds are 19-20 BHN

[sisiphunter]

just keep it low pressure, should be fine I would think....it is a little low, but as long as they are sized right should be fine would think

[Rico1950]

Just make sure they are sized to fit Your cylinder throats.

[sqlbullet]

If they are sized right, I bet they are fine.

[44man]

Im buying and trying different bullets for my 44mag.( I dont cast my own Yet)
Dry Creek bullets makes a special order Lyman #429421 bullet that he says is 9-10 BHN.

Is that "way" too soft for a 44 mag , or should I just try it and see how it works.

I do load varying velocity for my 44, unique , herco etc and 2400 usually dont go max velocity on my reloads

He says his production bullets with other productin molds are 19-20 BHN
Is he GOOFY? That is almost pure lead! Do you have any idea what pressure will do to that boolit? Why use a mold when a chunk of lead wire will do as good?
You need water dropped WW metal at 22 bhn or even harder, much harder.
The 429421 is a PB and if you get that soft boolit to shoot, you better post it and show pictures.

[GSP7]

44man, I dont know whats up with that 9-10bhn keith bullets. He said he was going to cast some harder later. I found out that he had the lyman 429421 mold from the article on Gunblast where thay used his bullets

[TCLouis]

I think one problem you will run into if you try to load that long nosed boolit over hot loads is that the nose will slump . . .

Just a guess on my part you understand.

[txbirdman]

Wasn't Keith's favorite alloy 16:1 (lead to tin). I wonder what BHN that is? Surely EK could have used any alloy he desired so why did he choose one that soft? As I recall he also sized his bullets .429. Maybe Mrs. Keith was a whiz at cleaning leaded bores or maybe EK was on to something.

[MtGun44]

I've had good results with 8 BHN 429421s in some .44 mags, even with fairly hot loads
like 10 gr Unique. Probably would have some chance of lost accy with a full house H110
load, but give it a try. Use a good soft lube and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

actually 9bhn is alot closer to straight ww then it is pure. Plenty hard enough for most 44 mag usage even with a plain base in a GOOD gun. Would it give the best possible accuracy for that gun? I doubt it. Harder will usually do better. But those bullets would be plenty good for general purpose shooting and hunting.

[BABore]

One of the most accurate loads in my Ruger SBH Hunter is my version of the 429421, in HP form, cast from 50/50 WW-Pb, air cooled for 9-10 bhn. I load it with 24.5 grs of WW 296 and a CCI 350 primer. 50 yard groups run 1 to 1 1/4 inches for 5 shot using a 2x scope. It is very stable and accurate out past 300 yards as well. I shoot the same soft alloy in my 480 Ruger with full pressure loads and excellent accuracy.

Don't buy into that "its gotta be a hard boolit" garbage to shoot well. Try both hard and softer alloys in YOUR GUN, with identical load workups, and let YOUR GUN tell you what it wants. There's too much "follow the budda" going on here and not enough "try it and see for yourself".

[45 2.1]

You need water dropped WW metal at 22 bhn or even harder, much harder. Same old same old ......... again.

The 429421 is a PB and if you get that soft boolit to shoot, you better post it and show pictures. Thats been done to you a couple of times after your "hard boolit" claims, you didn't say too much about the pictures, groups shown and witnesses to the same... at long range even. You should realize that yours isn't the only way by now.

[garbear]

One of the most accurate loads in my Ruger SBH Hunter is my version of the 429421, in HP form, cast from 50/50 WW-Pb, air cooled for 9-10 bhn. I load it with 24.5 grs of WW 296 and a CCI 350 primer. 50 yard groups run 1 to 1 1/4 inches for 5 shot using a 2x scope. It is very stable and accurate out past 300 yards as well. I shoot the same soft alloy in my 480 Ruger with full pressure loads and excellent accuracy.

Don't buy into that "its gotta be a hard boolit" garbage to shoot well. Try both hard and softer alloys in YOUR GUN, with identical load workups, and let YOUR GUN tell you what it wants. There's too much "follow the budda" going on here and not enough "try it and see for yourself".

Right on the money.

[pdawg_shooter]

I use air cooled wheel weight bullets at full loads in all my handguns. 45/45/10 lube and yes, 3 of them are magnums. Works fine for me anyway.

[44man]

You need water dropped WW metal at 22 bhn or even harder, much harder. Same old same old ......... again.

The 429421 is a PB and if you get that soft boolit to shoot, you better post it and show pictures. Thats been done to you a couple of times after your "hard boolit" claims, you didn't say too much about the pictures, groups shown and witnesses to the same... at long range even. You should realize that yours isn't the only way by now.
No problem, just ask Whitworth and Bioman. They both shoot like I do. I can list a bunch more but they are not on any sites.
I do show pictures all the time, I have hundreds of targets.
Why is it nobody else does?

[HammerMTB]

I shoot 11BHN boolits in a .44Mag often. Up to about 1000FPS it's really not a problem. As you get into Magnum velocities, you will need something harder.
I even have some old .44 swaged boolits that Speer used to (still do???) sell. They are only loaded to 800FPS, but they are near pure, and shoot fine. More a cowboy or plinking load, but shows that soft boolits can work, it's more matching size to gun and velocities to the rest.

[44man]

One of the most accurate loads in my Ruger SBH Hunter is my version of the 429421, in HP form, cast from 50/50 WW-Pb, air cooled for 9-10 bhn. I load it with 24.5 grs of WW 296 and a CCI 350 primer. 50 yard groups run 1 to 1 1/4 inches for 5 shot using a 2x scope. It is very stable and accurate out past 300 yards as well. I shoot the same soft alloy in my 480 Ruger with full pressure loads and excellent accuracy.

Don't buy into that "its gotta be a hard boolit" garbage to shoot well. Try both hard and softer alloys in YOUR GUN, with identical load workups, and let YOUR GUN tell you what it wants. There's too much "follow the budda" going on here and not enough "try it and see for yourself".
It is not HARD, it is tough.
Bruce, you sent me a lot of great boolits to test and I got some great accuracy but there are some left, still in the boxes and they are all Keith style and PB that will not work.
I checked a bunch just now and they run from 8 to 14 BHN. You also told me to oven harden them to 22 BHN. That is what I had to do to get your GC boolits to shoot but PB will not.
I profess to not being able to shoot lead too soft or not tough enough to maintain the cast shape or to not skid rifling, never could, can't and never will.
I would really like to see actual 50 yd and 300 yard groups and pictures of recovered soft 429421 boolits. I think you have turned them into short WFN boolits that always shoot better in the end.
Are you shooting the on the right or the one on the left?
I much prefer to shoot a boolit that looks like the one I cast.
You make the best molds and boolits ever but I will always dispute your choice of alloy.
No matter, we will always be friends and always be at odds over lead.
45 2.1 never believes what we shoot. Notice I said WE, not just me. I watched Bioman shoot my boolits into 1/2" groups time and again at 50 yards from bags with a new SBH Hunter with an Ultra Dot. Whitworth hits cans at 100 off hand with my boolits and all of his revolvers.
This has NEVER been about me, only about the revolver and what proper loads do.
Whitworth was over with his new .500 JRH and after sighting it, I put up a can at 100 yards. He shot and it did not fall so I took the next shot and it fell off the rail.
Maybe you should ask others that shoot with me before calling me nuts.

[44man]

45 2.1, drive here and I will get Bioman and Whitworth to join us.
Put your money down and we will be more then happy to take it, bring a lot! We want more guns! :bigsmyl2:
We will start with 1" targets at 100 yards and move to beer cans at 200 and if we go next door, we might be able to get 300 if I cut a tree down. I won't even shoot, no need.

[BABore]

44man,

If I drive the snot out a soft Keith-style boolit and I get fine accuracy all the way out to 400 yards, who gives a rat's behind what the boolit looks like if it kills just fine. The target nor deer don't really seem to care. The only skids marks I care about are the ones in my drawers. If it shoots, it shoots.

Of course I make fine looking and shooting boolits. That's why I can get them to shoot so good and don't have to use them hard alloys. Need help?:brokenima

[Bass Ackward]

Actually, a bullet that compresses the lube grooves will have a higher BC and you don't have to worry about unbalancing lube in the grooves. It will stabilize farther because it is now shorter and requires less of a velocity-RPM combination.


Solid brass of 40 BHN begins to obturate, slump, compress regardless of what we call it, at 40k psi.

So the flawed part of the logic is that pushing a 20 or 22 BHN bullet isn't going to make it do the same thing just because it's 20 or 22 BHN. I lost my chart, but I believe that was around 24k psi.

And it's not just hardness, but the length (weight) also. Heavy for caliber bullets will collapse sooner than a light one at the same hardness. (inertia)

My point is that who knows for sure? Cause I have shot soft bullets that still had the same grease grooves. In fact, I have never recovered one that looks like the pictures.

So why make the assumption it happens to ALL soft slugs? If you have lube sealed, the strongest part of the bullet is the groove no matter how hard the bullet is. It is impossible to compress. (hydraulics)

So is it really a gas check? Or is it a lube (compression) seal?

[44man]

44man,

If I drive the snot out a soft Keith-style boolit and I get fine accuracy all the way out to 400 yards, who gives a rat's behind what the boolit looks like if it kills just fine. The target nor deer don't really seem to care. The only skids marks I care about are the ones in my drawers. If it shoots, it shoots.

Of course I make fine looking and shooting boolits. That's why I can get them to shoot so good and don't have to use them hard alloys. Need help?:brokenima
Nope, no help, I am happy.
You do make the best boolits too. If they shape up right I guess it doesn't matter but I will never wrap my head around soft lead. I don't like lead too hard either, just right works for me.
Someday I want some of your molds but don't hold your breath. I just lost another $648 a year from the PBGC that took over my retirement. I lost $6600 the first year. I had to quit IHMSA and BPCR, can't fly my RC planes any more.
Every single boolit must count now so I will not try anything that has caused a problem in the past.
I HAVE to stay with what works.
Would you believe that I had to pay the feds and the state taxes? I need to learn Spanish!
No sympathy, I think being poor has made me work harder and learn more. Now if I could get my old printer to work when it is out of ink, that would top it off! ;-)

[Bass Ackward]

RC planes?

Want a used yo-yo cheap?

I have an Erector set around here somewhere, but some of the pieces are gone.

[white eagle]

everyone has different interests

[williamwaco]

I have shot about a zillion .44 mags and .357 mags with 16/1 and 20/1 alloys.
(10/1 IS ABOUT bnh 11 according to Lyman). The others are softer. One web site said 40/1 is about BNH 6.5. I have never used it.

I am currently using recovered bullet cores I buy from EBAY. They test about BNH 9 with my Lee tester. They cast very nicely and shoot 2" groups at 50 yards from my .357 Magnum at about 1100 fps. These loads produce NO LEADING!

I don't know anything about water dropped or heat treated bullets. Never found any need for a hard bullet in a handgun. I do have some Linotype. Use it for .30 cal rifle bullets. Works great in that application.

If you want to do all those extra steps to harder your bullets, enjoy yourself. ( Or buy some Linotype. You can get it around here for the same price as wheel weights or scrap lead.)

Bill says: You are not going to reduce leading by making the bullets harder. You reduce leading by using a good lube and making the bullet fit the gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

Well as most of you know i side with 44man on this. Sure a guy can get soft lead to shoot. Hell with enough load development time and money you could probably get bubble gum to shoot. Hard lead is just easier to work up loads for. It does not as some claim cause leading at low velocitys. At least not at my house and I dont think in all my years of loading for handguns ive ever had a favorite load for any handgun that did its best with soft lead. i never shoot anything softer then ww anymore and for the most part my alloy selection starts at #2. I think theres a sweet spot between #2 and 5050 ww/lino that accuracy about peaks at. Harder is not worse it just doesnt show much if any improvement over that level. Bring your gun over that perfers soft bullets to hard and ill either show you a more accurate load or show you that your gun is out of spec and needs to be fixed. Soft lead is fine for rolling beer cans at 25 yards or less but when you really want to find the absoulte best accuracy your gun will produce give me hard lead everytime. Now add a gas check to that hard well designed bullet and youll really get results. I think most guys that are happy with soft lead are happy with 3 inch 25 yard groups (or dont even shoot groups) or have one or two handguns and have all the time in the world to fool with every powder, primer, bullet design, and bullet lube on the market.

[44man]

Lloyd hit on it! [smilie=l:
Time, work, a lot of money and you might find only one thing that works in only one gun.
If I had 50 .44 mags spread out on the floor, ALL must shoot the same load! :holysheep
If one needs .000345% tin and the other wants .5% antimony or one wants soft and another hard----ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MINDS?
For the guy that has a bunch of guns in one caliber and needs a whole volume 4" thick for each gun, have you ever asked yourself WHY?
Bring your gun here, I will set you at my bench, give you my rounds and if you don't get an inch at 50 yards, you are one sad shot! Just maybe I could get you to around an inch at 100. :takinWiz:
There will be no 10 yard can rolling allowed here! [smilie=l:

[Bass Ackward]

You guys need to move on to something interesting. Targets, groups, and cans get boring and certainly ain't everything, especially with a real handgun.

Can I shoot at the RC planes? Now that will be interesting. Try that with a do-hicky on top. :grin:

[45 2.1]

45 2.1 never believes what we shoot. Notice I said WE, not just me.

Obviously, you need to reread what I wrote. That was... " You should realize that yours isn't the only way by now.".
A lot of people can get excellent accuracy with hard boolits. You among others. Not everyone can with soft.......... that takes a degree of knowledge that is far past hard mentality. BTW, one shot on a can does NOT have anything to do with a group nor does hard technology work with small low pressure cartridges, especially when you hunt with them.


45 2.1, drive here and I will get Bioman and Whitworth to join us.
Put your money down and we will be more then happy to take it, bring a lot! We want more guns! :bigsmyl2:
We will start with 1" targets at 100 yards and move to beer cans at 200 and if we go next door, we might be able to get 300 if I cut a tree down. I won't even shoot, no need.

I really have no interest in what your doing. I played those games over twenty years ago. I know they work fine, but I don't limit myself doing it your way now. Other, harder to do items interest me now.

[44man]

Obviously, you need to reread what I wrote. That was... " You should realize that yours isn't the only way by now.".
A lot of people can get excellent accuracy with hard boolits. You among others. Not everyone can with soft.......... that takes a degree of knowledge that is far past hard mentality. BTW, one shot on a can does NOT have anything to do with a group nor does hard technology work with small low pressure cartridges, especially when you hunt with them.



I really have no interest in what your doing. I played those games over twenty years ago. I know they work fine, but I don't limit myself doing it your way now. Other, harder to do items interest me now.
You should have been here today. Both rear lawn mower tires kept going flat so I went and bought inner tubes. Can you believe $33 for them? :groner:
You would have enjoyed getting them things in! :holysheep
But accuracy is not a game. I spent way over 50 years with stuff that doesn't work and all has been put in the delete bin. It took years to do it right and I would be a fool to go back.
Anyone can make a gun go bang and cure leading but I use a revolver to hit what I shoot at---at ANY range because I hunt and do not need anything that gives a problem.

[45 2.1]

You should have been here today. Both rear lawn mower tires kept going flat so I went and bought inner tubes. Can you believe $33 for them? :groner:
You would have enjoyed getting them things in! :holysheep
But accuracy is not a game. I spent way over 50 years with stuff that doesn't work and all has been put in the delete bin. It took years to do it right and I would be a fool to go back.
Anyone can make a gun go bang and cure leading but I use a revolver to hit what I shoot at---at ANY range because I hunt and do not need anything that gives a problem.

Always avoiding answering when you get caught........ [smilie=1:[smilie=1:

Hmmm......... sniping at game isn't ethical. So, just how far do you think is ethical to shoot at unwounded small or even large game for the first shot. Magnum idealogology is your thing it seems. It's much more fun to see how close you can get, then shoot............. not snipe.

[pls1911]

This thread hurts my head.
Whatever works for you is good, and it may or may not work for me... if Your happy, go for it.
My alloy? HAH! "Whatcha got " in the pot, which is normally a rough 50/50 mixture of reclaimed roofing lead and something around WW/or #2.
So long as it casts fine and I can make lot sizes of about 200 bullets +/- 1 grain out of 250-400gr bullet weight, I'm happy, as this mix still has enough antimony to heat treat to 28 for rifles , or shoot 10-14 in pistols or 45/70s.
Some folks here called it a sweet spot, and it's a lot wider than most folks believe.

[cajun shooter]

I have for the most part of my 63 years used bullets that are in the 9-12 BHN class. Most WW's that I receive today are very close to the 9BHN or 20-1 alloy. Do you know how much game and black powder target championships have been won with bullets in this class? Most leading problems today is caused by companies who care nothing about the customer but about selling bullets without dents. Laser- Cast would be a good one. Go to Raton, NM and tell all the shooters that are there that they must use a 22 BHN bullet to even shoot long range much less hit anything. If Mike Venturino was to read this 44 Man I think he would think that you fell and hurt your head. Even the great Elmer Keith whom I had the pleasure of talking to twice in my life used bullets that were in the 20-1 alloy range. How hard was the bullet that killed the Indian at Adobe Wells? A range of over 1500 yards which should not have reached the target 44 man? Unreal thinking Sir and as my old pappy would have said. That bullet hole in that can could have been from 25 yards as well as any other distance.

[FN in MT]

Lets get back to the original subject here...that was interesting.

FN in MT

[44man]

I have for the most part of my 63 years used bullets that are in the 9-12 BHN class. Most WW's that I receive today are very close to the 9BHN or 20-1 alloy. Do you know how much game and black powder target championships have been won with bullets in this class? Most leading problems today is caused by companies who care nothing about the customer but about selling bullets without dents. Laser- Cast would be a good one. Go to Raton, NM and tell all the shooters that are there that they must use a 22 BHN bullet to even shoot long range much less hit anything. If Mike Venturino was to read this 44 Man I think he would think that you fell and hurt your head. Even the great Elmer Keith whom I had the pleasure of talking to twice in my life used bullets that were in the 20-1 alloy range. How hard was the bullet that killed the Indian at Adobe Wells? A range of over 1500 yards which should not have reached the target 44 man? Unreal thinking Sir and as my old pappy would have said. That bullet hole in that can could have been from 25 yards as well as any other distance.
In some ways you are correct. I use a LOT of pure lead and pure with tin. BP and BPCR but NEVER with smokeless. Rifles and pistols are different then revolvers. BP in a revolver is fine with soft lead. Old powders that duplicated BP were fine with soft.
I never stand there and blast 200 rounds at a tin can at 25 yards. I hunt and I put 5 rounds in a revolver and come back with a deer and 4 rounds left, no matter if it is 20 yards or 100.
I have killed many deer with a cap and ball and pure lead balls but don't expect to see me with pure lead in a .44 mag.
45 2.1's analogy is funny. I shoot revolvers to 500 meters, that is 547 yards to the unwashed. But I limit hunting to 100 yards or less, and I prefer less---way less. I do NOT snipe, I shoot to kill and will not shoot unless I am sure. I depend on accuracy first, that NEVER comes in second or third.
Then you have the gall to call me a liar with the can! Every single one here has been invited to come and shoot with me and so are you. I will make YOU do that at 100 yards.
I don't like keyboard talk, I want to see what some can do with truthful pictures. Show the bad, the good and the ugly instead of hiding.

[white eagle]

jealously
is what it is 44

[Frank]

44man:
I don't like keyboard talk, I want to see what some can do with truthful pictures. Show the bad, the good and the ugly instead of hiding.
The really funny thing is you never see from those who complain about 44man their groups. If soft is so good, then they need to show us what they can do. Anything else, like "shoots great" or "works for me" is just keyboard shooting. Don't bother mentioning gun writers because remember, fame doesn't rub off. You have to show your work, your load and what you can do with whatever combination you have, to earn respect here, like 44man has done.

[Lloyd Smale]

never bought into that show me your group ****. To many are so egotistical that you could never trust the distance they were shot at or even the load or gun they were shot out of. Real easy to shoot a 25 yard one hole group with a jacketed bullet out of a scoped rifle and then claim its a 200 yard off hand pistol shot. Im not accusing anyone hear of being dishonest im just saying that unless i see it with my own eyes i dont buy into it. Ive just heard to many locals claim this or that gun will shoot exceptionly well and when i went to the range with them all i heard was excuses. Not that even they were lieing. There favorite rifle might have shot a one time 3 shot group that would make the stars align but that doesnt mean its going to do it consistantly. I can take about any handgun and shoot it enough with most loads and eventually get a lucky load that will impress everyone hear. Sorry guys but i just dont buy into the one inch 100 yard wheelgun stuff. Not a single shooter ive ever met is good enough even with a good gun to do that consistantly and ive shot with some of the best handgunners in this country.

[Bass Ackward]

You have to show your work, your load and what you can do with whatever combination you have, to earn respect here, like 44man has done.




That's why I tech the hard routine these days. People want instant gratification right down to the exact load.

Just like a 30 caliber, 10 twist rifle has the easiest accuracy in the 1800 to 1900 fps area. You just load something, anything hard enough that will get you there with the heaviest bullet available that you can launch well and it works fairly well.

Same with a 44. You don't have to know much or do anything special. It just happens. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Cast 101.

So if I give you a load that falls within that range I look like a hero, as long as your gun can launch it well. So what if your gun requires a jacketed bullet to hold and do that? What if it doesn't and it can use lead with 35 BHN? How about if it can get by with 24? 15? What if you change designs and that gun can do it with just 8 BHN?

At what BHN does a man become a liar or lose credibility?

[357shooter]

Lloyd: I've gotta admit that off-hand I can't even hold 1 inch groups at 25 yards with a 6 inch 357 magnum revolver. I don't get to shoot distances greater than that as I'm limited to the local range.

To test the accuracy of handloads it takes a rest and either a red dot or a my current favorite Simmons 4X scope. These eyes need help and iron sites make it tough.

I can't really relate with shooting a 1 inch or 4 inch group at 100 yards. I figured it's just me though. It's taken a lot of load development and a bunch of lead to get to <1.0 inches at 25y, so I'm a pretty happy with that. Even then, not all groups of a load shoot that tight. With all the help (I don't have a ransom rest) the shooter messes up often, and bullets vary a bit.

I've not ever shot less a single group less than .5 inches... it's driving me nuts. Even a lucky group would be OK with me.

Just thought a different perspective might cool things down a bit. Maybe.

[subsonic]

Without stirring it up here, I think the difference between perspectives on hard vs soft is what your goal is.

If your goal is to mess around and try to make things work, experiment, and generally you have a lot of time to play around, (in revolvers) and find what might work some of the time, under some circumstances, at an accuracy level that is acceptable for what you are trying to do (hit a 7yd target or even a 3" shoot n see at 25yd), soft probably will work for you.

If you cast/load not because you are into casting and loading, but because you are into shooting your guns cheaply and/or in volume and your goal is to hit a certain target at a certain range (like a deer, or steel silhouette), and no variable is overlooked in that search, including modifying the gun, you probably have a different outlook and would lean toward the hard side of this debate.

Just what I think here. As in things that you enjoy, there really is no "right or wrong", only what works to meet your goal.

I load and cast to shoot, not the other way around. Finding something that works without multiple failed attempts and wasted components and time is important to me. Becoming a master caster wizard that can shoot any alloy is not really a goal of mine. Neither is crutching a mismatched gun with wrong size throats or a constricted bore by shooting a boolit that has to obturate in order to hit a pie plate at 25yd reliably. I'd sell that one or send it off to fix it, or even attempt a fix myself. My accuracy goals are very high - and I can drive the gun well enough to know the difference because I practice a lot - hence the need for lots of ammo.

[44man]

never bought into that show me your group ****. To many are so egotistical that you could never trust the distance they were shot at or even the load or gun they were shot out of. Real easy to shoot a 25 yard one hole group with a jacketed bullet out of a scoped rifle and then claim its a 200 yard off hand pistol shot. Im not accusing anyone hear of being dishonest im just saying that unless i see it with my own eyes i dont buy into it. Ive just heard to many locals claim this or that gun will shoot exceptionly well and when i went to the range with them all i heard was excuses. Not that even they were lieing. There favorite rifle might have shot a one time 3 shot group that would make the stars align but that doesnt mean its going to do it consistantly. I can take about any handgun and shoot it enough with most loads and eventually get a lucky load that will impress everyone hear. Sorry guys but i just dont buy into the one inch 100 yard wheelgun stuff. Not a single shooter ive ever met is good enough even with a good gun to do that consistantly and ive shot with some of the best handgunners in this country.
You hit on the problem in a nut shell! :drinks: Who do you trust? I might ask to see but what would I be shown?
I can tell you for a fact that my BFR revolvers will do an inch or less at 100 yards and only I am the weak link, the loose nut behind the grip. The SRH can hit cans at 200 yards and will shoot neck and neck with a BFR.
Whitworth and Bioman both do it too, maybe you should talk with them. We do it over and over, not one luck group and the only time a boolit misses is US and eyesight problems. I can call a miss before seeing where it went because the boolit goes to the sights.
Every single person here has an invite to come and shoot! I would come to you if I didn't have to live on SS.
The claim your local shooters make is the same we read here all day! :violin:
If you came here you would not have to watch us, I would let you do it.
Ask what a .44 SBH can really do. I was playing with my Wichita on this chicken at 200 meters and before I went down to get it, I shot my last 2 shots with my .44 from Creedmore---NOT bags. See the 2 holes? Yeah, open sights at 200 meters.

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale:
never bought into that show me your group ****. To many are so egotistical that you could never trust the distance they were shot at or even the load or gun they were shot out of. Real easy to shoot a 25 yard one hole group with a jacketed bullet out of a scoped rifle and then claim its a 200 yard off hand pistol shot. Im not accusing anyone hear of being dishonest im just saying that unless i see it with my own eyes i dont buy into it. Ive just heard to many locals claim this or that gun will shoot exceptionly well and when i went to the range with them all i heard was excuses. Not that even they were lieing. There favorite rifle might have shot a one time 3 shot group that would make the stars align but that doesnt mean its going to do it consistantly. I can take about any handgun and shoot it enough with most loads and eventually get a lucky load that will impress everyone hear. Sorry guys but i just dont buy into the one inch 100 yard wheelgun stuff. Not a single shooter ive ever met is good enough even with a good gun to do that consistantly and ive shot with some of the best handgunners in this country.

I can tell looking at a target when the truth is told. You know how I can tell? They put the load on it, and I try it. If it doesn't work, I let them know. Maybe now, that it has recently been suggested, I need to try everything, like shooting even soft boolits, as if to prove someone else's point. But why do I need to do that, if they don't even show me their target, their load and what they are doing? See what I mean? Why waste time if they don't show their work?

Shooting a lot of rounds every week doesn't make up for anything either. I read an article in Handloader recently Brian Pierce article with stiff loads for 45 Colt. More powder than I was using in my revolver. But he published his load, no groups shown, and gave velocity. I tested it and the loads grouped bad. It wasn't me, it was his load. He was just proving that 24.5 grains with a 300 grn boolit will go bang in a Ruger. Maybe he thinks it "shoots great", or "works for me", and it probably does sell the magazine. But because he was a gun writer, I guess I didn't need to see his target and his load. I relied on his word, tested it and proved the load a failure on it's own.

[BABore]

You hit on the problem in a nut shell! :drinks: Who do you trust? I might ask to see but what would I be shown?
I can tell you for a fact that my BFR revolvers will do an inch or less at 100 yards and only I am the weak link, the loose nut behind the grip. The SRH can hit cans at 200 yards and will shoot neck and neck with a BFR.
Whitworth and Bioman both do it too, maybe you should talk with them. We do it over and over, not one luck group and the only time a boolit misses is US and eyesight problems. I can call a miss before seeing where it went because the boolit goes to the sights.
Every single person here has an invite to come and shoot! I would come to you if I didn't have to live on SS.
The claim your local shooters make is the same we read here all day! :violin:
If you came here you would not have to watch us, I would let you do it.
Ask what a .44 SBH can really do. I was playing with my Wichita on this chicken at 200 meters and before I went down to get it, I shot my last 2 shots with my .44 from Creedmore---NOT bags. See the 2 holes? Yeah, open sights at 200 meters.

You seem to have a very selective memory.

I have posted groups on various thread where accuracy claims were brought up. Group pictures at 50, 100 and 200 yards. 5 to 10 shot groups, not a couple holes in a beer can. Both myself and 45 2.1 have made claims of groups fired at up to 385 yards with handguns and soft, 9-10 bhn boolits. No pictures either. Pictures that both you and Lloyd agree that could be easily faked. So, am I full of it? Are 45 2.1 and myself liars? No. We have witnesses. Regular members here just like Whitworth and Bioman that you back up your shooting with. At least once a year, I get together with 45 2.1, Dutch4122, 357Maximum, and Badgeredd for a weekend of shooting. The last time we got together at 45 2.1's place, we all had the pleasure of shooting with Castalot as well. Any one of these members can verify each others accuracy claims. Is that good enough or are we all liars? If it is good enough for you, please remember this the next time you go on a tirade and question our claims.

I do not question your accuracy capability nor your choice of alloy. What I do question is your blanket statements that it has to be a harder alloy or the highway. The gun and the "want-to" of the load developer will determine how hard or soft of a boolit will shoot best. Period! Some things take more work and for me, that's where the fun comes in. Sure, I can make a hard alloy shoot extremely well in most of my guns. Most, not all. I can also do the same with soft alloys from plinkers to max loads. Again, most, but not all. I let the gun do the talking and me doing the deciding of where I want to go with it.

[Lloyd Smale]

frank looking at a picture of a group shot with the load wrote on it means only that that particular gun liked that load. If your gun doesnt it sure doesnt make it a bad load. Ive got at least a dozen 44 mag handguns and every one of them has a favorite load thats differnt then the others and i can pick the best load out of any of them and can about guarantee that it will shoot like **** in one of the others. Finding good loads by reading someones advice on the internet is about as good as taking marital advice from the same place. Only way your going to find what your gun likes is to start loading and shooting. I would have to bet that theres not a single SERIOUS handgunner on here that gets loads from the internet. Most about know what they want to do and how to get there. Its just a matter of trying enough variables to make the stars align.
Lloyd Smale:
I can tell looking at a target when the truth is told. You know how I can tell? They put the load on it, and I try it. If it doesn't work, I let them know. Maybe now, that it has recently been suggested, I need to try everything, like shooting even soft boolits, as if to prove someone else's point. But why do I need to do that, if they don't even show me their target, their load and what they are doing? See what I mean? Why waste time if they don't show their work?

Shooting a lot of rounds every week doesn't make up for anything either. I read an article in Handloader recently Brian Pierce article with stiff loads for 45 Colt. More powder than I was using in my revolver. But he published his load, no groups shown, and gave velocity. I tested it and the loads grouped bad. It wasn't me, it was his load. He was just proving that 24.5 grains with a 300 grn boolit will go bang in a Ruger. Maybe he thinks it "shoots great", or "works for me", and it probably does sell the magazine. But because he was a gun writer, I guess I didn't need to see his target and his load. I relied on his word, tested it and proved the load a failure on it's own.

[Whitworth]

never bought into that show me your group ****. To many are so egotistical that you could never trust the distance they were shot at or even the load or gun they were shot out of. Real easy to shoot a 25 yard one hole group with a jacketed bullet out of a scoped rifle and then claim its a 200 yard off hand pistol shot. Im not accusing anyone hear of being dishonest im just saying that unless i see it with my own eyes i dont buy into it. Ive just heard to many locals claim this or that gun will shoot exceptionly well and when i went to the range with them all i heard was excuses. Not that even they were lieing. There favorite rifle might have shot a one time 3 shot group that would make the stars align but that doesnt mean its going to do it consistantly. I can take about any handgun and shoot it enough with most loads and eventually get a lucky load that will impress everyone hear. Sorry guys but i just dont buy into the one inch 100 yard wheelgun stuff. Not a single shooter ive ever met is good enough even with a good gun to do that consistantly and ive shot with some of the best handgunners in this country.

Well, Lloyd, I have seen 44man do it too often to say it is a fluke. I occasionally get lucky, but have never been good at shooting groups. I do make the first shot count and that is more what I focus on. He's pulling no one's leg with his shooting claims -- don't forget, the cantankerous old bugger won Ohio State IHMSA in '83.

[44man]

frank looking at a picture of a group shot with the load wrote on it means only that that particular gun liked that load. If your gun doesnt it sure doesnt make it a bad load. Ive got at least a dozen 44 mag handguns and every one of them has a favorite load thats differnt then the others and i can pick the best load out of any of them and can about guarantee that it will shoot like **** in one of the others. Finding good loads by reading someones advice on the internet is about as good as taking marital advice from the same place. Only way your going to find what your gun likes is to start loading and shooting. I would have to bet that theres not a single SERIOUS handgunner on here that gets loads from the internet. Most about know what they want to do and how to get there. Its just a matter of trying enough variables to make the stars align.
This is where we differ. My loads shoot from every Ruger, BFR or S&W with no change for any gun. There is a little difference in Whitworths converted SRH to a .475 in that it needs 1/2 gr more powder because the twist is slower then the BFR.
Every single BFR brought here shoots 1" pieces of plastic off the rail at 100 yards.
Not a single Ruger .44 fails to shoot my loads. I watched Bioman shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards time and again with a new SBH Hunter with my loads. A friends SRH is a tack driver.
If a gun will not shoot, something is wrong with the gun. If every gun needs a different load, something is wrong with the loads.

[44man]

Lloyd, Whitworth goes up in my ladder stand to practice for deer. Shooting off hand, he hits little water bottles over 86 yards and I have seen him hit them at 100 yards OFF HAND.
You can not do that with poor loads.
Yes, some make funny stuff shoot but it is gun specific. I do not want that stuff.
If I had as many .44's as you have, every one should shoot the exact same load. There is only one exception and that will be the RH that prefers H110 over 296.
A few say they work with harder stuff to get it to shoot for the challenge, That is stupid, make the gun shoot and put it away with the confidence that every time it is shot, it will hit.
Babore tells the truth and they shoot good but you see he also claims each gun responds different and needs a different alloy, load, etc. WHY?
I never doubt anyone's claims but if it only shoots from one gun, what good is it?
Bass says after a gun is worn you need to change the loads and after another 100 shots, change again, over and over for the life of the gun. Not in my lifetime! [smilie=1: My gun should shoot from day one and for the next few hundred years but give me a new one and it will do the same.

[BABore]

BABore never said that. BAbore shoots 3 alloys. Straight Pb for my 357 plinkers loads over WW 231 for 1,050 to 1,100 fps. Super accurate out to at least 400 yards, witnessed. The same load is a tack driver is several friends guns as well. 50/50 WW-Pb, 9-10 bhn air cooled or 20-22 bhn water dropped is used in all other revolvers to their maximum potentional velocity. I count this as one alloy. It's tried, both ac'd and wd'd, for all load workups to see what the gun prefers. I also use it the same way in all rifle loads up past 2,400 fps. Finally, BABore uses 50/50 WW-Pb with a small addition of high speed nickel babbit for fussy, HV rifle loads. It runs 13 bhn air cooled and 28+ bhn water dropped. Again, one alloy used two different ways based on a guns preference. BABore would never dream of shoving a generic load down the throats of his guns. Guns are individuals, just like peoples, and deserve more than having Campbell's chicken noodle soup stuffed in them cause it's quick,easy and always taste the same. That's what BABore does.

[Whitworth]

You had to go and insult Campbells chicken noodle soup......how low can you go?;)

[Frank]

Whitworth:
You had to go and insult Campbells chicken noodle soup......how low can you go?

Bruce is right. Look at the ingredients. I wouldn't eat it either.


Chicken stock, enriched egg noodles (wheat flour, egg solids, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine, mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), cooked chicken meat, water, contains less than 2% of the following ingredients: salt, chicken fat, cooked mechanically separated chicken, monosodium glutamate, cornstarch, onion powder, modified food starch, yeast extract, spice extract, soy protein isolate, sodium phosphates, beta carotene for color, chicken flavor (contains chicken stock, chicken powder, chicken fat), flavoring, dehydrated garlic.

[Lloyd Smale]

whitworth im in no way calling 44man or you a lier. I see all the time guys that doubt even me when it comes to shots ive made and have seen many guys who cant shoot want to think because they cant theres no way someone else can. Like anything else you have the norm the exceptional and the superhuman! As to one load shooting in every gun ive been loading and casting for 40 years and ive yet to find those majic loads. Now its not that i dont have certian bullets or loads that i dont like over others. theres loads that i will about guarantee will shoot under 2 inches at 25 yards in about any decent 44 mag but ive yet to find one load that will do that at 50 yards in every one of MY 44s. Now keep in mind that im not 44man. Days of me shooting 2 inch 100 yard groups with any open sighted handgun are long gone. On a real good day with a real good gun a 2 inch 50 yard group is about it. But the one size fits all load is just not happening. I wish i could afford to come and visit but that just aint happening but id like to dump the 13 44 mags i have on the table and have you set up a target at 50 yards and see how many of them shoot your majic load into an inch. If you did it with 1/2 of them it would truely amaze me. Especially with the rugers.
Lloyd, Whitworth goes up in my ladder stand to practice for deer. Shooting off hand, he hits little water bottles over 86 yards and I have seen him hit them at 100 yards OFF HAND.
You can not do that with poor loads.
Yes, some make funny stuff shoot but it is gun specific. I do not want that stuff.
If I had as many .44's as you have, every one should shoot the exact same load. There is only one exception and that will be the RH that prefers H110 over 296.
A few say they work with harder stuff to get it to shoot for the challenge, That is stupid, make the gun shoot and put it away with the confidence that every time it is shot, it will hit.
Babore tells the truth and they shoot good but you see he also claims each gun responds different and needs a different alloy, load, etc. WHY?
I never doubt anyone's claims but if it only shoots from one gun, what good is it?
Bass says after a gun is worn you need to change the loads and after another 100 shots, change again, over and over for the life of the gun. Not in my lifetime! [smilie=1: My gun should shoot from day one and for the next few hundred years but give me a new one and it will do the same.

[44man]

Whitworth:

Bruce is right. Look at the ingredients. I wouldn't eat it either.
That has to be the funniest thing ever! :kidding:
How do you know what is in the can unless you have some? :guntootsmiley:

[Whitworth]

Whitworth:

Bruce is right. Look at the ingredients. I wouldn't eat it either.

Somethin's gotta kill ya.......

:bigsmyl2:

[cajun shooter]

44man, I was having some fun and my dry sense of humor failed to ring up in your mind. I too have fired at many a long distance targets with the outcome being both bad and good. I am a certified Sniper from the FBI School. I also started shooting IHMSA with a member number of 725. I don't play keyboard games and You have nothing for me to be jealous about. I don't hide from no man on this earth
David Shultz
17195 David Dr.
Livingston,La. 70754
225-281-2664
I'm putting up as I get a little riled being called something I am not. If you want prints I will supply them also. There is a problem with people to day when they can't make a joke and then receive a mob wanting to watch a hanging. Bring it on.

[44man]

Lloyd, yes, unless a gun has something wrong, they will all shoot.
I had one Ruger that I could not control. A Bisley Hunter, so I sold it. I do not like the grip and could not maintain the same hold. I could watch a slight grip hold change the POI. I have the same problem with a Freedom and a S&W where I dare not put the gun down between shots.
I have no secret loads, nothing special but I know how a revolver works and what it needs. My load book is a little tiny thing with only loads that work----ONLY one load for each boolit! Anything that does not group is tossed and never written down.
Take my 45-70 BFR. I shoot about 12 different boolits and my load data takes 2 pages in a little note book. That is one side of a page and the other side of the same page. The .45 Colt is on one side of a page.
Sure, guys make funny stuff work but they need a phone book for each gun! :veryconfu

[44man]

44man, I was having some fun and my dry sense of humor failed to ring up in your mind. I too have fired at many a long distance targets with the outcome being both bad and good. I am a certified Sniper from the FBI School. I also started shooting IHMSA with a member number of 725. I don't play keyboard games and You have nothing for me to be jealous about. I don't hide from no man on this earth
David Shultz
17195 David Dr.
Livingston,La. 70754
225-281-2664
I'm putting up as I get a little riled being called something I am not. If you want prints I will supply them also. There is a problem with people to day when they can't make a joke and then receive a mob wanting to watch a hanging. Bring it on.
Not so, I did see the humor.
Now let me tell you something, nobody learns more then an IHMSA shooter. 200 to 500 meters with a revolver will set you straight right quick. That with open sights too.
It makes me ignore a 25 yard shooter and all the gun rags. Notice Taffin has come down to 20 yards? What is that about? Soon the muzzle will be against the paper! :holysheep
Nothing is personal or directed at anyone when I post, it is general.
I pick on all the same because I am an old grouch! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[felix]

When a gun shoots, it shoots. The wider the range, the better the gun for general purposes. I'd much rather have a gun that will shoot 10 different loads equally with 8s and 9s scores, than one that shoots one load with 10s. A BR gun should shoot a 10 load on every shot throughout any reasonable atmospheric condition with only very, very slight tweaks to meet its typical specs. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

i think a bit different felix. I spend alot of time doing load developement for a gun and when i find its best load i load ammo by the coffee can full. Seldom after i find the best load for a gun do i ever shoot anything else through it. If i want something lighter or heavier to shoot in the same caliber i just grab a gun ive worked up a load in that power range for. The most carried away i get will be with some guns ill work up two loads one light and one heavy. Mostly this is for guns bigger then 45 cal or smaller then 41 though. Ive got enough 41s 44s and 45s that i dont need each gun to be very versitile.

[44man]

i think a bit different felix. I spend alot of time doing load developement for a gun and when i find its best load i load ammo by the coffee can full. Seldom after i find the best load for a gun do i ever shoot anything else through it. If i want something lighter or heavier to shoot in the same caliber i just grab a gun ive worked up a load in that power range for. The most carried away i get will be with some guns ill work up two loads one light and one heavy. Mostly this is for guns bigger then 45 cal or smaller then 41 though. Ive got enough 41s 44s and 45s that i dont need each gun to be very versitile.
Hard to fault that! Never have to adjust sights either. :wink:

[felix]

Yeah, the age old problem. Do I fix what I have, or do I obtain another, keeping the old as well because it is too good to trade. Most of us true hobbyists do the latter, but the economy is changing such that the former is becoming more attractive. ... felix

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Frank

Bruce is right. Look at the ingredients. I wouldn't eat it either.

44man:
How do you know what is in the can unless you have some?

I'm a serious buyer. I got it off the internet. :lol:

[Lloyd Smale]

i totaly understand the money involved. Im now on social security disability and theres not many new guns in my future. Ive got all i can do to keep in powder and primers. Luckily i got into this hobby at a young enough age and made a decent living during that time. I didnt do alot of drugs or drink alot and didnt have to many other hobbys other then shooting so i did aquire a few guns. One thing i will say is theres not one out of spec sixgun in the house. That been said i dont think theres an out of the box ruger left in the house. All my guns were either right or made right. the ones beyond fixing were sold off long ago. Probably half the handguns i have are full on customs. So theres not much that needs fixing other then occasional broken parts.

Thats part of the reason i shake my head when i read about things like one load fits all and every gun i have shoots into an inch at 50 yards. Ive owned over a 100 handguns in my life and many of them high dollar customs by the best smiths out there and to me finding a gun that shoots one in at 50 let alone a 100 is like finding the holy grail. I guess one of these days ill just have to admit to myself what ive been telling others for years is true. Im just a lousy shot!!!;)
Yeah, the age old problem. Do I fix what I have, or do I obtain another, keeping the old as well because it is too good to trade. Most of us true hobbyists do the latter, but the economy is changing such that the former is becoming more attractive. ... felix

[44man]

Spent most of my life selling GOOD guns to afford something else. All would be collector items today. [smilie=b: I see an original 29 can be worth $2000. My flat top went along with a ton of great guns.
Seems as if a lot of the old guns were super accurate so I came to expect the same results from others but have found too many newer ones did not hold a candle to the old ones. Many real high dollar guns are not worth the scrap metal price.
I always had good luck with S&W and Ruger except Ruger .22 revolvers. I stick with the Mark I's and II's.
Many rifles went away but since I started revolver hunting, I have no need for a rifle. Ones I wish I still had were the model 71 and the 1892 Marlin 25-20. Both would do 3/4" at 100 with open sights and cast boolits.
I kept reading about the love affair with a Bisley grip so I bought a new Bisley Hunter in .44 to find I could not control it and groups would walk if I put the gun down between groups so I sold it fast.
The S&W 29 was extremely accurate but it is grip sensitive and shoots better off hand. Fellas will never understand how important the grip is and how it fits you.
I found better revolver boolits and how to load them. It was the economy of my situation that forced more thinking. I could never buy a pile of jacketed to match how much I wanted to shoot.
I don't shoot as much anymore but when I take a revolver out, it will shoot where aimed even if it has sat in the safe for a year. There is nothing more to test, no changes needed unless I have another boolit to try. One range session will take care of that.
A super accurate gun is really boring and only practice for hunting is needed to sharpen me because all of my hunting is done off hand.

[Lloyd Smale]

Is anyone else impressed. Not even a mention of the name;)

Seems as if a lot of the old guns were super accurate so I came to expect the same results from others but have found too many newer ones did not hold a candle to the old ones. Many real high dollar guns are not worth the scrap metal price.

[Whitworth]

Is anyone else impressed. Not even a mention of the name;)

Geez, don't encourage him, Lloyd! :lol:

[44man]

Is anyone else impressed. Not even a mention of the name;)
You don't have to worry! [smilie=l:
Had many S&W's, Dan Wesson's, a Seville, even $2000 rifles here that would not shoot, not to mention the no name guns.
I was lucky with S&W and my 27, K38, K22 and all the 29's I owned were tack drivers but friends and customers have not been so lucky. I know of one beautiful K22 that refuses to group.
Every company can make a shooter and all can make duds but some make more duds!
Even some of the rich IHMSA shooters would buy a pile of guns, find one that would shoot and sell the rest.
Have you seen the latest rag with a test of the big S&W .44 hunter model with a red dot? Sad--- great groups at 25 yards---YEAH, 25!
How much would you like to bet I can make the gun do that at 100 with CAST?
Beauty, fit and finish has never made a gun shoot even if you sleep with it! :holysheep
Given a choice, I would buy a BFR, Ruger or S&W every tick of the clock and not take the chance with 2 months earnings because I do not wear out my guns by kissing them goodnight. :takinWiz:
Guys will spend thousands getting a Ruger customized but will it shoot better--what a joke! It is all about "kissy, kissy!" Did you know a fully engraved and gold inlayed revolver will shoot better? Not yet, it needs ivory grips!
Darn, this is fun! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[357shooter]

44man: I'm one of the 25 yard shooters. That's the longest place I have to shoot, and don't feel bad about it, or take offense to what you've said. The question I have is, have you shot these 100 yard 1 inch shooters at 25 and if so, did you get a .25 group? Or something else?

I'm enjoying the thread, but in all honesty some of it doesn't translate to my casting, loading, shooting because I'm distance limited.

Heck, most of the folks at the range are shooting 5 inch groups at 7 to 10 yards. For real.

[Thumbcocker]

...."I do not wear out my guns by kissing them good night"

So are you sayin there's something wrong with kissing guns good night? I have sat on the sidelines of this thread up till now but a man's got to take a stand at some point.

[44man]

44man: I'm one of the 25 yard shooters. That's the longest place I have to shoot, and don't feel bad about it, or take offense to what you've said. The question I have is, have you shot these 100 yard 1 inch shooters at 25 and if so, did you get a .25 group? Or something else?

I'm enjoying the thread, but in all honesty some of it doesn't translate to my casting, loading, shooting because I'm distance limited.

Heck, most of the folks at the range are shooting 5 inch groups at 7 to 10 yards. For real.
I understand when you have a limit to distance. Short ranges will tell you nothing about a load and my worst loads have done one hole at 25 to 1".
We start at 50 and go to 200 on my range but we go to 500 meters at my club.
25 is OK for a .38, 9mm or .45ACP but when you get into large magnum revolvers and want to hunt, 25 will tell you nothing at all. A .500 S&W and a .460 are 200 yard hunters so why fool around at 25? Even a .44 is an amazing caliber so you must have boolit stability at long range.
A .357 or .41 is fully capable of 1" at 100 too.
Ask Whitworth because he is not happy with over 1" at 50 yards either and I have seen him hit very small targets at 100.
We can hold 6" at 100 off hand with a .475 or .500 JRH and hit a beer can a lot of times. Do not believe those that say they can break a clay every shot at 100 off hand but from a rest, we can, even to 200 yards.
There is not a single person here that can break more then one clay out of 20 at 100 with a rifle, let alone a revolver off hand. The sandbags change that and even a sniper does not shoot off hand. A sling with a good rifle from prone can make you a shooting machine but without the sling, forget it.
Have you ever seen a revolver hunter shoot an animal at 200 yards off hand? Yet some can do it from a rest or sticks. That is because the gun can do it.
What do you learn with a .500 S&W at 25 yards? NOTHING AT ALL.