out of round bullets

[josper]

I just received a new Old West bullet mould for .459-350gr bullet. I tried it out yesterday and had dissapointig results. I did the usual prep. Washed with solvent ,then scrubed it with dawn and an old toothbrush. Preheated the mould ,alloy is 3#ww-1#pb-1/2#50/50 solder,heated to 800deg. The bullets droped good and look good but I discovered they were running out of round..460- .455 I did find a couple that were round but undersize .457. Am I doing something wrong or do I need to send it back to the manufacture to be checked out. I forgot to say this is a brass mould.

[Springfield]

If some were round and some were not then I wold say it is probably your casting techniqe. The mould doesn't change but they way you cast might. Make sure you are always holding the mould tightly closed when casting, and also check for some bits of lead on the mould face.

[josper]

T he ones that were round were undersize??

[357shooter]

Sounds like the mould temp being off. It affects roundness and diameter. I don't know a good starting temps for a brass mould, or for your caliber. A kitchen (flat bottom) thermometer in a cavity will let you try hotter / cooler temps to see what works best.

Alloy temp and casting pace will keep it at the right temp, once you know what it is.

There's some charts in this post of mine that shows how mould temp affects roundness.

http://357shooter.blogspot.com/2011/02/extensive-mould-mould-temperature-test.html

It's with aluminum so the temps don't translate to your mould. Thought it might help show the impact of mould temp.

[josper]

I had good fill out and I had cast about 100 bullets.That would put me into 50 cycles.I will try to get back to it this week and try some of these ideas. I have some lineotype so I will try that too. I use an RCBS dipper for everything and usually don't have any problems.I have cast all maner of stuff with minimal problems.This is the first time I have incountered something major.I had also used my RCBS mould and that cast fine. So go figure. I think you guys are right and first I will try preheating the mold some more,can't hurt none.thanks for the ideas.

[kbstenberg]

Josper what GLL was talking about was heating up the mold to casting temp. an then letting it cool to room temp. Some people go through this cycle about 3 times even before any cating is done. I was told be Mihec an NOE that the heating process helps the molecules align better.

[josper]

OH and thanks,lol:killingpc

[357shooter]

Cycling a new mould 3 times, by heating in a 450 degree oven for 20-30 minutes, then letting them cool to room temp works wonders.

My wife used to ask what was baking, now she assumes it's either a mould or some bullets (being heat treated or annealed).

[Moonie]

Did you use a dial caliper or a micrometer to take the measurements?

[josper]

Mics of course,2anvil

[josper]

update: I sent the mould back to Bernie@ old west bullets and he checked it out and fixed the problem.The bullets are dropping .459 now and nice and round.I don't fault old west bullets as being a machinest for 40 years I know how s$%t can happen. He did straighen it out for me. Thank all you guys for your suggestions and help.:drinks:

[onondaga]

800 degrees and you are wondering why you had problems. :killingpc

An honest answer would just take too long. Study up.

Gary

[josper]

Gary: this is a brass mould.The instructions I had said it was best to run on the hot side 750 -to 800 deg.which is what I was doing. If you know differant please let it be knowen.I cast 350 some odd bullets today and they are ok.

[madsenshooter]

Bernie doesn't work with a centering vise for one thing. See my Eagan MX30-30G post. Two of 3 were off enough, I wouldn't sell them. Got em fixed though. And brass does need to run hotter, but I love it!

[onondaga]

A mold made of brass has no miraculous effect on lead alloys at 750-800 degrees.

You may well be able to balance out your casting cadence and method to get OK bullets. Alloy that hot has it's own set of problems casting that are unrelated to mold material and they may creep up on you..

If you start to have problems or get not satisfied with OK bullets, try lowering your pot temp to 650 and changing your casting cadence/method till you get excellent bullets.

Gary

[josper]

I'l try anything once.Next time I cast I will try your idea and see how it goes.I'm kind of puzzeled as there are more than a few people here that say they need to run the brass moulds hotter[750-800]

[Springfield]

My Mihec brass moulds need to be run hotter but that doesn't mean you crank up the lead temp, it just means you need to keep up a good pace. I cast most everything with the lead around 675, steel, aluminum, brass. The tempo controls the mould temp. If it is a larger bullet and the mould is running too hot then maybe I will lower it to 625, but I never cross 700, no need to. I also sometimes use a fan to cool the mould on the 400 grainers and larger. I run a 40 lb Magma pot, but the same is true when I use my smaller RCBS pot.

[josper]

Ya learn something new every day. Like I said next time around I'm going to try it your way and see what happens.I am casting 45's 350gr and 405gr. I size to .458 ,they have not been cleaning up all the way around ,kind of spoty.I took 50 rds to the range and to my supprise they were grouping about 2" at 100 yds. I'm primaraly a deer hunter and I don't see that as a problem.

[cbrick]

Springfield is correct. My brass, aluminum, iron molds casts my alloy at 700 degrees or a bit less on large bullets. I cast most everything with the pot temp no higher than 700 degrees - ever. 700 degree pot temp is well above the temp needed to get your mold, any mold, up to a good casting temp and keep it there. 700 degree pot temp is enough heat to get your mold far too hot to cast good bullets.

The proper way to control mold temp is with the casting rate, NOT the pot temp. If your mold is too cool, cast faster, if your mold is too hot slow down and start a fan. For those that insist on a pot temp of 800 degrees or higher I hope they aren't waisting their money on tin. The purpose of tin in your melt is to help control oxidation. Tin looses much of it's ability to do this much past 750 degrees and past 750 degrees tin itself oidizes much more rapidly.

If your mold is too cool 700 degree pot temp is enough heat to get your mold PAST the melting temp of the alloy. For what reason would you need even higher pot temps.

If you cast at an even lower temp as Springfield does (650) you can cast at a faster pace and still keep the mold at proper casting temp because your not waiting as long for the sprue to freeze.

Ok, rant over, let's hear from all those that crank the temp knob all the way up and leave it there and why this is correct/better/good and why a lead thermometer is a waste of money/time.

Rick

[357shooter]

Springfield is correct. My brass, aluminum, iron molds casts my alloy at 700 degrees or a bit less on large bullets. I cast most everything with the pot temp no higher than 700 degrees - ever. 700 degree pot temp is well above the temp needed to get your mold, any mold, up to a good casting temp and keep it there. 700 degree pot temp is enough heat to get your mold far too hot to cast good bullets.

The proper way to control mold temp is with the casting rate, NOT the pot temp. If your mold is too cool, cast faster, if your mold is too hot slow down and start a fan. For those that insist on a pot temp of 800 degrees or higher I hope they aren't waisting their money on tin. The purpose of tin in your melt is to help control oxidation. Tin looses much of it's ability to do this much past 750 degrees and past 750 degrees tin itself oidizes much more rapidly.

If your mold is too cool 700 degree pot temp is enough heat to get your mold PAST the melting temp of the alloy. For what reason would you need even higher pot temps.

If you cast at an even lower temp as Springfield does (650) you can cast at a faster pace and still keep the mold at proper casting temp because your not waiting as long for the sprue to freeze.

Ok, rant over, let's hear from all those that crank the temp knob all the way up and leave it there and why this is correct/better/good and why a lead thermometer is a waste of money/time.

Rick

LOL, that is a great post, with a preemptive strike! Although I cast hot with very soft alloy, but also don't cast big caliber / heavy bullets either. I just do what works for my stuff with my turtle-slow-pace... Some of us hot pot guys own a thermometer you know. One day I'll read the directions! :cbpour::cbpour::cbpour:

[RobS]

Oh no you didn't, you forgot to read the directions posted by the "Casting Gods" here. It’s funny how your boolits look so darn good and doing it all by a means that differs from those who won't no way, no how accept that things can be done another way than theirs. Tell you what, it's the unwavering comments that some people give through their posts stating that another person's work is wrong simply because such work is done differently that becomes tiresome in nature.

[cbrick]

Well Rob if your refering to me not one time have I ever suggested such a thing so your post is not only wrong, it's rediculous. I have always said that if someone is happy with their results they are doing it exactly right for them. That does not mean there isn't a different perspective and a different reason for doing something else.

There are some people, though obviously not all, that appreciate learning something new along with the reason for it.

So if you are refering to me (you didn't have the courage to say who) please simply use the ignore button, hate to see you so "tiresome" over the prospect of learning. Others are happy to learn from the experiences of other people.

Rick

[RobS]

No not referencing you, I was speaking in general to those individuals who may read this thread and who have commented directly to this thread that running an alloy at anything hotter than 650, 675, 700 or whatever have you degrees has to be doing everything wrong as they state it as such in posts throughout the forum anytime alloy temp comes up (no pun intended). If I was speaking to you specifically I would have quoted you and/or titled my post like this one. You've said you run your pot at such and such temp which works best for your molds, your casting tempo, your alloy etc. and you have stated it and nothing more, that I am not against one bit at all. Learning on the forum is a product of reading what is written and understanding the line in which it was intended. Sorry for any hard feelings, it is difficult sometimes to relay what is meant with words, sentences and paragraphs.


Well Rob if your refering to me not one time have I ever suggested such a thing so your post is not only wrong, it's rediculous. I have always said that if someone is happy with their results they are doing it exactly right for them. That does not mean there isn't a different perspective and a different reason for doing something else.

There are some people, though obviously not all, that appreciate learning something new along with the reason for it.

So if you are refering to me (you didn't have the courage to say who) please simply use the ignore button, hate to see you so "tiresome" over the prospect of learning. Others are happy to learn from the experiences of other people.

Rick

[cbrick]

Whatever, you quoted 357 shooter who had just quoted me.

My feelings weren't hurt but it sure sounded like yours were with the "tiresome" comment.

Life goes on.

Rick

[RobS]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS370US370&q=tiresome&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=dzq2Tc6FKpGjtgeC8_l8&ved=0CBYQkQ4&biw=1259&bih=537

Life goes on......................yep

[captaint]

Not to gang up, here, BUT I did cast up 27 lbs of 200gr 45 SWC's today with a brand new (baked twice) Mihec 4 cav brass mold. The temp was never above 700 and almost always closer to 675. I actually had to relax my pace, or things got too hot. All in all, worked out pretty well. enjoy Mike

[RobS]

Not to gang up, here, BUT I did cast up 27 lbs of 200gr 45 SWC's today with a brand new (baked twice) Mihec 4 cav brass mold. The temp was never above 700 and almost always closer to 675. I actually had to relax my pace, or things got too hot. All in all, worked out pretty well. enjoy Mike

Yes this is good info. and follows along with many other's results, again nothing wrong at all here. Glad to have you provide your experiences without negative opinion or tone. What is rediculous is when people tell others they are doing it all wrong by adding in emotioncons of people hitting their heads on computer screens and constantly telling others that what they are doing is dead wrong as it's not the way they manage things in what they call success. Nothing more nothing less.

[josper]

Ok ,today I cast 400 bullets 350gr old west mould. I kept my temp from 650-675. that worked rather well.Once I got the mould hot I just kept cranking along.Good fill out nice looking rounds.the only thing is they are on the minumum size .when I size them they don't clean up all the way around. I took 50 to the range to try and I wasn't expecting much but to my supprize they grouped fairly well I have seen worse with some I bought. I am mostly a deer hunter and I felt satisified with them.The question is now .Should I atempt to beagel the mould or or just go with what I have[ATTACH][ATTACH]31925[/[ATTACH]31926[/

[cbrick]

josper, impossible to answer that without more info. What are you shooting? What is the groove or throat diameter. What is the final sized diameter?

I have many bullets that I size to very minimal diameter and a few that I run through the lube-sizer with zero sizing, lube only. All depends on as cast diameter and the needs of the firearm.

Rick

[onondaga]

Constructive criticism:

Consider using targets with a much smaller bulls eye. A 1 inch bull at 50 yards or a 2 inch bull at 100 yards. The small bulls get you to concentrate on a much smaller spot when you are aiming and your groups will likely be half the size.

Gary

[josper]

I'm shooting a marlin 45-70 ,bullets sized .458 . groove dia is .457. redfield scope 2x-7x The targets are 200yd centers that we use for m1 compitition 200yds and is just what I happened to have .I could see the 10 clearly so I don't think target type was an issue.I was shooting from a bench but not fully supported.This was at 100yds .I didn't think this was to bad considering it was with a lever gun.Where I hunt 100 yds is a long shot and the average is 50yds or under.If I can't drop a deer at that range I should stay at home .I can shoot .I usually average 430 some odd with my M1 at 200yds which is a rack grade old clunker.[but I love it] I have an 30-06 bolt gun that shoots clover leafs at 100yds.I used to be big into woodchuck hunting. 300 400 yd shots no problem.I have slowed down quit a bit. I have nuropathy in my arms and legs but I still like to get out to shoot.

[onondaga]

Josper, calm down. Think about it. Dividing a 2 inch circle into quarters with a scope cross hairs, holding and firing produces smaller groups for me. Maybe it doesn't matter for your style shooting. It sure helps me. Some scope targets have have cross hair lines that you can overlay scope view upon too. I am just telling you the classic, "Aim small, miss small" thing.

Your groups appear to be about 4 inches and I thought you were shooting for your best group size trying to squeeze every bit of accuracy you could get.

I am not competing anymore and am a former sniper. When I see shooters using targets with a bull I would shoot at 500 yards it usually catches my eye and flips a switch. I was trying to be helpful.

A marlin 45-70 will do a whack better than that with worked up cast hand-loads, but that is certainly fine for 100 yd deer.

Neuropathy sucks and is painful, I had it in my feet for about a year but it suddenly stopped. I hope yours does too. Mine was from TBI.

My cast loads for deer are a 329 gr cast Flatnose at 1610 fps out of a .458 WM and group 1.2" at 100 yd and just under 3" at 200 yd. I am 60 yr old.

Gary

[josper]

gary :I wasn't being Pi##y ,just giving an explanation.I like the replys even if they sting a little.still can learn somthing from them.I am self taught and have picked up alot of info from digging through this forum.Just bare in mind that people have varying ideas about stuff ,I try to land someware in the middle. shooters have argued about their ideas from the beggining and I suspect they will continue till the end of time. I did lower my alloy temp down and I will look for a more sutible target to use for the purpose.