I've got some leading

[Slinger]

I bought a Lee 356- 120 gr TC mould. Cast up some slugs, sized them to .357" and used two different lubes. Both worked fine on another bullet similar to the Lee but 5 grs. heavier and the lube groove is deeper and a shade wider on the other boolits. Loaded up 5.6 grs. HS-6. The bore in my S&W M&P is .355" - .355-1/2". With both lubes I got some steaks & smears of Leading throughout the bore. A bore brush wrapped with a piece of copper Chore-Boy scouring pad took it out easily as a fine dust. Not pieces or bits. Any idea of the cause of the leading. The other boolits I used were commercail and I had no problem. I even removed the lube from some of the slugs and replace it with the two lubes I use. Still no leading. But the Lee leads. It's either size diameter (.357) or the lube groove is too small. Velocity is under 1100 fps I believe. The reason I mentioned the lube groove is because I ran into the same thing several years ago with an RCBS .45 acp 200 gr. mould. Small lube groove and it leaded. Switched over to another mould maker & leading disappeared.
Have any of you fellas used the LEE 9mm 356- 120 gr. TC slugs and experienced leading?

[btroj]

Variables, dude, it is all about variables.
My 1911 does not lead with MML lube and the Lee 200 swc but does with the exact same load lubed with Carnuba Red. The CR does not lead with the Lee 230 TC. Drove me nuts.
You are at a point where small changes can make you or break you. What were the commercial cast sized to? Actually measure them, don't trust what the manuf said they are. Try casting them either a bit harder or a bit softer.
The first thing I should have asked is how was accuracy? If you got good accuracy for the number of shots you wanted then I would consider leaving it alone. If you shot 50 rounds then things fell apart and got worse accuracy wise I would fix it.
Like I said, even though things are similar they are enough different to matter in YOUR gun.

[Slinger]

The commercial slugs measured .356". That's the only difference, other than than size of the lube groove. I used C-Red & Jakes' purple. Both work fine in the other cals. I load for. BHN of my metal is 11, measured on a LBT Hardness Tester. I basically used W-W with some 50/50 bar solder thrown in.

[btroj]

That .001 could be the difference. Do you have a .356 sizer?
I fought with so many different ideas to get rid of the leading in my 1911. I finally went to a different lube and that made the difference. I was lucky in that I knew the size I was shooting was ok as I got no leading with a different bullet sized the same diameter.
I really suspect the size difference is the key. Lube can only do so much to stop leading. Fit is much more important in preventing leading and it sounds like you might have a fit problem.

[Slinger]

No, I don't have a .356" sizer. I order the .357" sizer with the mould, because when I slugged the bore, I was measuring up to .355-1/2". I guess I could order a .356", but I hate to spend the money & end up not using the item. I guess you don't know until you try, but I hate guessing, although in some cases (like this one) answers aren't set in stone.

[mdi]

Is your alloy too soft? Too hard? That's another variable...

[btroj]

Are you guessing though when a .356 bullet does not lead yet a .357 does? If what you are telling us is true then this is the largest difference between the loads that lead and those that do not.
I view this is a well calculated idea, not a guess. You are basing this upon what you know does or does not work.

[Slinger]

Point Taken, btroj!

[montana_charlie]

Have you actually measured a bullet after sizing it to .357"?
CM

[Slinger]

Yep- .357" according to my digital calipers & that's what the die has stamped on it. My stuff is new. I quit casting many years ago, sold everything, then about two years ago I decided to start casting again, so I've bought mostly everything new. A few used Lyman moulds, but all the Lee stuff is new. Sizer is used, but like new.

[Slinger]

I decided to call the Lee factory. I thought maybe they could shed some light on this. The tech. guy said it was either the bullet wasn't hard enough or the lube(s). He didn't think that the .357" dia. was the problem. He said to try their liquid lube, which I don't want to use. He said the lube groove on this bullet supplies enough lube and that they've not had any complaints. So, I don't really know any more than before as I couldn't get a definite answer..................I'll try using #2 Alloy, I guess, and see what that does.

[Doby45]

I bet if you pulled a boolit from a completed round it would not be .357

[cbunt1]

I still lean toward FIT (the .357 vs. 356) based on everything else you're telling us...especailly the fact that the little bit of leading you are getting is coming out as a powder rather than streaks or chunks (pulverizes when it's too big, melts when it's too small...i'm sure some would argue, but that's been my non-technical non-scientific experience...dealing with .001 over or .001 under, anyway).

I use this bullet all the time, made from Hardball (16 BHN) and WW (10-12 BHN) and I sell/trade thousands of them with friends very successfully in several guns, sized to .3565 (per my mic) and lubed with FWFL...I only mention this to validate the Lee folk's assessment that the lube groove is adequate. I've also used the liquid lube on them, and it works fine--it's just messy and smelly and smoky.

In this game, fit is king. If the fit is right, everything else becomes almost incidental. What lube machine are you using? Perhaps someone has a spare die they'd loan you to test with before you buy another die....I have spare .356's in Lee Push-Thru and Lyman/RCBS types that I'm not desparate to have my hands on right now...

[Slinger]

cbunt1- Thanks for the offer, but I believe I'll try the #2 alloy first. I just cast up a bunch so I'll shoot them in the next day or so.

[Slinger]

I bet if you pulled a boolit from a completed round it would not be .357

Why's that????????

[Doby45]

I am betting that your brass is sizing your boolit down some. Make a round just as you normally would, then pull the boolit and then measure it and see what size it is.

[MtGun44]

Dial calipers are not accurate enough to measure boolit diameter!!! They are +.001 or -.001.
You MUST have a micrometer rated at .0001" accuracy or you are just spinning your
wheels.

You THINK you have a .355 bore and you THINK you have a .357 boolit, but you don't really
know because your tool is not capable of telling you closer than .001 either way from the
readout. So if it says .357, it can actually be .356 or .358 and the caliper is "within tolerace"

Go to Enco tools and see what the current price is on a Fowler micrometer. Should be able
to get one for under $35 plus shipping, often sales for ~$25 or so. I'm not selling Fowler mics
but they have been reported to be a good quality tool, and they are usually reasonably priced.

I'd guess that you have a fit problem or a lube problem. Be certain of your fit and then try
NRA 50-50 before you spend a huge amount of effort elsewhere. 9mm is a tough nut
and needs a really good lube. There a tons of "OK" lubes out there and you can use them
for a lot of stuff, but it takes a really good lube to work for 9mm.

Bill

[soldierbilly1]

I bet if you pulled a boolit from a completed round it would not be .357

yupper. I had or have the same problem. I am now using the Lyman M-Die and I tossed the FCD die out in the woods!
MtGunn knows of what he speaketh. lubes do make a diff, so does the M-Die and so does the (separate) Lee taper crimp die.
I am still investigating my situation; I have a 9 with the same problem. Every iteration is an improvement. Interestingly enuff, I poured a batch of Lyman #2 yesterday and these bullets were considerably harder than my previous batch after day 1. hmmmmm. I am thinking the alloy has got to be Goldilocks, just right or she won't work!
The investigation continues, next up: Blue dot powder (instead of Titegroup).
Hey, on the brighter side, my shooting is getting better!
billy boy

ETA: again, MtGun44, precise measurements are important ... use a micrometer. esp. if you get involved in measuring post loading and pulling that bullet to check measurements. What did Yogi say "You can learn a lot through observation."

[Doby45]

I tried out some boolits yesterday in my carbine that were awesome.

3.4gr Bullseye
125gr Lee RFN sized to .358
Carnuba Red
Seated just to the start of the front drive band, I will get OAL tonight
Wolf SPP
Mixed brass

I was putting 5 shots within an inch at 25yds with the iron sights. Cycled perfect through the carbine and next to nothing in the way of recoil. Zero leading and nothing to speak of in the way of smoke. This was shot at an indoor range therefore the 25yd and smoke comment.

[Slinger]

I just came in from shooting the #2 Alloy (15 BHN) slugs that I cast this morning. Sized to .357" & C-Red lube. Same powder charge. Leading is nil. I also loaded up more of the W-W alloy sized to .357" & C-Red. Switched to WW-231 and got leading. So, it's the Alloy from all indications. I still might just order a .356" sizer die for my Lyman........depends on the accuracy of the .357" slugs. I was more interested in the leading issue than accuracy. Thanks to all for their comments, suggestions!

[Doby45]

Funny, I am usually more concerned with accuracy, then leading. ;)

[462]

"Yep- .357" according to my digital calipers & that's what the die has stamped on it."

1. As mentioned calipers are 10 times less accurate than a micrometer. Or, to re-phrase it, a micrometer is 10 times more accurate than a caliper.

2. Experience has shown that just because the sizer has a particular number stamped on it doesn't necessarily mean that that is its actual size, just as moulds do not always drop at their specified diameter.

" I also loaded up more of the W-W alloy sized to .357" & C-Red. Switched to WW-231 and got leading."

The change in powder could be the cause of the leading and not the boolit's hardness. When experimenting, make only one change at a time, otherwise you will not know which change was the cause of the different result. In this case, was it the boolit or the powder? It's impossible to know.

[Slinger]

"Yep- .357" according to my digital calipers & that's what the die has stamped on it."

1. As mentioned calipers are 10 times less accurate than a micrometer. Or, to re-phrase it, a micrometer is 10 times more accurate than a caliper.

2. Experience has shown that just because the sizer has a particular number stamped on it doesn't necessarily mean that that is its actual size, just as moulds do not always drop at their specified diameter.

" I also loaded up more of the W-W alloy sized to .357" & C-Red. Switched to WW-231 and got leading."

The change in powder could be the cause of the leading and not the boolit's hardness. When experimenting, make only one change at a time, otherwise you will not know which change was the cause of the different result. In this case, was it the boolit or the powder? It's impossible to know.

I do know from previous tests. I'm not a novice by any means, but do get stumped on occasion when it come to leading.................

[Slinger]

Funny, I am usually more concerned with accuracy, then leading. ;)

For the type of shooting I do, accuracy is not extremely important. If I can can put'em all in center mass & head, that's good enough. I do have quite a few handguns that are extremely accurate with the right handload and don't lead. But, at my age my ability to shoot extremely accurate loads is starting to wane. On a rare occasion I can cut a playing card in half @ 30-35 feet with my 45 acp. Doesn't sound like a feat, but I can't even see the edge of the card. I shoot where the edge should be. Sounds like I'm bragging, but shows you the two types of accuracy I'm interested in.........without leading. I never really liked the 9mm, just bought it cause it was a good deal and I sometimes carry a 9. Thanks again for your help, I appreciate it!

[Doby45]

I see exactly what ya mean and understand what yer sayin.

[docone31]

I have that mold. It is great in my 9mm.
I use water drop wheel weight alloy. I size to .357 in a push thru sizer with my own lube.
No leading, no jamming.
I soak my Lee molds with mineral spirits for a couple of days then cast. No smoking of the mold. Just cast.
My castings get real hard. That might be the issue with the leading.
Try some water quenching.
You never know.

[Slinger]

I have that mold. It is great in my 9mm.
I use water drop wheel weight alloy. I size to .357 in a push thru sizer with my own lube.
No leading, no jamming.
I soak my Lee molds with mineral spirits for a couple of days then cast. No smoking of the mold. Just cast.
My castings get real hard. That might be the issue with the leading.
Try some water quenching.
You never know.

Good idea! I can cast up some slugs & water drop them easy enough. See if they lead in my gun. Do you have any idea of the hardness of the WW slugs when you water drop them? Are they straight WW or do you add a bit of tin, etc? I'd prefer to use straight WW with some tin in order to conserve my stash of Lino.

[Doby45]

I use straight WW with a splash of tin with my 9mm boolits. I also water drop them and I have zero leading.

[williamwaco]

Have any of you fellas used the LEE 9mm 356- 120 gr. TC slugs and experienced leading


Yes and no.


Yes:
I really like these small 9mm bullets for plinking loads in the .38 special.
I just received a new 6 cav Lee mold and cast up around 500 of these in a ridiculous amount of time.

I have only fired 50 of them so far. Cast hard. 50%WW and 50% linotype.
They were tumble lubed with Rooster Jacket. Not sized. Loaded as-cast. The load was 3.8 gr Accurate no 2.

It was super accurate. 1.00 to 1.25 inch groups at 25 yards.

No:
There was no detectable leading. This means I could not see any visually after firing. After inspecting for lead, I passed a clean dry patch through on a .35 caliber jag. It came out with only powder fouling. No detectable lead or surprisingly ( to me ) no detectable lube. After this procedure the bore shone like a mirror.

You mentioned a S&W M&P. I have S&W handguns also. Regardless of whet the "Experts" say. I get best accuracy and least leading with .355 or .356 bullets. .357 bullets shoot ok but are beginning to lead enough to need a good scrubbing after 25 rounds. I have found this to be true for many S&W's over many years.

[Slinger]

After I try water drop, and see the results, I might have to try the .356" sizer. I think I've got a can of Accurate #2. If I do I'll give your load a try. Thanks,williamwaco.

[MtGun44]

I use this mold in all my 9mms at full power without leading. NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue
lube, .357 diam and range pickup brass. Aircooled wwts, harder is not required.

Accurate and reliable.

Bill

[Wally]

Last year I purchased an RCBS 125 grain .38 Cal RN-GC bullet mold # 82062. Works superbly in the .357 Magnum w/ no leading. I make my own GCs using a Freechex tool---also is excellent in the Marlin 1894C Carbine..I load them single shot in it. The BC of the bullet is better than a 158 grain SWC; at 100 yards it has a better trajectory.

[Slinger]

Well, I water dropped some slugs yesterday, size them this am & shot them. Got leading. so, I just ordered a .356 sizer. We'll see what that does. I'll go back thru and shoot the WW alloy again only sized @ .356" and see if it leads. Shot some more #2 alloy bullets to make sure and no leading. Finicky little sucker, aint it!?!?!?! I'll let you guys know what I come up with next week when the .356" die comes in.

[MtGun44]

My bet is that .356 will make it lead MORE. Note that harder alloy did not end the leading, a
point that I try to stress as often as possible. Harder is not a cure-all for leading. Harder
is highly overrated for pistols, IMO. If you have accuracy issues, harder may help, but I
have seen harder cause leading more often than help it.

Good luck with this project. 9mms seem to be one of the problem children out there, but
so far my only 9mm load has been leading free and accurate in all my different 9mms. I think
sometimes it is related to a particular barrel as much as anything else. How much jacketed
ammo has been through this barrel? If it is alot, I wonder if you have some copper fouling
that should be removed? If not a lot, maybe smoothing it up with a few hundred rounds of
jacketed, followed by a through copper cleaning might help.

Lee 356-120TC, AC WWts sized .357 with NRA 50-50 soft lube over a full power load of SP8
(Nobel powder, rarely found in the USA) in mixed brass.

Bill

[Daryl]

Slinger,

I just fought with my 9mm for some time. I went back to every little detail. That all was a good thing but, for me, bottom line was the hardness. When I heat treated m WW to 22BHN +/- all perceptible leading went away. But, all the steps may have helped - here they are:

I used a 38 special expander to expand the case .002 more to prevent swaging the bullet back down. 9MM expander is like .352 or so but 38SP is .354+. Also, I seat my bullet deep to chamber properly - so the 38 special expander expands the case deep enough for the whole bullet.

Then I use 5.5 HS-6.

Seat a 130 grain RFN from LBT to .975" COL.

I size to .3575+ and use LBT blue lube in a Star sizer.

Barrels all slug about .355+

I also lap & polish the bores frequently with JB bore paste and use Tetra gun oil to fill in the microscopic imperfections.

I agree with others- NO LEE FCD for the cast - I use a Redding taper die and put just enough taper crimp so the cartridge will chamber.

I have 4 SW 6906 pistols that I take to the range - I can test 4 different loads and come back and examine the barrels. When I take all the proper steps above- the plain WW 12-14 BHN had significant leading and the Heat treated did not. So, I control for every variable except BHN and that was it.

I ran 120 rounds through my Sig 226 E2 and no noticeable leading at all. Made my day!!

[2 dogs]

Slinger. Youre KILLING me. Go back and reread MrGun44s posts. He is giving you the straight skinny and exactly the same advice I would give.

[Slinger]

Slinger. Youre KILLING me. Go back and reread MrGun44s posts. He is giving you the straight skinny and exactly the same advice I would give.

I hope your life insurance policy is paid up........................................!:)

[ReloaderEd]

I have made when I was young the NRA Alox 238/beeswas 50/50 and have never had any problems with leading using this bullet lube. Now days I buy it in solid sticks and it is getting quite expensive.
I have had barrels that were new and a little rough. These I clean up using valve grinding compound the bullet grooves and fire frive or so though the barrel. This laps the lands and grooves but does not change the dimensions of the lands and grooves in the barrel. There are kits available now to do this.
The US Marine Rifle Team uses the same procedure to lap their used target barrels. This resotres accuracey for several more thousand rounds before the barrels are replaced.
I am sure a lot of shooters will not agree with this procedure, however, each to his/her own. Be Safe

[Slinger]

That .001 could be the difference. Do you have a .356 sizer?
I fought with so many different ideas to get rid of the leading in my 1911. I finally went to a different lube and that made the difference. I was lucky in that I knew the size I was shooting was ok as I got no leading with a different bullet sized the same diameter.
I really suspect the size difference is the key. Lube can only do so much to stop leading. Fit is much more important in preventing leading and it sounds like you might have a fit problem.

btroj gets top honors! I got the .356" sizer in this am. Sized up straight WW, water dropped WW, & #2 alloy. Used Carnuba Red lube (as before). Bingo! Only a very slight wash in two short spots just ahead of the chamber at about 1" with the straight WW and not much of anything with the water dropped slugs. #2 alloy clean. So, I'll probably water drop for the 9mm, but at least I know I can use air cooled WW if I want. Lesson learned............listen to BTROJ!