Help with 45-70 load

[TedH]

My first try with cast boolits in my 45-70 was the LEE 340 PB boolit. I tried just about everything to get that thing to shoot, and groups were never better than rotton. I gave up on that mold and purchased a RCBS 45-405-GC. BINGO! That bullet shoots great with any load I push it with. Then I was given a gift certificate to Cabelas. I always wanted to try the Gould 330 HP mold so used my gift certificate for one. Got a bunch cast with WW and some cast with 50/50 WW and pure lead. Finally got out to the range today to test them.

Oh boy, here we go again. Had patterns, not groups, with three different loads I tried. Had to shoot some of the RCBS bullets to make sure the rifle was ok. Those still stacked 'em one right on top of the other.

What's the deal with these lighter bullets? Would you all care to share your favorite loads with this bullet?

I'm shooting them out of a Guide Gun if that matters.

[Leftoverdj]

It's the lack of GC, not bullet weight. Plain based bullets are severely pressure limited. Put those Gould bullets over 13 grains of Unique and see what happens.

[nighthunter]

My 457122 bullets shoot real well with 40.0 grains IMR 4198. I run them through a .459 sizeing die to pretty much just lubricate them. I wish I could get the mold to open enough to cast about .460. I know they would shoot better. With plain base bullets I have found that I need to go about .001 larger than with gas checked bullets.
Nighthunter

[SharpsShooter]

Need a bit more info to be able to help you out. The Gould hollow point is a very accurate boolit in most 45-70's. Keep in mind though that 1400-1600fps is about the limit for plain based boolits.

Have you slugged the bore and if so what was the measurement.
To what diameter are you sizing the boolits? Lube type?
What load were you using? Velocity?
Are the 330gr boolits leading the bore?


The poor grouping you describe makes me suspect it is a under diameter issue. The cast boolit need to be .001-.002 over bore to acheive accuracy. Lyman moulds of recent manufacture tend to be undersize and therein lies the problem.

Load Data for this boolit (Marlin)

Unique 9.5 to 14.5 / 963-1295fps / 24,000cup
2400 21-28 / 1293-1640fps / 25,000cup
IMR 4198 33-43 / 1539-1867fps / 28,000cup
IMR 3031 47-54 / 1723-1934fps / 28,000cup
RX7 50-58 / 1842-2132fps / 27,000cup

I prefer the heavier boolits for hunting etc, but use a 457122 (322gr FN) that weighs 335gr with my alloy and 12 gr of Unique in my 1895 Marlin for a plinker load. Accuracy is amazing as I regularly bust centers out of clay birds hung on the 100yard line target board at our range. I'll be glad to help you get that one working.

SS

[SharpsShooter]

My 457122 bullets shoot real well with 40.0 grains IMR 4198. I run them through a .459 sizeing die to pretty much just lubricate them. I wish I could get the mold to open enough to cast about .460. I know they would shoot better. With plain base bullets I have found that I need to go about .001 larger than with gas checked bullets.
Nighthunter

Beagle the mould and you can get .4605 to .461 out of that 457122. I had to do it to mine and it cured it rather quickly. I run mine through a .4605 die that Buckshot made for me and it just lightly touches the sides and lubes them.

SS

[TedH]

I'm running them through a .460" sizing die. The bullets are pretty much just getting lubed as they drop from the mold at .460". My bore slugged .4585". Lube is RCBS green. They were not leaving any lead to speak of either. It may be that I am pushing them too hard. I was using 50.0 gr. of RL7 up to 52.0 grains. Should be a pretty mild load. I have had good luck with Unique and the RCBS bullet so I guess I will try some with these Goulds too. I was wanting to keep them around 1500-1600 fps. May have to settle for less.

[35remington]

Given that 50.0 of Reloder 7 gives me about 1900 fps with the RCBS 405FN, yeah, I'd have to agree, you're pushing them too hard. That load ain't that mild-in fact, it would be listed as near .45-70 +P when speaking of Marlin leveractions and a 2.55" OAL. You're probably getting about the same velocity with your lighter bullets. Back off a bunch, and try some of the other loads listed above. You're above the speed where I normally expect plainbase to shoot well.

[TedH]

Given that 50.0 of Reloder 7 gives me about 1900 fps with the RCBS 405FN, yeah, I'd have to agree, you're pushing them too hard. That load ain't that mild-in fact, it would be listed as near .45-70 +P when speaking of Marlin leveractions and a 2.55" OAL. You're probably getting about the same velocity with your lighter bullets. Back off a bunch, and try some of the other loads listed above. You're above the speed where I normally expect plainbase to shoot well.


50.0 grains of RL7 is the minimum or start load for that bullet in my Lyman manual. I'll load some up with Unique and see what they do. I was hoping to get a load that would print to near the same point of impact as my 405 load, but that may be asking too much.

[SharpsShooter]

50.0 grains of RL7 is the minimum or start load for that bullet in my Lyman manual. I'll load some up with Unique and see what they do. I was hoping to get a load that would print to near the same point of impact as my 405 load, but that may be asking too much.

But Lyman does not tell you that the base of the boolit will not tolerate that pressure level. My Unique load prints exactly to the same point as my 420gr loads. I haven't changed the sights in years. 50gr of RL7 yields 1800+fps with that boolit and it really isn't needed for expansion or energy in hunting applications.


SS

[stocker]

TedH: Given the plain base bullet you should probably be looking at loads more suited to a trap door Springfield. Glancing through several Lyman books I see Rx7 being in used in quantities varying from as low as 33 grains (300 gr j-bullet) up to the levels you were starting at depending on action strength. I've used 37 grains with the RCBS 300 (weighs closer to 325) with excellent accuracy although mine does have gas check in place. I have used it with and without filler and it is best with filler.

The problem is you have to have as many Lyman manuals as you can get your hands on to get the whole story.

[MT Chambers]

The Gould is no great shakes in my Marlin either(Marlin Cowboy w/Ballard rifling)....however in my Sharps it's deadly with 80 grs. of Swiss 1 1/2Fg.....all the loads in my Marlin were smokeless.

Remember"Once you try black, you'll never go back"

[BruceB]

Some months ago I loaded a stair-stepped series of .45-70 loads for my Shiloh, using Re #7 and starting at a VERY conservative level as per the Lyman manual I used.

I'm at work and can't recall the particulars, but I DO remember this: with the first load in the series, my chronographed velocity was FOUR HUNDRED feet per second faster than the speed Lyman quoted in their manual. I was expecting about 1350 fps and instead got over 1750 fps. In a .45-70, that is one dickens of a major variation, and I knew it as soon as the hammer fell. The recoil made it very obvious that something was radically amiss.

Ceasing the firing of that load, I broke down a couple of rounds later at home, and found the charges to be right on-spec according to my intended load. I immediately dis-assembled all the Re#7 loads and moved on to other things.

I haven't revisited that combination, but if I do, it will be a very cautious undertaking indeed.

I'm finding that my interests with the .45-70 are tending toward "traditional" levels, down in the 1400-1500 fps range for most boolits. These are much nicer to shoot in the pointy-buttplate Sharps', and I have other rifles to take care of the heavy boolit/highspeed requirements. that might arise

[NickSS]

I have an RCBS 45-325-FN plain base bullet mold that I use in my lever action marlins. I size all of them the.459 and they shoot quite well with 29 gr of AA5744 or IMR 4198 I use no filler with the AA 5744 but use filler with the 4198 I ger about the same results. I was shooting this load today at 200 yards and had no trouble at all hitting six inch diameter steel plates with it in My JM Ballard rifle. I have also shot the Gould HP bullets cast from 30-1 alloy for hunting over 67 gr of GOEX FFG. This makes a really good deer load that puts them down fairly fast with good expansion of the bullet.

[T-Bird]

I agree with Bruce B. on 45/70 velocities. You won't ever get '06 trajectory out of it, and you will pay heavily in kick trying. The 457122 shoots great in my Marlin 1895CB with 29gr IMR4198 and dacron. Vel is 1375 and shoots flat enuf to be my "100yd" rifle. It is also easy on the shoulder and ears. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[44man]

If you want a very accurate and pleasant load, use 38 to 40 gr's of 3031 with the lighter boolit. I have a 317 gr boolit of my design that I put 5 into one ragged hole at 50 yd.s from an original trapdoor using 40 gr's. I think 3031 is easier on the boolit base.

[Ranch Dog]

The boolit can only survive about 17.0K PSI (23.0K CUP), a little less as you add the pure lead. You might water quench these boolits and then the pressure could come up to about 28.7K CUP. That would help with the powder selection.

[Maineboy]

Ted, you're not the only one who's had trouble with the Lee 340. I've never been able to get anything better than so-so accuracy with it in my Marlin at any velocity. I have moulds for 5 other heavier boolits that shoot very well, including the Lee 405 PB and the 405 PBHP that print nice groups, even at 1800 fps. Maybe my gun doesn't like boolits that weigh under 400 grains. I got in on Ranch Dog's 350 grain group buy and have a bunch of them loaded up. My next trip to the range will tell how they shoot.

[Dale53]

I have had good results with the Lee 340 gr with 31 grs of 4198 (don't take that as gospel as I am away from my data - however, that is how I remember it). It gives 1.5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards in my "new" 1895 Marlin with Ballard Rifling (early issue). It also has mild recoil.

I am going to take a perhaps unusual course with my Gould bullet. I will be using 25-1 Lead-tin with the hollow point and using a duplex load (10% by weight of RL-7) behind Swiss 1½ Black. I will have black powder ballistics (which are sufficient for this bullet up to at least 100 yards), no worry about a partially empty case, and good results with a soft bullet (getting my the terminal performance that I desire with this hollow point). Frankly, with most of the old black powder rounds, this seems to me to be a practical way to go. All of the benefits of black with the positive attributes of little fouling. You can literally shoot all day with this combination without worrying about fouling. Afterwards, it is a two or three wet patch and two dry patch, then preservative patch, clean up. What could be simpler?

FWIW
Dale53

[tall grass]

I'm running them through a .460" sizing die. The bullets are pretty much just getting lubed as they drop from the mold at .460". My bore slugged .4585". Lube is RCBS green. They were not leaving any lead to speak of either. It may be that I am pushing them too hard. I was using 50.0 gr. of RL7 up to 52.0 grains. Should be a pretty mild load. I have had good luck with Unique and the RCBS bullet so I guess I will try some with these Goulds too. I was wanting to keep them around 1500-1600 fps. May have to settle for less.



TedH

When I upset a soft slug in my chamber it measured 0.4595" and the barrel slugged the same as yours. You might want to lap that mold out to about 0.460". If you can buy a Lee 45-70 mold that is that big you are blessed.

Jim

[9.3X62AL]

Ted--

As can be seen, a lot of us mess around with the 45-70. Mine is a Ruger #1, and it can shoot VERY well with loads it likes. It sounds like the prime bugbear with this caliber--undersized boolits from most molds--doesn't apply in your case. I agree that the RL-7 loads you mention are a little high-pressure for a plain-based boolit.

I got cured of the temptation to run full-potential loads from the #1 in a fairly short time. There is nothing like a 350 grain Hornady at ~2000 FPS in a 7.25# rifle to illustrate that laws of physics get no plea bargains. My usual loads now run in the 1873-level intensities, 405 grainers at 1300 FPS or so. These are all-day loads--my eyes don't cross, my shoulder blades don't meet in back, my fillings don't loosen out, and the loads shoot accurately. If 3/4 to 1 oz of lead almost 1/2" in diameter moving 4.25 football fields per second won't harvest a game animal, get something belt-fed.

[Dale53]

Deputy Al;
Thanks for the LOL. Boy, are we on the same page!!! I mentioned that I have an 1895 Marlin lever rifle, but I also have a Ruger #3 with a cute little schnable forend off a Ruger #1. I believe the #3 is even lighter than your #1. I can remember, several years ago, shooting a friend's Ruger #1 with 405 gr bullets at max velocity. I swear I could feel my retinas detaching!!

I shot BPCR Sil for about fifteen years and have a lot of respect for the old black powder rounds with both black AND smokeless. Black powder ballistics suit me just fine with the .45/70. My big game hunting has been limited to one bear (.375 H&H) and several deer with a handgun. Surely, my .45/70's will do as well as my .44 mag revolvers on typical big game that I am apt to hunt...

Dale53

[TedH]

Loaded some up with 13.0 grains of Unique and a grain of poly pillow stuffing. At fifty yards four shots went into about one inch and the fifth opened the group up to 2". Not too shabby for my eyes and a peep sight. The velocity was very consistent averaging 1175 for 10 shots. To my pleasant suprise, the point of impact was virtually identical as my mule kicking 420 grainers. I'd like to try to get the velocity up to 1400-1500 fps if the bullet will take it. Got a couple other powders to play with still. Thanks to all for your input.

[Antietamgw]

I have a 6 1/2 lb Rolling Block sporting rifle in .45-70 with a bore that is less than perfect. The narrow cressant buttplate will get your attention quick from the bench during load development. It's favorite load is 10gr Red Dot with a Lee 450 from ACWW. It has produced groups of under 1" at 50 and about 1 1/2" at 100 yds when I can see the sights just right. I don't know the velocity but that load with 9Bhn bullet has taken a couple deer with no problem at 10 and 50 yds. Broadside shots on both, some signs of expansion and you could eat right up to the hole. Maybe Santa will bring me a chronograph. It doesn't like 3031 or 4198. 5744 has shot some decent groups but nothing is as consistantly accurate as the Red Dot load. That combination of the LEE and Red Dot has also kept me from serious load development with other powders and boolits. A few friends have also tried Red Dot and had good results, usually at slightly different powder charges. I don't want to experiment higher than 10gr. on my old black powder action. The 457125 500gr shoots very well also - I think it's the long bore ride nose on the LEE 450 and 457125 that this rifle likes, though the nose just touches the tops of the lands. I'm looking for a lighter bullet that shoots and bought the group buy 460-350 but haven't shot it yet. Just yesterday afternoon I shot the Lee 450 and 457124 405gr with Unique with loads from 10 -12 gr. The Lee wasn't happy, groups running 2" at 50. The 457124 liked 11gr with 4 in a 3/4" hole and a flyer 1" out. These were only 5 shot groups, 1 group of each load. I'll try them at 100 yds when I get some time and daylight. I recall trying some dacron with Unique a few years ago with this rifle and it didn't make any difference in accuracy, maybe pressure wasn't at a level that was causing troubles with these PB bullets. I sure hope I can get the group buy mold to shoot - I'd like to save the lead and the reduced recoil would be nice.

[leftiye]

Mr. Deputy......... So what do I do with my 45-100? Suffer! I guess.