Paper "quality" vs. Bullet hardness

[offshore44]

I am a newby at paper patching, and have another thread going on the .458WM and wrapped lead.

I have been searching for the best accuracy that i can obtain from my rifle. Paper Patching is showing the best results so far, by a measurable margin.

In my search for accuracy, I have been using different papers, obtained locally, to get the patched bullet size to the just right dimension for the rifle's throat. I have also been experimenting with different alloys to see what that does for me. There seems to be a correlation between alloy strength and the paper that the bullet is wrapped with. Harder / stronger lead alloys appear to work better with higher quality paper. (higher cotton content, better manufacturing process / feed stock) Plan lead seems to work better with lower quality paper.

An example would be un-alloyed lead wrapped with some cheap printer paper or low quality graph paper works OK. The 100% rag velum doesn't work well on un-alloyed lead. Confetti with lead and cheap paper and little to no confetti with the velum. On the other hand, the cheap paper on Lyman #2 or water dropped wheel weights with 2% tin added deposits lead in the bore where the lands meet the bottom of the grooves starting half way up the barrel. The velum gives confetti and no leading with these alloys.

Has anyone else experienced this?

The loads are the same other wise.

Oh, and I observed rust spots forming with cheap paper. An examination under magnification shows metal particles in the paper. Ouch.

Shrinkage:
I have also observed that different papers shrink to greater or lesser degrees as they dry. All of the papers that I have tried so far measure about 0.003" thick before being applied. The exception is the 24# paper that I grabbed accidentally...
Graph paper shrank to a bullet diameter of 0.459". Very fragile.
Good 20# bond shrank to 0.462". Tough, and pretty stable.
Cheap bond paper shrank to 0.462 - 3". Tough and just kinda stable.
Velum shrank to 0.461" on the bullet body and 0.460" on the bore riding nose section. Very tough and very stable.

The 24# bond was a high quality paper and dried to 0.469" and was very tough and very stable. More like a jacket than a paper patch. Too big for what I need though. I may have to explore it some more if I can't solve my long leade / big chamber issue any other way. That will require a bunch of modifications to my loading dies though, and that is a one way trip that I would like to avoid if possible.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`m using 20 to 1 alloy and wrapping with ordinary copier paper. After drying I give a tiny amount of JPW to the wrap and push thru my home made push thru sizers. I am getting adequate accuracy with the way I am doing things. I am loading my wraps in my .338/06 and .416 Taylor. I am now toying with .308" bullets wrapped up for the .303 crowd of calibers. I am not looking for single hole accuracy - just adequate hunting accuracy.Robert

[Harter66]

Having limited paper sources out here in the boonies. I noted the post half bbl leading too ,it started at the gas port in my sks . I thought that it was gas port issues. This thread makes me think maybe not. The new batch of boolits are 1-20 the previous boolits were both WDWW and ACWW. I'm just getting in to the pp so I have little for compairison. For what its worth the accuracy has improved as the boolits softened in alloy. The ACWW seemed to make the trip down the bbl better in 20# copy paper than WDWW.

[303Guy]

Great observation, offshore44.

Thanks for the information. I was wondering about alloy hardness and paper toughness and now you have answered my questions.

As to patch failure - meaning failing to 'confetti' OR failing to make it to the end of the bore is something I have experimented with a little. It helps having a 'test tube' in which to develop my loads and just play around with.
What I found was that there is a point at which the patch makes it through the bore and 'confetti's' at the muzzle. Below that the patch partially cuts into strips or stays almost hole and above that the patch fails in the bore and leaves leading.

Here's a load development for my Lee Enfield BSA & M carbine.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-597F.jpg?t=1302506583 Patch remaining whole.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-605F.jpg?t=1302506583 Patch cutting into strips.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-620F.jpg?t=1302506583 Full patch disintegration!

That last load was pretty accurate. I did the same thing for my pig gun and got good accuracy with that too. The alloy I use is quite soft but faily tough and the paper is cheap printer paper which I dry wrap.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-610F.jpg?t=1302506583 That boolit turns inside out in sand but retains 95% weight.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have been using 16# green bar printer paper on all my loads. Pure lead in my 45-70 to a BHN alloy of 16.5 in my 300RUM. Makes life simple.

[offshore44]

Thanks for sharing your observations folks!

I was trained as a mechanical engineer, but worked as a ship builder, so I have a pretty strange mindset. Kind of a cross between "Show me the Data" and "Git'er Done!"... Anecdotal evidence from a small sample size tells me that there may be a correlation to explore further.

Hey 303guy, could you explain your 'test tube' set-up and how you use it? Also, what alloy are you using? It would be great to capture the patch in enough instances to really figure out what is going on at the muzzle. I know that you kind of explained it in another thread, but I think more details would help me.

Windrider919 shared his alloy recipe, and I tried it out, though I haven't shot it yet. It was WDWW with about 2% tin added. What are you using? I have shot straight lead and lead with 2% tin. (as well as other combination's and permutations) I got good, usable hunting accuracy out of both. The lead with 2% tin was tooling right along at about 2450 fps, with about a 2 - 3" group at just shy of 100 yards. I have no idea what the patches looked like on that bullet...never did find any paper to speak of from the patches. No leading though. I THINK that the lead / tin alloy is what I am after for a general purpose alloy. May or may not ever get there.

Harter66, I know what you mean about getting a hold of different papers. I am in kind of the same boat. Pdawg_shooter is a big fan of green bar paper...I haven't been able to locate a source for it anywhere in the area, so it's utility to me is completely theoretical at this point. I need to use something that is readily available and preferably cheap. I finally located a reliable and reasonable source of lead and alloying materiel in the area, so that's good.

More stories about what works and what doesn't would be great! Keep'm coming.

[docone31]

lined notebook paper.
Same as what Dennis uses.

[offshore44]

lined notebook paper.
Same as what Dennis uses.

Hard alloy, soft alloy? How's it work for you? Is the paper a hard finish? How much does it shrink? Do you put it on wet, damp or dry? Lot's of questions about what different kinds of paper do, and how they act...especially when you shoot them and how the PPB is prepared.

[barrabruce]

I use tobacco papers 'cos they work well as any for me. come out hard as hell when dried and a 1 drop per 3-4 bullets lightly smeared over the bullet with alox over the patched and exposed nose seems to work better and no leading.
But I'm 1/2 patching.
Slow but simple.
When dry the paper layers underneath show no sign of it penetrating. If applied with heaps the paper will be soggy.


Lined note pad of the foolscap variety is about 2 thou. wrapped wet and tight it will shrink and make a tight patch.
Some varieties of paper just go to mush when wet although they initially look promising.

I do a few testers with new papers to try and if they can't go through my core sizing die Whacke'm type with a good whack on there bum without the paper sizing down and all surviving then they won't through my gun.

Look up Paper 101 in the blackpowder section. has all the good info.

Rag paper supposedly is the best if you can get it.
I have a few sheets but waiting for a new scope to test it out.

Soft alloys "may" feather the base when shot but I have no proof of this if driven hard enough with fast powders.

Being an engines ear..I would say you need a paper /alloy /pressure point where the projectile going through the bore = the paper when compressed by the forces of the malleable lead and the pressures acting upon it set up set up the situation where as the lands compress the paper into the form of the lands and cut the paper in a way that the bore is not exposed to the base metal and produce lead build up though friction.Nor loose enough to allow gas cutting.

The paper has come off the projectile cleaning by the jet of gas overtaking the bullet at the muzzle and the rotational forces.
Stay intact and not be blown to dust in the bore by the pressures and not to soft as to not cut properly.

If I size the patch down after drying they are shiny and hard.
I then cut the patch off and measure the core diameter.
If it has compressed smaller than the bore I would either change paper or harden the alloy.
There are some interesting finds if you try this.
I don't know how much it makes much sense after you place it into a chamber and whack it with hot gasses thou.

My therory and I'm stuck with it at the moment.

Wrap/ load /shoot.

Do what the gun is telling you........I know I have talked to mine and it only say boom / crack.

Barra

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi
Man this is exactly the subject I'm hot on right now. Lately I have been having failure after failure in two of my 303s. I have tried bullets as small as .302 and as large as .310 .Wrapped with many types of paper all with the same terrible results. I have been using oven hardened WW and get them about as hard as WW can get.According to the scources this should be a brinell of 26 to 28.Lino is supposed to be 21 or so.At any rate they are very hard. I'm now thinking that they are too hard to work well with pp. The paper usually comes out as just a cloud. little to be found after fireing. No confetti. I used to get confetti in my 30 cal loads and had good results too. My last boolits that worked well were 1/2 lino and 1/2 WW no heat treatment.
Is it likely that I could have good results with softer boolits? It would be easy to try WW as cast at slower speeds. Right now I would take about anything that produced results in these two rifles.
thanks
n.h.schmidt

[docone31]

If you cast a standard .303 casting, dry size it to .308, then wrap twice with lined notebook paper. You will have your baseline.
Next, depending on what Enfield it is, My Smelly I size to .314. I have heard others size theirs to .317, or .319. That is for the #4.
I use a cigarette roller, wrap soaking wet. I twist the tail then let dry.
I Then size useing Turtle wax. The push thru sizeing die scraps off most of the wax.
I load with full tilt 4895.
I use water dropped wheel weight, or Zinc castings.
No tumble, no large groups. AT 100, I can do from the 9ring inward.
That cartridge is a beaut to wrap. I am using PRIVI brass, and have a few loads to them. I had Lee modify my collet dies set to do the paper wraps. The dies messed up the patches on loading.
No crimp.
I have fired a full magazine of patched loads with this load. They hit higher than either cast, or jacketed loads.

[303Guy]

The 'Test tube'.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-558F_edited-2.jpg?t=1302506585

The inside of the 'test tube'.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-556F_edited-2.jpg?t=1302506585http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-572F_edited.jpg?t=1302506584 In these tests the bullets were caught in rags under the cans.

The bottom of the tube is bomb proof. There is a 4140 disc which sits on top of carpeting for noise absorbtion. There is a layer of sand on top of that then a 4140 pot with steeply chamfered sides and mouth filled with sand. The carbon steel tube visible in the pic holds the test medium. If that is sand then there is a wad of rag at the bottom to act as a plug. That sits on the sand in the pot. It is made up of carbon steel pipe offcut rings with mating steps. The lid is as seen in the pic. The muzzle of the gun is inserted into the rubber mouth and the barrel aligned by eye. The lid does jump up unless weighted down. It sounds like a hammer blow onto steel or a door slamming. If I were to do it again I would add vent holes in the lid with an expansion chamber and add a pair of lid hold down clamps or stirrups. It handles full 303 Brit loads but the lid does jump a bit. The escaping gasses are no issue - just the lid jumping.

[303Guy]

n.h.schmidt, my alloy is way softer than lino. I use scrap lead drain pipe with a chunk of the soldered joint thrown in and a little copper dissolved by 'tinning' and submerging in the pot of melted lead-tin alloy. I think the max copper is 0.06%. It's a malleable alloy that seems to hold together quite well. It 'splashes' rather than shatter or simply disintegrate.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_20gr2205_146PP.jpg?t=1302506581 303 Brit 205gr fired into soft sand.

[offshore44]

Thanks 303guy. I think that I am going to have to cook a "test tube" up to see what I can see. It'll probably tell me to shut up, sit down and pay attention in class.

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi
303guy
I have done some checing.My boolits I'm using now are way too hard. Much harder than even my 1/2linotype and 1/2 ww mix I used to use. I',m going to use un heat treated WWs next.
n.h.schmidt

[pdawg_shooter]

Try air cooled WWs. They work good to over 2400fps.

[n.h.schmidt]

Thats exactly what I'm going to use next. If I can get 2100 to 2200 fps out of aircooled WW,I will be happy. My main boolit for this is 186grs when cast of ww.
n.h.schmidt