M94 Missfires

[beagle]

I have a M94 Legacy .30/30. Great rifle and accurate as all get out with a scope.

Problem is that it missfires and frequently.

I've taken it apart and observed the functioning (without ammo naturally). It appears as if the lever is moving the actuator up that tells the firing mechanism that the lever is closed and locked. I can see the bar that it contacts move up.

Other than that, I've attempted no troubleshooting.

This is one of those "lawyer" rifles with the safety. I'm wondering if the safety can be messing it up some way.

When I experience a missfire, the hammer drops normally but I get a very light or no indent on the primer.

The firing pin moves freely and protrusion looks normal.

I'm wondering if something on that #*&#&^*$ saftey is causing the the hammer to drag or not get a full force hit.

Hard to troubleshoot without primed cases. Guess I'll have to go that route. I'm getting on the average of 4 rounds per box and they usually go on the second try.

Any idea would be appreciated.

Never had this problem with my old M94 without the safety./beagle

[Bass Ackward]

Good logic. I think you are in the right area. You can .... beagle your lever and eliminate the actuator as a problem if it is just too short for some reason. Use common snece, don't go over board.

You can disassemble and look at the cross bar. Impact should show up plain. And you clean and deburr if necessary.

The only other cause that I can think of is a headspace problem, but you can logically diagnose that too. And if you suspect that, then a guage would be required to answer completely.

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

Beagle, like Bass said, eliminate the actuator, and if there ain't a lawyer looking on I'd remove the safety and fire primed cases to check function (assuming this mod will fire w/o safety?) After that I'd strip the bolt looking for a "floater burr or chip" in the firing pin bore. I once had a well used 94 tie up in the field, it was a chip of walnut that popped off and moved, rifle would not cock. you may be looking for something strange like that.

[Trailblazer]

It is probably not the safety. It is probably the rebounding hammer mechanism. That is what usually causes misfires in the newer 94's. That is why I have replaced the rebounding hammer setup with the earlier half cock mechanism on my newer 94's. Some people have used stronger springs to fix the problem. Wolf makes a spring kit. I think you may be able to bend the spring guide bar so the hammer is tilted forward more. Never tried it though.

[stocker]

Dave Scovill outlined a cure for the problem in an article in either Rifle or Handloader a couple or 3 years back. I think it was directly referenced to a repro M86 but I suspect the design may be similar in the Legacy but I haven't seen a Legacy to be certain.

When you look at the coil mainspring does the metal piece that extends from inside the spring to the hammer have an upper and lower arm (ie; forked)? If the lower arm is a tad long it restricts the travel of the hammer when it falls. Scovill recommended shortening the lower arm by about .035 or .045 I think it was.

If you can find a collection of old issues to look through it will be clear if you have a similar problem.

[beagle]

Stocker..I'll look at that and see if I can find the article. Thanks.

I still had the problem today and I took it a part. I found a small bur that looked like it had been hitting so I smoother that off and now, it crushes a q-tip wooden stick pretty reliably so I'll try it again next week.

I vaguely recall that piece. That could be the problem as this rifle has done that ever since it was new. I just haven't taken the time to work it out.

Whatever it is is intermittent and impossible to duplicate when I want to. Drives me nuts with that unrliability.

Guys...thanks for all of the ideas. I'll let you know how it turns out./beagle


Dave Scovill outlined a cure for the problem in an article in either Rifle or Handloader a couple or 3 years back. I think it was directly referenced to a repro M86 but I suspect the design may be similar in the Legacy but I haven't seen a Legacy to be certain.

When you look at the coil mainspring does the metal piece that extends from inside the spring to the hammer have an upper and lower arm (ie; forked)? If the lower arm is a tad long it restricts the travel of the hammer when it falls. Scovill recommended shortening the lower arm by about .035 or .045 I think it was.

If you can find a collection of old issues to look through it will be clear if you have a similar problem.

[KCSO]

The most common cause of misfires in these is the rebounding hammer. If it is just a scosh out of sync you will get light hits and an occasional misfire. The difference in primer hits with black powder will cause strining of the groups too. I wish I had a real good answer for this as Winchester simply said if 9 out of 10 fire there IS no problem. In both of my 1886's i bought old parts and put them back to the old style hammer.

[beagle]

stocker...I pulled it apart again and looked at it, that's how its set up. I pulled the hammer but saw no place that it was hitting.

Anybody have that article and can make a scan, PM me. Must have been Rifle Magazine as I take Handloader and cover it pretty thoroughly and don't remember seeing it./beagle

[stocker]

beagle: I gathered that the lower arm acted to prevent the hammer from delivering a full swing at the pin. My Miroku 1886ELR never showed any signs of mis-firing but as I use the rifle primarily in areas where the big bears roam I decided after looking at the set up that it ouldn't do any harm to shorten the lower arm the recommended amount. The result is the hammer sits slightly lower when sitting uncocked at rest and it still goes bang when I want it to. I've since lent that issue to a gent who was having problems and he never returned it (as yet) and imagine the next time he swings south he'll stop by with it.

The only real trick is re-compressing the spring and getting the strut held during installation. I used a 3" tube that the assembly would slid into. At the bottom of the tube file a round notch on either side to slide a locking pin through to lock the strut back. Once re-installed in the rifle the pin is pulled out so the spring can push the strut forward to the hammer. I used a drill press to hold the tube and clamped the strut width ways in a smooth jawed vice. Line up the notch with the capture hole in the strut, compress and slip the pin in. Just a matter of all being in the right position before you pull the pin on re-install.

[hpdrifter]

might try going to "leverguns.com" and asking this question. Seems someone did a post on this and someone either showed pictures or had a link to an internet sight that did. I vividly remember reading the article and viewing the pictures, but I just cannot find the link.

[C A Plater]

I had one a long time ago that had similar symptoms. Turned out it had a broken firing pin even though it fired most of the time. May not be what causing your problem but it is an easy enough check.

[Newtire]

I am curious about this as I have one of these with the same problem + an extractor that doesn't grip the rim and get no extraction also. A real *** jbut accurate (like Beagle said). Been this way since new also.

[beagle]

I had the firing pin out. It looks fine....../beagle


I had one a long time ago that had similar symptoms. Turned out it had a broken firing pin even though it fired most of the time. May not be what causing your problem but it is an easy enough check.

[beagle]

Leverguns forum is avirtual treasure trove of information on this.

I've downloaded abunch of stuff but haven't had time to "digest" it yet./beagle

[MtGun44]

My Extra Ltwt 1886 was a misfirer from new. Took it to the local Winchester
factory repair station, he fired three rds of factory, said "I don't see any problem".
Asked if I was shooting reloads, which of course is the only ammo ever been
in the rifle, and he blamed it on them. I've been reloading for 40+ yrs and am an
NRA reloading instructor, and the problem is NOT the ammo. He offered to send
it in for factory repair, but allowed as how it would take about 18 months for
that "since they send them to Belgium for repair now". Clipped me for $12 for
3 rds of factory .45-70 and I left in a bad mood.

I started working thru the totally lawyered "redesign" (screwup of a good
John Browning design IMHO) of the firing system. What did I find ?

1 - the firing pin is hollowed out and a latching mechanism is integrated with
a plunger on the back which is hit by the hammer first, releasing the firing pin
latch and then hitting the firing pin. Latching system absorbs hammer energy
even if working perfectly, and mine was not.

2 - The hammer has about 30-40 % of the mass removed by milling the whole
left side off below the metal to make a ledge for the thumb safety (actually a
hammer block) to stop the hammer on. Less mass, less hammer impact energy.
Strike 2.

3 - rebounding hammer, as mentioned by several others on this thread. The
hammer spring pushes on a forked spring guide which engages the hammer
above the pivot pin with one fork and below the pivot pin with the other fork.
When cocked, the upper fork is pushing on the hammer and the lower fork is
not touching anything. As the hammer nears the firing pin, the lower fork reaches
it's seat on the hammer and starts removing energy by opposing the motion of
the hammer! The setup of the two forks makes the hammer neutral position
wind up with the hammer not touching the firing pin, i. e. rebounding. The
problem is that the rebounding fork can be taking too much energy out of the
hammer (already much lighter than the original design due to item 2).

I found that the firing pin latch was not releasing the firing pin at the correct
time, so I reworked it to get it to release earlier, but my high hopes were dashed
when the firing pin indents remained VERY light and misfires were common.

I then started shortening the rebound (lower) fork of the firing pin strut. This
moves the final, neutral position of the hammer closer to the firing pin, and will
eventually make it impossible to engage the hammer block "thumb safety"
without slightly retracting the hammer with your hand. I eventually got the
misfires to stop, altho the indents on the primers are FAR lighter than with my
Marlin 1895 .45-70. The firing pin tip diameter has been reduced by the factory
as part of this "redesign" (butchering), I am certain to try to increase the depth
of the primer indentation with the newly crippled hammer system. Mine
works now, but I'm not impressed with the new Winchester "improvements".

As a final note, a friend has an identical new Extra Lite 1886 and has never had
a bit of trouble with his. I'm always the lucky one.

I think they have removed so much energy from the firing system that any slight
variation can cause a problem.

Good luck. Any time you fiddle with safety systems, be certain you understand
mechanically what you are doing and LEGALLY what you may be exposing yourself
to, also. If you have an AD and someone is injured, it will sound pretty lame
to the jury when you say "So I filed off the safety notch to make it shoot better".
You WILL NOT be able to explain it to them; they will think it like "So I cut some
of the shroud lines to make the parachute work better . . . . . "

Be safe, and have a lot of fun.

Bill

[KCSO]

You might check GPC and other parts dealers. When I got my first 1886 and saw the firing system i ordered parts for the older Browning guns and substituted them. I have also filled the Winchester parts with weld and re milled them and converted the system to the old half cock system. This is a pita but they work afterword. I once ordered 5 1886 rifles in 45-70 for our local cowboys and of the 5 3 misfired, strung shots or both. The only other outfit I know doing the reconversion is Turnbull.

[Dale53]

KCSO;
"45-70 for our local cowboys and of the 5 3 misfired, strung shots or both".

This is absolutely pathetic! Glad I am a Marlin man...

Dale53

[Newtire]

I used to have a step by step rifle takedown guide but nost of my books got watersoaked in the "great garage leak of '03." So, do any of these takedown & reassembly books out there deal with the Win 94 stripped down to the bone?

[MtGun44]

I bought an original 1886 firing pin from Gun Parts (Numrich) and it will not
fit in the latest Extra Light 1886. Did not try the hammer. If anybody needs
an 1886 firing pin, I have one that I can't use.

Bill

[beagle]

Bill...sounds perzacltly the problem I have. I hesitate to take it to a service center for the very reason you state..."Can't find anything wrong with it". I have a .44 Mag and haven't had an ounce of trouble with it.

Sounds like that lower prong is the problem. To heck with that safety. I'd as soon not have it.

You know, the M94s (older models) were a near perfect machine within their limitations. Too bad Winchester had to mess with the innards.

My moto is if something ain't broke, don't fix it.

Guess i'll start on the lower fork after Christmas and shorten it a tad and see if I can't get reliable functioning. Thanks for the input./beagle


My Extra Ltwt 1886 was a misfirer from new. Took it to the local Winchester
factory repair station, he fired three rds of factory, said "I don't see any problem".
Asked if I was shooting reloads, which of course is the only ammo ever been
in the rifle, and he blamed it on them. I've been reloading for 40+ yrs and am an
NRA reloading instructor, and the problem is NOT the ammo. He offered to send
it in for factory repair, but allowed as how it would take about 18 months for
that "since they send them to Belgium for repair now". Clipped me for $12 for
3 rds of factory .45-70 and I left in a bad mood.

I started working thru the totally lawyered "redesign" (screwup of a good
John Browning design IMHO) of the firing system. What did I find ?

1 - the firing pin is hollowed out and a latching mechanism is integrated with
a plunger on the back which is hit by the hammer first, releasing the firing pin
latch and then hitting the firing pin. Latching system absorbs hammer energy
even if working perfectly, and mine was not.

2 - The hammer has about 30-40 % of the mass removed by milling the whole
left side off below the metal to make a ledge for the thumb safety (actually a
hammer block) to stop the hammer on. Less mass, less hammer impact energy.
Strike 2.

3 - rebounding hammer, as mentioned by several others on this thread. The
hammer spring pushes on a forked spring guide which engages the hammer
above the pivot pin with one fork and below the pivot pin with the other fork.
When cocked, the upper fork is pushing on the hammer and the lower fork is
not touching anything. As the hammer nears the firing pin, the lower fork reaches
it's seat on the hammer and starts removing energy by opposing the motion of
the hammer! The setup of the two forks makes the hammer neutral position
wind up with the hammer not touching the firing pin, i. e. rebounding. The
problem is that the rebounding fork can be taking too much energy out of the
hammer (already much lighter than the original design due to item 2).

I found that the firing pin latch was not releasing the firing pin at the correct
time, so I reworked it to get it to release earlier, but my high hopes were dashed
when the firing pin indents remained VERY light and misfires were common.

I then started shortening the rebound (lower) fork of the firing pin strut. This
moves the final, neutral position of the hammer closer to the firing pin, and will
eventually make it impossible to engage the hammer block "thumb safety"
without slightly retracting the hammer with your hand. I eventually got the
misfires to stop, altho the indents on the primers are FAR lighter than with my
Marlin 1895 .45-70. The firing pin tip diameter has been reduced by the factory
as part of this "redesign" (butchering), I am certain to try to increase the depth
of the primer indentation with the newly crippled hammer system. Mine
works now, but I'm not impressed with the new Winchester "improvements".

As a final note, a friend has an identical new Extra Lite 1886 and has never had
a bit of trouble with his. I'm always the lucky one.

I think they have removed so much energy from the firing system that any slight
variation can cause a problem.

Good luck. Any time you fiddle with safety systems, be certain you understand
mechanically what you are doing and LEGALLY what you may be exposing yourself
to, also. If you have an AD and someone is injured, it will sound pretty lame
to the jury when you say "So I filed off the safety notch to make it shoot better".
You WILL NOT be able to explain it to them; they will think it like "So I cut some
of the shroud lines to make the parachute work better . . . . . "

Be safe, and have a lot of fun.

Bill

[snowtigger]

Never had a problem with my '94AE Trapper. Course I didn't fire too many rounds through it before I swapped the rebounding hammer for a half-cock hammer set-up.

[MtGun44]

Beagle,

Let me know how it works for you. A question - does the 94 have the
firing pin latching system like 1886 does?

Bill

[mtngunr]

I remember the Scoville article as well, but barring having that around somewhere, this might help.... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=12077

[beagle]

It does.

Now, I think I've discovered the problem and the fix but I'm still not too happy over the fix. I may convert to the half cock system when I find the parts.

The classic problem on the rebounding hammers sems to be a light firing pin strike and mine is no exception. I picked up a bunch of Reming LP primers at a gun show a year or so back. I'd been getting good results in my Marlin levers with cast using LP primers in the .25/35, .32-40 and .32 Special. Naturally when it came time to run a batch of .30/30s, I reached for the LP primers and primed a couple of hundred. The shorter pistol primers lowers the primer by a noticeable amount. That coupled with the light firing pin hit caused my missfires. The Marlins have a strong hit and had no problems.

I loaded 40 rounds Sunday with some Federal LR primers and had no missfires out of the entire 40 rounds. I was going to load and use up some Mag pistol primers I had to use them up when I discovered how low they seated. I immediately punced them and used the Federals. Hopefully, I have the problem fixed now but will be on the lookout for parts to convert to the old system and be done with it.

Looks like what causes the problems and light strike is that the hammer throw and hammer rebound function share and compete for spring tension from the same source and the dimensions of that fork more or less determine who gets how much.

Looks like Winchester and the lawyers fixed us up on this one. Here you have the M94.....an almost perfect machine that has worked well for 100 years and provided great service and they have to go and fix it. Makes you want to tear your hair out./beagle




Beagle,

Let me know how it works for you. A question - does the 94 have the
firing pin latching system like 1886 does?

Bill

[KCSO]

I've converted so many of these i no longer have any old style parts left and GPC is pricing them pretty high these days. Good Luck.

[Old Ironsights]

It does.

Now, I think I've discovered the problem and the fix but I'm still not too happy over the fix. I may convert to the half cock system when I find the parts.

The classic problem on the rebounding hammers sems to be a light firing pin strike and mine is no exception. I picked up a bunch of Reming LP primers at a gun show a year or so back. I'd been getting good results in my Marlin levers with cast using LP primers in the .25/35, .32-40 and .32 Special. Naturally when it came time to run a batch of .30/30s, I reached for the LP primers and primed a couple of hundred. The shorter pistol primers lowers the primer by a noticeable amount. That coupled with the light firing pin hit caused my missfires. The Marlins have a strong hit and had no problems.

I loaded 40 rounds Sunday with some Federal LR primers and had no missfires out of the entire 40 rounds. I was going to load and use up some Mag pistol primers I had to use them up when I discovered how low they seated. I immediately punced them and used the Federals. Hopefully, I have the problem fixed now but will be on the lookout for parts to convert to the old system and be done with it.

Looks like what causes the problems and light strike is that the hammer throw and hammer rebound function share and compete for spring tension from the same source and the dimensions of that fork more or less determine who gets how much.

Looks like Winchester and the lawyers fixed us up on this one. Here you have the M94.....an almost perfect machine that has worked well for 100 years and provided great service and they have to go and fix it. Makes you want to tear your hair out./beagle

There is a relatively easy fix for this, but I don't know it well enough to relate it.

Come over the the Leverguns.com Forum and the guys there will fix you up.