Water-Cooled Wheel Weights Cast Bullets...LARGE Animal Protection???

[Southern Shooter]

I will be casting 360 grain bullets for a short-barrel Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull. The velocity goal would be 1,000 FPS. The material used will be clip-on wheel weights that will be water-quenched. Most will be for target shooting and for woods protection in the Southeast.

However, there will be times that I will be spending time hiking and camping in the backcountry of Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho. If I run into an unhappy, large animal I would like to protect myself and thought about making the bullets used, myself.

Question:
Would water-quenched wheel weights be hard enough to have the needed penetration for large animals? Also, does it matter how cool the water is when the bullets drops in? Does the water temperature effect how hard the cast bullet ends up?

Thanks

[Doc Highwall]

I think you should be able to get along with just air cooled WW.

[Ole]

If you're going to water drop, then a better hunting alloy would be 50% clip on wheel weights and 50% pure lead. Probably a moot point, but you'd be less likely to have a bullet shatter when hitting a large bone with a softer alloy.

Alternatively, you could use straight ww's and let them air cool.

[Southern Shooter]

So, are cast bullets, made from straight wheel weights and AIR COOLED, able to penetrate a large animal without shattering or smashing flat? Water quenching is NOT needed? This would NOT be a hunting bullet. But, rather, is a defensive bullet.

Thanks

[reloader28]

I've been making 320gr FN for my 44mag with water dropped 50/50/2% (lead/WW/tin).

In my thinking, this alloy will be good to keep from expanding too much, yet be maleable enough for hitting bone without shattering.

This is my theory and I aint tested it yet, but if its good for hunting, why wouldnt it be good for a bear? Except I anneal the nose for hunting.


I dont know about the other places your hiking in, but if your around the Beartooths here, be prepared to use your gun. We are swarmed with griz here. We've had 3 or 4 attacks here in the last 3 years and I can look out the window at the closest site. G&F has trapped 8-10 in the last 2 years within a mile of my house. We dont go anywhere without a gun.:Fire:



Actually as I was putting my boots back on, I remembered 2 more attacks last summer. That makes at least 5 in the Cody area, but I keep thinking I'm forgetting another.

[Southern Shooter]

"Water quenched bullets will only work provided arsenic in trace amounts is present in the alloy and current WWs don't have the arsenic in them like the old weights. You can sometimes find shot that has some arsenic in the lead."

The above was stated to me on another website. Is that true about needing arsenic for water quenching to work?

Thanks

[fredj338]

I think you should be able to get along with just air cooled WW.

I agree. I cast straight clip ww in 300grFP. At 1000fps, it penetrates as far in wetpack as mY 404jeffery 380gr softs @ 2250fps. That is plenty for anything that walks this continent.

[HATCH]

my buddy shoots my 38 +p+ rounds out of his 4 inch smith.
It will goe thru one side of a 55 gallon steel drum and put a nice dent in the other side
That is pure WW air cooled
He said some of them will even go all the way out the other side but I suspect its because there was already a dent.

[NHlever]

I remember reading an article by Bob Mileck once about a bear hunt he had in the East. He shot a good sized black bear a few times in the forhead as it advanced towards him quickly. He was using cast boolits, and the angle was right, or the alloy was wrong, but at any rate the bullets flattened out on the bear's forhead, and if I remember right the bear was put down by another member of the party. Bob didn't think too much of the jungle like hunting conditions compared to the wide open spaces he was used too, and I don't believe he ever shot anything meaner than a tin can with a cast boolit after that. Back then the belief was that harder was better, and those boolits could well have been straight linotype. The moral of the story is that I'm going to do some pretty extensive testing on butcher shop shoulders, and heads before I trust my life to any alloy. Short of that I'll be purchasing something like the Barnes "Punch" bullets when my hide is on the line. What we need here, and what is in really short demand is real life experience.

[dverna]

Mossberg 500 or Remmington 870.

A pistol is the worst weapon to face a bear with.

Don

[gray wolf]

Mossberg 500 or Remmington 870.

A pistol is the worst weapon to face a bear with.

Don

I agree all the way with the above quote. A pissed off angry bear can move very fast and be on you in a heart beat. How fast can you shoot and how good can you hit ??
If it were a maybe, could be , perhaps situation I would say " hey use what you want "
But if I were going into known dangerous game country I would have a 12 gauge shotgun.
Slugs and 000 buck---and my side arm.
But hey --that's just me.

[Southern Shooter]

I know the 12 gauge sounds great. But, hiking with 40 lbs. of backpack does not go well with a heavy long-gun.

[Bret4207]

The arsenic issue is a bit over played in that quote in my opinion, but you can add magnum shot and get arsenic.

A 45 cal 360 gr boolit at 1k? Is it a FN? It will probably do fine penetration-wise if WQ. If AC it will probably still do fine. 1K fps isn't likely to make either of them "blow up". The WQ will likely penetrate deeper, but in either case I would be depending more on a nice FN than mushrooming or anything like that.

[stubert]

I shot my last deer in the neck and had 15" strait penetration using air cooled #2 alloy in a 44 mag. Lee 430-310 gr. Not wanting to put a fly in the ointment, Will you be carrying legally?

[Southern Shooter]

Bret4207,

I am looking at one of these two molds for the bullet in mind.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360G-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360V-D.png

Opinions at 1,000 FPS from a 2 1/2" barrel?

Stubert,

Yes, I will be carrying legally.

Thanks

[Nrut]

I agree. I cast straight clip ww in 300grFP. At 1000fps, it penetrates as far in wetpack as mY 404jeffery 380gr softs @ 2250fps. That is plenty for anything that walks this continent.
:drinks:
Southern Shooter,
Read this again..

[Nrut]

Mossberg 500 or Remmington 870.

A pistol is the worst weapon to face a bear with.

Don
Sorry but that is not the case..:Fire:
The beauty of carrying a pistol is that you have it on your person at all times..
A friend stopped and turned/killed a charging grizz using his 5 1/2" Redhawk 300 gr. WFN LBT water dropped alloy with a hardness of 17BHN alloy unknown, max. load of H110..
He was gathering up horses on foot in the spring..
The grizz was feeding on my friends favorite saddle horse..
Carrying a slung rifle or shotgun would have been a pain..
Plus he was able to deploy his handgun quicker than a shotgun/rifle..
He did say that his Redhawk looked mighty puny looking down it's barrel at the grizz..
:Fire:

[reloader28]

The thing I wondered about tho, is the straight WW boolit going to hold up if it hits a bone or two?
Or is it going to break apart?

[waksupi]

The thing I wondered about tho, is the straight WW boolit going to hold up if it hits a bone or two?
Or is it going to break apart?

They stay together quite well.

[RobS]

Regarding penetration...........both air-cooled and water quenched will penetrate however the big thing to recognize is the direction the bullet is traveling once penetration happens where obstructions provide potential shift or detour of the traveling bullet. An air-cooled boolit will expand and form more and my not continue in the straight line as one might hope if impact upon bone happens resulting in the potential of vitals not being directly impacted as hoped. A water quenched boolit will bust right through bone, retain most of its shape and continue on in a straighter path toward the vitals. This is something to really consider when a man eating bear is breathing down your neck. Besides your meplat is quite large and will do much of the work in regards.

[RobS]

If you are still up in the air regarding which mold design you are after (PB vs GC) there is also the viable option of having Tom make you a mold with both designs. I designed the 46-375B and 46-375G and had him build a mold with both designs in it for my Dad’s 45-70 Marlin.


Bret4207,

I am looking at one of these two molds for the bullet in mind.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360G-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360V-D.png

Opinions at 1,000 FPS from a 2 1/2" barrel?

[Bullshop]

Amusing!

[GabbyM]

The 45-360-V and 45-360G not only has to long a nose to fit a Casull chamber it’s a little over weight for the revolver. Said as he reaches for his flame suite. Max nose length on the Casull is .387” per the drawing.

I’ve the Lyman #452651. It’s a monster of a boolit at 325 grains. Gives you two crimp groves. Top one at .300” nose length the other at .375”. Meplat is .300” on this RNFP.
All measurements are me eyeballing over calipers.

Take a look at the 45-300G. Or if you are determined to use an overweight bullet the 45-335C or 45-340-C.

FYI my Lyman bullet comes in at weight with 2/6 alloy even though Lyman’s book list it as from Linotype.

[RobS]

GabbyM:
That's a good point on the nose length; it slipped my attention. The cylinder length on the Ruger SRH 454 Casull is right at 1.750". However boolits over 300-325 grains I don't feel are overweight but I will state that 360 grains is running on the outer limits with a 1:24" twist rate barrel. Heavier and a person is glutton for punishment if planning on optimal accuracy potential as loads needed will be blasting out on the edge of pressures limits to achieve the velocities needed for longer range revolver work. Up close and personal though the heavier designs can be shot reasonably well where the accuracy isn't nearly as precise in nature. I designed the 45-300B and the 45-340B which are plain base boolits and of the two designs Gabby mentioned the 45-340C is the gas check version of mine. The 340 with it's length has been much easier with load development in finding multiple accurate loads for vs the 300. The 340 has very good cylinder support at the base of the boolit as the nose starts to engage the rifling which keeps everything aligned very well and helps reduce the possibilities of slump or canting with the heavier loads.

[garym1a2]

My bad guy ammo is always quality store bought ammo. Untill
I get a few more years experance at it I will stick will ammo from the store. I still make errors sometimes.

[Southern Shooter]

Why would a mold manufacturer be producing a design that is too long for the gun?

I am not too concerned about accuracy past 25 yards. This set-up is for defensive purposes and not hunting. I am just looking for a bullet with a wide meplat and that will penetrate. And, with the weight of the 360 grain with the .39 meplat at 1,000 fps, I thought that would do the trick from the 2 1/2" Ruger Alaskan. I don't want to max out the load.

Thanks

[RobS]

The design could very well work in a Ruger 45 Colt cylinder with the shorter brass.............I don't know for certain though as I don't have a Ruger cylinder in front of me.

[mpmarty]

I believe it was Skeeter Skelton years ago in a gun mag that answered a similar question about using a magnum revolver in Griz/brown bear country. A loose quote goes like this:
"Yes, go ahead and use your cast bullet loads. But lube with bacon grease so when you throw down the empty gun the bear will stop to sniff it while you climb a tree."

[Southern Shooter]

RobS,
I had not thought about that mold being used for .45 Colt brass. Thanks for bringing that up.

I am wondering, if I am still set on the 360 grain mold, what changes should be made to bring it in line for .454 Casull brass useage?

You mentioned the 45-340B, would I be giving up that much penetration with a reduction of 20 grains? Also, what do you think of widening the meplat out from .340 to .345 on that mold?

Thanks

[Bret4207]

Bret4207,

I am looking at one of these two molds for the bullet in mind.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360G-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360V-D.png

Opinions at 1,000 FPS from a 2 1/2" barrel?


Thanks

Whoa! .39 metplat in both. Almost a WC. It should do lots of damage and in WW should hold together through bone. I'm not sure what you'll be looking at as far as penetration goes. The extra wt should help in that respect.

[Bullshop]

If you want a real heavy for your 454 the NEI # 322 was designed for it. In ww alloy it will drop about 390gn.
25gn H110 from a 6" Freedom revolver clocks 1350 fps.
An experiance about penetration you may find interesting. Using a Ruger 45 Colt loaded with quenched WW from a Saeco mold for a 300gn Keith boolit I had to finish a caribou wounded by a client. The caribou was maybe 40 yards going straight away. There was no time for a better shot so I took the rear end shot. The 300 gn boolit was starting at 1000 fps hit the vent and exited the chest dropping the caribou. My packer was watching with binos and said he saw the hide on the chest streach out then a puff of hair. How much penetration does one need?

In another incident I had to shoot a wounded grizz with a 45/70 loaded with a 500gn PP BHN 8. The hit was just under the chin as he was coming at me and the well expanded boolit was found on the rump when the bear was skinned.

Yet another was when at work as a timber faller in South East Alaska in the Tongas I had to shoot a black bear. Leaving out the unbelievable details that lead to the incident suffice to say that a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag loaded with Elmers baby in acww and 21gn 2400
was all that was needed to make two holes per shot in that bear.

[RobS]

RobS,
I had not thought about that mold being used for .45 Colt brass. Thanks for bringing that up.

I am wondering, if I am still set on the 360 grain mold, what changes should be made to bring it in line for .454 Casull brass useage?

The nose length would need to be shortened and I made my desings with .380" nose length for my lever action and has plenty of room for more length in the SRH cylinder. However knowing now what I do I would not change the nose length even if I only shot the revolver. I would have to measure for certain, but a .400 nose is probably close to max length.

You mentioned the 45-340B, would I be giving up that much penetration with a reduction of 20 grains? Also, what do you think of widening the meplat out from .340 to .345 on that mold?

You are not giving up much with 20 grains less that you wouldn't pickup with a higher velocity at the same pressures. As to only going .005 larger in diameter you are only talking about 1% difference in meplat. If you want to see a difference then look at widening the meplat to 80-82% (.360" to .370") or so. My 300 and 340 grain boolits are right at 75% and I designed them that way for the dual purpose of shooting from my revlover and then in the lever action for longer range. Personally I also feel that 1,000 fps is a bit slow and you would be better served or should I say a bear would be better served with a boolit traveling along at a higher velocity as it creates more of a shock wave disrupting tissue (larger wound channel) while maintaining the principle of penetration.

Weight is great if it's moving along well enough to make an impact. A crude analogy: An 18 pound bowling ball moving along the floor so slowly a turtle can keep up come to rest on your big toe...........not so bad. Now have a 15 pound bowling ball moving along at the speed of a running rabbit and now your entire foot/ankel/leg hurts like hell.

Thanks

44man does have good merit with regards to velocity however with your anticipation of using these loads at close range your velcities don't necessarly need to be as high with a shot taken at 30 yard or less vs one at 50 to 100 yards away to create the same internal effects.

[Southern Shooter]

On the topic of deciding between plain-base and gas-checked bullets, what do ya'll think of the idea of using the plain-base check maker by Pat Marlin? I was thinking I could get the plain-base mold and if it was not working out well that a gas-check be brought into play.

Thanks

[Southern Shooter]

RobS and Bullshop,

Thank you for the food for thought. I am beginning to think more and more about the 340 grain molds. Widen out the meplat to .370. It sounds like I would still have plenty of weight and more room to play with and up the velocity if I want to (1,100-1,200 fps)...and, still be very effective for large animal/bear protection.

hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks

[RobS]

On the topic of deciding between plain-base and gas-checked bullets, what do ya'll think of the idea of using the plain-base check maker by Pat Marlin? I was thinking I could get the plain-base mold and if it was not working out well that a gas-check be brought into play.

Thanks

That is my plan and is what I'm up to.

[RobS]

RobS and Bullshop,

Thank you for the food for thought. I am beginning to think more and more about the 340 grain molds. Widen out the meplat to .370. It sounds like I would still have plenty of weight and more room to play with and up the velocity if I want to (1,100-1,200 fps)...and, still be very effective for large animal/bear protection.

hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thanks

Sounds like a plan and if it were me I would work general practice rounds at 1000 fps or so and then load at 1200 fps for bear defense during your camping/trail hiking outings as they'll provide very good internal damage and penetration. All this of course if you are comfortable shooting the highend loads with good follow up shots.

[Catshooter]

They stay together quite well.

Sssshhhhh. Listen, this is the voice of experience.


Cat

[Bret4207]

If you want a real heavy for your 454 the NEI # 322 was designed for it. In ww alloy it will drop about 390gn.
25gn H110 from a 6" Freedom revolver clocks 1350 fps.
An experiance about penetration you may find interesting. Using a Ruger 45 Colt loaded with quenched WW from a Saeco mold for a 300gn Keith boolit I had to finish a caribou wounded by a client. The caribou was maybe 40 yards going straight away. There was no time for a better shot so I took the rear end shot. The 300 gn boolit was starting at 1000 fps hit the vent and exited the chest dropping the caribou. My packer was watching with binos and said he saw the hide on the chest streach out then a puff of hair. How much penetration does one need?

In another incident I had to shoot a wounded grizz with a 45/70 loaded with a 500gn PP BHN 8. The hit was just under the chin as he was coming at me and the well expanded boolit was found on the rump when the bear was skinned.

Yet another was when at work as a timber faller in South East Alaska in the Tongas I had to shoot a black bear. Leaving out the unbelievable details that lead to the incident suffice to say that a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag loaded with Elmers baby in acww and 21gn 2400
was all that was needed to make two holes per shot in that bear.

Dan, your experience pretty much lines up with mine in finding that simple WW at moderate velocity penetrates like all get out. Am 8mm Karibiner at 1600 fps went the length of a fresh 2K draft horse carcass. A 429421 at 800 fps was found well into the chest of a Holstien cow after a frontal head shot. I just wasn't sure about the near WC shape of SS's choice in designs. The 311440 is sort of similar, although the sectional density may be well different, and it penetrates very well IMO.

[Bullshop]

That reminded me of a WT deer I shot with a Marlin 44 mag. Same load as the black bear Elmers 250gn boolit in acww with 21gn 2400.
The 4x4 buck was walking right at me and the hit was in the chest. I found most of the boolit about 180gn of it under the hide on the rump.
The load clocked about 1700 fps from the Marlins muzzle and the range was about 50 yards.

[Thumbcocker]

Waksupi and Bullshop: thanks. There is no substitute for them that has been there and "seen the critter"

[Matt_G]

I can't add to the penetration discussion; others have done a very good job there. However, I do want to say something about the following quote:

"Water quenched bullets will only work provided arsenic in trace amounts is present in the alloy and current WWs don't have the arsenic in them like the old weights. You can sometimes find shot that has some arsenic in the lead."

The above was stated to me on another website. Is that true about needing arsenic for water quenching to work?

As stated, that statement is flat false. You do not need any arsenic at all to heat treat a lead-antimony alloy. What arsenic does do, is to act as a "catalyst" when heat treating. In other words, it allows an alloy to obtain higher BHN numbers with a certain percentage of Sb than it would without it, when that alloy is heat treated.

Dennis Marshall in his article Stronger Bullets With Less Alloying (Cast Bullets published by the NRA) states on page 125:


"...metallurgists have found that very small additions of arsenic, from 0.05% to 0.5% enhance the hardenability of antimony alloys by a quite disproportionate amount - even though arsenic alone is of little value for strengthening lead."
There is a table showing that an alloy consisting of 4.4% Sb had a BHN of 24.3 after being heat treated at 482 degrees Fahrenheit for 2 hours and aging for 3 days.
A very similar alloy (5.0% Sb) and 0.17% arsenic was given the same treatment. It tested at 37.2 BHN.
So you can see that the arsenic had quite an effect in the end results; however, it was not needed to harden the alloy via heat treating. The alloy that tested at 24.3 only tested at 14.3 prior to heat treatment.

[nanuk]

Bullshop and Bret4207.... More stories please.

I enjoy hearing about real world experiences on game I will never hunt.

Full penetration from moderate velocity cast boolits seem be completely forgotten by many young shooters who have bought into the Magnumania

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

my cusin shot a bear a few years back , now the dogs had it good an pissed it went up on it's hind legs the guide told him under the chin when he stands he did just that it at 40 yards with a factory 12 ga slug , that bear cam down and charged 35 of those 40 yards taking another 12 ga slug it on the way before it colapsed and that was a black bear here in wisconsin were they tell us how non agresive the black bear is supposed to be compared to grizzly

i would rather have a big hand gun than nothing but i would rather my 6 gun stay holstered till my 12 ga full of slugs is empty

factory winchester rifled 2 3/4 inch slugs will penetrate a deer near end for end as will a 410 gr flat point soft lead conical over 90 gr of 777 i have shot a few head on and dug the slug from the pelvis i shot one with the 410 conical it turned to look back at me i was shooting for the back of the neck it fell a bit low and hit just above the tail plowed thru 8 inches of spine then thru the organs and i found it against a broken rib nearly 3 feet from the entrance

a 12 ga 1oz slug is 437.5 gr winchester says 1700fps

i just looked at the book 454 casull with a 300 gr jacketed the book has win 296 pushing it out to 1750 even the cast load for a 300 gr pushes 1400 , 1750 would seem like a better load for bear than 1k

[Bullshop]

OK I was hunting on the fringes of the Big Hole valley in Montana. Late in the day I took a perch on a knob in a lodge pole thicket right in a game trail. About an hour before dark it started getting very windy. The wind blew down a tree on the other side of the knob I was sitting on and where a nice bull elk had been bedded. It spooked him and he started running the trail right at me. I heard him coming and lined up my sights down the trail.
I was shooting a Sharps conversion carbine in 50/70. It was loaded with the Lyman Gov. boolit at 450gn and 60gn Goex FG powder. It was good for maybe 1000 fps.
He came jogging around the horn looking back to see what spooked him.
If you have ever seen the original Lorance sights on a military Sharps you will understand why I let him get close enough to make me feel nervous about being run over. I touched it off at about 25 yards and had to duck down to look under the smoke.
I could see him doing a side step down hill then tipped over and rolled until he hit some blow downs. He never kicked once he tipped over.
When I gutted him I found the boolit had hit about dead center in the chest and made a clean hole center of the heart. It continued through the lungs, paunch,and exited the vent. Perty good penetration for a slow fat slug. Didn't ruin a bit of meat either.

[GabbyM]

Accurate Molds are lathe bored. He will cut a meplat to whatever you want provided it can work with his tooling. Keep in mind more is not always better.

Someone mentioned borderline stability with a 360 grain bullet in a Casull 1-24“ barrel twist. I’d not even thought about stability. If it is marginal your bullet may yaw after impact then take off in a random directions or do complete tumbles. Note I’m not saying it absolutely would but is a possibility. I’m thinking with a 2 ½ inch barrel you’d be lucky to get 1200 fps from a 300 grain bullet. Until you start surpassing 1,200 fps you don’t need a heavier bullet.
I like the Lyman 325gr I have. The dual crimp groves in the Lyman bullet give you some flexibility. My guess would be you’ll need a gas check bullet to run good. In my Lyman book all three bullets they listed for the 454 Casull have gas checks.

I think this Lyman bullet copied to the tee except replace the RNFP with a secant ogive nose would make a great bullet in the Casull. Maybe widen the meplat by .020” or so if it would make you feel better but not to get carried away. Or just get the Lyman #452651 as is . 325 grain is not a small bullet. Especially in a snub nosed gun!

The 460 S&W is a .451” bore in spite of it’s name. It can take longer bullets and uses a 1-20” twist rate. Which is probably what the 360 grain bullets are designed for.

[Southern Shooter]

Bullshop,

The experience you had with that bull elk and the relatively slow moving 450 grain bullet is what I was aiming at with the idea of a 360 grain, wide meplat bullet at 1,000 fps. I am wanting something that will dig deep and wide within 25 yards and that I could half-way control.

[waksupi]

my cusin shot a bear a few years back , now the dogs had it good an pissed it went up on it's hind legs the guide told him under the chin when he stands he did just that it at 40 yards with a factory 12 ga slug , that bear cam down and charged 35 of those 40 yards taking another 12 ga slug it on the way before it colapsed and that was a black bear here in wisconsin were they tell us how non agresive the black bear is supposed to be compared to grizzly

i would rather have a big hand gun than nothing but i would rather my 6 gun stay holstered till my 12 ga full of slugs is empty

factory winchester rifled 2 3/4 inch slugs will penetrate a deer near end for end as will a 410 gr flat point soft lead conical over 90 gr of 777 i have shot a few head on and dug the slug from the pelvis i shot one with the 410 conical it turned to look back at me i was shooting for the back of the neck it fell a bit low and hit just above the tail plowed thru 8 inches of spine then thru the organs and i found it against a broken rib nearly 3 feet from the entrance

a 12 ga 1oz slug is 437.5 gr winchester says 1700fps

i just looked at the book 454 casull with a 300 gr jacketed the book has win 296 pushing it out to 1750 even the cast load for a 300 gr pushes 1400 , 1750 would seem like a better load for bear than 1k

I wouldn't much trust a factory loaded slug for bear, or anything else. If I was going to use them, I would be loading them with round ball. Much more effective killer. I have seen the mess that factory slugs do on deer, and am not favorably impressed, by a long shot. Too much trauma, too much blood shot meat. The too big wound lets them run a long way. A smaller clean wound channel kills much quicker.

Adding arsenic to lead is not necessary. It is one of the elements that occur naturally in lead, and is not completely removed in the refining of the metal.

[RobS]

Reaching 1200 fps with a 340 grain boolit from a 2 1/2" barrel I feel is possible for the 454 Casull cartridge; it'll be an upper end load though. For every 1" of barrel let’s estimate 50 fps. Difference between a 7 1/2" barrel and a 2 1/2 barrel then is 250 fps or let’s figure 300 fps. Freedom Arms has jacketed info with 300 grain bullets running 1650 fps with 2400 which is a powder that may work quit well in the shorter Alaskan barrel. #9 may also be a very viable possibility for powder selection. http://www.freedomarms.com/loading.html

Further more this link http://www.lasc.us/AfricanHunt-CastBullets.htm provides some more info as to heavies shot from magnum revolvers and includes 454 Casull info. A particular section talks about a 345 grain JDJ boolit trucking along at 1600 fps. Comparing the freedom arms 300 grain jacketed info, the hodgdon online load data as well as my Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook I would say it is very doable to push a 340 grain bullet to 1200 fps with the Alaskan and it would take around 90% of a max 2400 charge, whatever that might be for a particular 340 grain hard cast boolit.

The Lyman book has the 452651 (45 cal 325grain RF) pushed with 2400 and running along at 1,354 fps with 34,800 CUP which is comparable to a full house 44 magnum in regards to pressure, however this 2400 load of 20 grains is not even close to reaching the upper limits of the boolit/powder combo (only 62-63%) of the SAAMI max of 55,000 CUP for the 454 Casull cartridge.

Some more to think about.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
We are talking low (blk. powder) vel. with a 45 cal ww bullet here.
So here is real life experience.
NOT A PERFECT FIT TO YOUR SITUATION . BUT INFO THAT MIGHT HELP YOU DECIDE.
I am a black powder deer hunter. I shoot a 45 , with 110 grs. of blk p. a 478 gr spire point bullet. NOT THE BEST DESIGN FOR SHOCK/KILLING, BUT GOOD FOR RANGE.
Alloy is 1# Pb to 4# WW air cooled.
4 deer broadside chest full penetration & exit. Ranges 100yds or less.
1 deer penetration full length into chest & out the hip.
So your air cooled WW will be plenty hard enough to hold together.
1, 5 point elk broadside chest with exit, 200yds. 58 cal muzzle loader, pure lead.

Just remember most big game was hunted & killed with lead bullets, j-bullets are a recent invention, compared to gunpowder. This applies to Africa dangerous game too.
Bullet placement is more important than your alloy.
Yes , I would prefer a modern rifle in your situation.
BUT A PISTOL IS IN REACH OF MY HAND EVEN DURING NATURE CALLS. AND IS NICE TO CUDDLE UP TO IN THE SLEEPING BAG. CAN NOT BRING A LONG GUN TO BEAR IN A BACKPACKERS TENT VERY FAST EITHER.:Fire::Fire:

[Mavrick]

Only ONE thing shatters when I hit bone...bone.
I use a .41 Mag with cast WW+2% usually AC. With WC it's just more of the same.
That being said, if I were to hit a major ball-joint (we're talking griz or elk) we're likely to divert, slightly mishapen, but shatter? Nope!
Not to disparage Mr. Milek, but I suspect that the multitude of "flattened" boolits may have not been recovered.
Have fun,
Gene

[Bret4207]

my cusin shot a bear a few years back , now the dogs had it good an pissed it went up on it's hind legs the guide told him under the chin when he stands he did just that it at 40 yards with a factory 12 ga slug , that bear cam down and charged 35 of those 40 yards taking another 12 ga slug it on the way before it colapsed and that was a black bear here in wisconsin were they tell us how non agresive the black bear is supposed to be compared to grizzly

i would rather have a big hand gun than nothing but i would rather my 6 gun stay holstered till my 12 ga full of slugs is empty

factory winchester rifled 2 3/4 inch slugs will penetrate a deer near end for end as will a 410 gr flat point soft lead conical over 90 gr of 777 i have shot a few head on and dug the slug from the pelvis i shot one with the 410 conical it turned to look back at me i was shooting for the back of the neck it fell a bit low and hit just above the tail plowed thru 8 inches of spine then thru the organs and i found it against a broken rib nearly 3 feet from the entrance

a 12 ga 1oz slug is 437.5 gr winchester says 1700fps

i just looked at the book 454 casull with a 300 gr jacketed the book has win 296 pushing it out to 1750 even the cast load for a 300 gr pushes 1400 , 1750 would seem like a better load for bear than 1k

The largest black bear I ever saw taken was a 551 lbs male killed with one shot from a factory 38 Special RN from a Smith. Shot placement worked in that case and the boolit penetrated into the brain case. I've seen 12 ga slugs fail to penetrate a car door on an angled shot. A local "tough old lady" shot and killed black bears after her sheep every year, and her venison, with a 25-20. Another very experienced old tyme hunter I knew had complete faith in his 44-40 Winchester. Another, a Forest Ranger, used a 32-20 in a Remington pump IIRC. Shot placement. A bear hit in the brain with a 22lr, 12 ga slug, 32-20 or 454 is just as dead as long as the boolit/bullet PENETRATES. Body shots are a whole nuther story, but the concept is similar. Break both shoulders on a bear, deer, elephant and it's not moving. Getting the projectile into the boiler room with enough oomph left to damage the innards is the key.

I guess it's up to the shooter to decide what method he chooses to deliver his shot. You can go with Elmer and the fairly heavy slug at moderately high velocity, the Weatherby/O'Connor/Page school with high velocity and fairly light bullets, the 1950's ultra high velocity very light bullet (all those 17's they used on wild burros, etc.), a dependable old round ball or whatever tickles your fancy. All that's required is enough velocity and weight to penetrate to the target (I prefer an exit wound too) and enough toughness that the projectile won't go to pieces. Myself, I have faith in simple lead alloys and FN profiles as long as I can put the shot where I want it and the load is suitable for the target. Defining "suitable" is the fun part!:mrgreen:

[blackthorn]

Bullshop--Do I smell a book in the future???

[HammerMTB]

There are some funny replies from those that haven't shot a big critter with a big slow slug!
I will add one that continues the theme:
A farmer friend used to share his beef with me. His complaint was that he couldn't kill the steer quick enough, and felt that the beef was tougher for having all that adrenaline in it after he shot it.
When asked what he used, he replied "My .22, like the kill truck" I pointed out that the butcher in the kill truck placed the shot with the .22 very carefully so it didn't have to penetrate a thick cow skull.
So I volunteered to kill the next one for him.
I brought my RH .44 with a 1000FPS load and 240SWC boolit.
A shot to the front of the skull right above the eyes had the steer turn clear upside down and kick all 4 legs in the air. That farmer was over the fence and on that cow so fast the blood just spurted out when he cut its throat. Near made me sick to see so much blood spew out so fast.
He'd talk about that kill nearly every time we met after that.
The beef was very tender, which he attributed to the quick kill.
There was a .44 hole in its forehead. We never did recover the boolit, but it did not exit. I expect it was down in the guts somewhere.
I would not hesitate a moment to take such a load to hunt dangerous game in NA. Might want to think about it in Africa, but not here. If it don't work, it wouldn't be the hardware. It'd be the nut behind the trigger.

[44man]

The heavy boolit from the wrong twist and a short barrel will be just fine at close range and I will not argue at all. Penetration is all you will need too if the boolit does work inside.
I have killed hundreds of deer with muzzle loaders using a .45 flinter, .50, 54, round balls mostly but a few with a Maxi Ball in the .50 TC. ALL killed very fast and the only ball I ever recovered was when I broke both shoulders and the spine. Looked like it was hit with a .338 mag. Most deer never went anywhere and any that ran would smash into trees and go down quick.
With revolvers, the .44 does great with hard WD boolits until range gets longer like 100 yards, then they run a ways.
The .475 is the only revolver I have that acts like a muzzle loader when I use hard boolits yet at long range deer will run some.
The .45 Colt a little slower gets none of the reaction from deer that the .44 and .475 gets but it just takes a little longer for them to stop. The 45-70 BFR with hard just pokes a hole and deer can go 200 yards so it needs a softer boolit.
Doing a necropsy on every deer has shown me that right around 1350 fps does the most internal damage with hard boolits. Slower or faster needs a little expansion.
But nothing works as good as full penetration and is what I always look for even with some expansion.
I never shot a large animal but I figure the faster 45-70 with a hard boolit will work in a large animal because it will slow enough inside to do more damage and it would work better on deer at long range but deer close are harder to stop. I NEED to break shoulders.
I figure the alloy you choose will make up for changes in velocity as long as you keep penetration. The animal size and distance also has a bearing on boolit damage. I try to reach a balance but it is harder then I thought to make one boolit work at 20 yards and also 100.
The big problem has been the loss of accuracy if I go too soft and some that would do great at 20 yards would not hit a deer at 100.
I would be better off with a softer nose and a hard base and it could be only the difference between an air cooled nose and a water dropped base but that is hard to do so the nose just needs a different alloy that stays ductile.
Comes another problem, damage only one side of the nose on a bone and the boolit can turn, the boolit must deform evenly to keep it straight.
I know I am rambling but you can see, it is not as easy to predict performance with every boolit as some think.
I will never believe penetration alone is enough and a slow, heavy revolver boolit will have it but what it does inside is also important so I would lean more to 1200 fps then I would to 1000. I would feel better with around 1300 fps to put the hurt on a bear so it stops faster.
At the slower speeds, I would prefer just a little nose upset to widen the primary wound channel without stopping the boolit.
The question is about a very heavy and slow .454 boolit from a short barrel.
I think I would lighten the boolit and speed it up, keep it hard enough for penetration. Trade a little weight to gain a little speed.
Use a longer barrel to get powder burn and boolit weight can go up.
The .454 can handle very heavy boolits but I will not own anything under 7-1/2" for hunting so forgive me if I know nothing about a tiny barrel.

[pmer]

44man wrote:
"I would be better off with a softer nose and a hard base and it could be only the difference between an air cooled nose and a water dropped base but that is hard to do so the nose just needs a different alloy that stays ductile. "

You described a Nosler Partitian..:kidding:

Air cooled WW and let er buck! Don't forget super high boolit pull and an expert crimp. Don't need any boolits backing out.

hit hit hit hit hit hit would be better than miss miss graze miss hit hit [smilie=s:

[Doc Highwall]

He also described the Lyman composite bullet where you cast a base out of hard lead and the nose out of soft lead and then epoxied the two pieces together.

[lbaize3]

In the late 1970's my parents and I drove to Alaska. There are a number of things about the trip that I shall never forget. One being the stories we read to each other out of a book about bear attacks.

It appears that there was a Canadian gold prospector that owned an unusual 33 caliber rifle and a 38 caliber revolver. Being close-mouthed about where he worked his claim, the man would disappear for months and then show back up at his home village. However, in the early 1900's he went to his claim and did not show back up. He was missing for a number of years. People always thought he had died and his body was lost, but everyone was always curious about what had happened to the old prospector.

About seven years after the old prospector had disappeared, another prospector noticed a grizzly trying to ease up on his camp. The man killed the bear and while he was skinning and cleaning the bear he found several 33 caliber bullets under the bear's hide. Then, he found six thirty-eight caliber bullets in a tight group in the roof of the bear's mouth. Everyone put two and two together and realized that the bear had killed the missing prospector. But the thing that makes you think.... is where the old prospector had to be to fire the 38's up into the roof of the bear's mouth....

Wonder how it would have turned out if he had had a 45 Colt?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I don't have lots of stories about penetration, but I do have one I can share about black bears and 44 mags.
1992 I shot my only black bear with a Ruger Redhawk 7-1/2 inch stainless. Loaded with 300 grain Keith style SWC cast bullets I bought from a local store. No idea how hard they where 'cept I was able to scratch them with a finger nail. Dont' remember the charge, but enough 2400 to move that 300 grains at 1250 fps.
Shot was a paced 100 yards off hand, bear running full tilt, quartering away. I mis-judged the lead, hit the bear square on the left rear hip joint. 260 grains of that slug was recovered under the hide outside the RF shoulder. Complete destruction of the rear hip joint and the right front shoulder.
I was sold on the penetration of a 44 mag after that hunt.

I would not try that shot today, as I don't shoot near enough to be that confident. At that time, I was shooting 500+ rounds a week and could keep 5 of 6 shots on a beer can at 100 yards.
Not anymore :cry:

[pmer]

44man wrote:
"I would be better off with a softer nose and a hard base and it could be only the difference between an air cooled nose and a water dropped base but that is hard to do so the nose just needs a different alloy that stays ductile. "

You described a Nosler Partitian..:kidding:

Air cooled WW and let er buck! Don't forget super high boolit pull and an expert crimp. Don't need any boolits backing out.

hit hit hit hit hit hit would be better than miss miss graze miss hit hit [smilie=s:


He also described the Lyman composite bullet where you cast a base out of hard lead and the nose out of soft lead and then epoxied the two pieces together.

Thanks Doc, I Thought you were making a funny until I searched some on the composite bullet. It must be difficult to get that correct. It makes me think of the grassy knoll in Texas :)

[Southern Shooter]

Hello,
It was mentioned in earlier replies that Accurate Molds #45-360G and #45-360V were too long to be used in the .454 Casull brass. And, that such would be more appropriately used in .45 Colt brass. Well, ya'll are correct. I e-mailed Tom of Accurate Molds concerning that issue. He confirmed that such is the case.

However, he did propose a new 360 grain, plain-based .45 mold. It would have a .370 meplat with a nose that would fit the Casull cylinders. So, let's wait and see. :popcorn:

Thanks

[44man]

44man wrote:
"I would be better off with a softer nose and a hard base and it could be only the difference between an air cooled nose and a water dropped base but that is hard to do so the nose just needs a different alloy that stays ductile. "

You described a Nosler Partitian..:kidding:

Air cooled WW and let er buck! Don't forget super high boolit pull and an expert crimp. Don't need any boolits backing out.

hit hit hit hit hit hit would be better than miss miss graze miss hit hit [smilie=s:
That is a problem! :groner: The 45-70 has a long jump to the rifling and air cooled is just not accurate enough. I actually do better with a 50-50 alloy, oven hardened but there are enough fliers that it shortens the range. Both need gas checks.
Water dropped WW's let me shoot PB.
I can't even wring out accuracy with air cooled in the .44.
I do have a solution to all of these problems. It is good for 10 yards or less and it will take a gooorilla to extend range! [smilie=l:

[Southern Shooter]

Hi Folks,

Well, Tom has the new .454 Casull bullet mold in Accurate Molds on-line catalog. What do ya'll think?

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360C-D.png

[badbob454]

Bret4207,

I am looking at one of these two molds for the bullet in mind.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360G-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360V-D.png

Opinions at 1,000 FPS from a 2 1/2" barrel?

Stubert,

Yes, I will be carrying legally.

Thanks

i would use water quench w/w boolits as my bullets always harden so i dont think the arsenic quantity is an issue ,these will not shatter at 1000 fps on bone and if you use the gas check boolit i think with the higher pressures of the 454 casull (60,000 psi ) the gas check will help to be more accurate ,less deformation of the boolit , .. my question is will the 2" barrel give you the 1,000 fps ? if so this should work good the 454 casull is advertised in guns and ammo as able to go through 5 feet of meat and bone about the size af a large grizz.:Fire: ps save one shot for up close and personal in his mouth or center of neck

[Pachyderm]

I use the Lyman 300gr bullet which weighs just on 324 lubed with a hornady gas check and sized to .430. The lead I use is 9 ww to 1 50/50 bar solder, cast at around 700f and then water quenched. I have chronoed this at about 1200fps and I have finished off a Cap Buffalo with a head shot between the eyes. Penetration was good and the bullet had only lost about 30gr when I recovered it. It had flattened at the front of the bullet to about 1 and a quarter of its original diameter. BHN was tested at around 14 using a LBT tester.

[DrNick]

Mossberg 500 or Remmington 870.

A pistol is the worst weapon to face a bear with.

Don

The gun that saves your life is the gun you have WITH you. No dount that a pistol is less than ideal for bear defense but it's a hell of a lot better than the shotgun leaning against the wall of the cabine a hundred yards away :)

[edward hogan]

Hey Southern!

Whatever happened with your SRH Alaskan Casull defense-gun project?

So much great info on this thread. Have a standard bbl SRH Casull and cast the Lyman 452651 boolit from 100% WW alloy and water drop them.

Any updates or experiences with your defense carry needs?

[popper]

Used to be a state bear hunter in the Washington rain forest(50s & 60s). He carried, if I remember, a 357 or 44 revolver. Too tight spaces to turn around a rifle of any kind. I doubt he used cast but brought back a lot of ears. Then there is the kid who shot the bear with a 12 ga slug. It died eventually, but not before it put a terrible hurt on the kid. Just don't carry a 22 like that fishing guide in Alaska did.

[NVScouter]

While I've delt with pesky blackbears for ever brown bears were new for me when I was working in Alaska. I opted for the new Redhawk 45LC 4" a few years ago. I shoot the LEE 340g .458 boolit sized at .452 at 1100fps. Its a nasty kicking load but I can hit a pie plate with all six shots rapid fire (as ralid at can be with that load) at 15yards and slow fire to 35y. I've held that 2" 454 and you can get the velocity but I'm not sure what you can hit at a range that may allow you more than 1 shot.


Bret4207,

I am looking at one of these two molds for the bullet in mind.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360G-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360V-D.png

Opinions at 1,000 FPS from a 2 1/2" barrel?

Stubert,

Yes, I will be carrying legally.

Thanks

[NVScouter]

I believe it was Skeeter Skelton years ago in a gun mag that answered a similar question about using a magnum revolver in Griz/brown bear country. A loose quote goes like this:
"Yes, go ahead and use your cast bullet loads. But lube with bacon grease so when you throw down the empty gun the bear will stop to sniff it while you climb a tree."

Thats funny right there.

It reminds me of the clerk I heard tell a fool about the 2"Alaskan E-kit pistolin at the now defunct Gun Trader of Reno. He said "The barrel is short so if your hand is in the grizzlies maw you can rotate it and blow his brains out!" That Kalifornian dropped $$ right there for that kit and had it transfered back to Sacramento. The E-kit was an orange Pelican case with bear spray ( I think), pistol with large orange grips, and some other stuff that added about $500 to the price tag FYI.

I also like the line of thinking about bear defense that goes like this: "just load some 200g HP at 1100fp to make sure it takes your head clean off the first shot"...............

[Matt_G]

Thats funny right there.

It reminds me of the guy clerk I heard tell a fool about the 2"Alaskan E-kit pistolin the now Gun Trader of Reno. He said "The barrel is so short so if your hand is in the grizzlies maw you can rotate it and blow his brains out!" That Kalifornian dropped $$ right there for that kit and had it transfered back to Sacramento.

I also like the line of thinking about bear defense that goes like this: "just load some 200g HP at 1100fp to make sure it takes your head clean off the first shot"...............

Actually I have always been partial to the philosophy that if you are going into bear country, take somebody with you that you can out run.

[Southern Shooter]

Gee...ha ha...I had forgotten about this thread. Happen to stumble across it at lunch. Well, edward hogan and others, the project turned out well. With the water-quenched 362 grain cast bullet and 23.5 grains of W296 the velocity is averaging around 1,037 FPS. Whatever it may lack in speed I am hoping the .37" meplat will help make up. I am sure others can get more out of the little beast. But, for a 2.58" barrel and easy to handle, I am not going to complain.

And, no...I have not had the chance to use it on an animal, at all. Just a lot of paper targets.

As important as the bullet and gun are, the addition of a holster that makes the gun easy to access has made a difference. Some of you have heard me talk of my Guide's Choice holster made by Diamond D Custom Leather. It is worth every nickle I spent.

See the picture from my father/daughter trip to The Grand Tetons.
59726

For a woods-load down here in the South I am casting a Lee 452-255-RF. The bullet is dropping at 264 grains and is water-quenched. For a real soft load I am loading 11 grains of Unique and getting about 1,025 FPS. For a stiffer round I am loading it with 17.5 grains of Blue Dot and that is pushing 1,200 FPS.

[Frozone]

I have oven hardened 'new' WW to > 32 BHN and they stay there, that means there is arsenic in them.
I really don't think the mix has changed. But if they are that hard they are also brittle and will turn to dust if they hit a hard object.

I use a water dropped 355gr pill in My 454 SRH (7" barrel) on top of 26.5gr of Lilgun for 1550fps.
That goes clean through a moose even if it hits a bone. I haven't had to use it on a bear - yet. And rather hope I don't have too, but I think it'll do the job.

[BAGTIC]

A lot of people worry about HTWW shattering on bone. I have never met anyone who actually had one shatter, only those who 'heard' it could happen. I believe linotype has been known to shatter. Personally mine don't shatter against engine blocks and such so I am not going to worry about a few bones.

[Frozone]

.......Personally mine don't shatter against engine blocks and such ......

WOW, you can get hardened lead to go through cast iron???
I'm impressed, I've had 34BHN shatter on knots in hardwood.
for that matter I had one break in the crimp die... snapped right at the crimp

[edward hogan]

That's a great chest holster for your Casull Alaskan!

I dunno about cast bullets penetrating engine blocks, but my old load of 27.5 win 296 went 27" into a slab of dead/seasoned Cottonwood. Chopped it out w/a hatchet and looked good as new, save for rifling marks. No gas check. Am no loading at 25.0 gr w/no qualms of being undergunned in the woods.

Had some 300gr XTP Mag leftover and put some into .45Colt Starline cases at 18.0gr of 296. Two-legged defense load... Just about the lightest load Hornady shows at 1050fps or thereabouts. Might be something for fast DA work which is my main concern for defense situations. Same reason would NEVER rely on a Single-Action in bear country where any distraction beyond trigger pulling could be fatal.

My idea of a defense piece runs to a 1911, maybe loaded with 230gr .45 Super flat point fmj at most manageable velocity if standard 230 ball is not enough... Damn concussion from my 7.5" Casull is more than I want to incur w/o plugs & muffs. Same way from 4" 629 loaded anywhere above .44sp levels. .45acp though is halfway comfortable.

Know a couple guys who've bumped into brown bears. One walking up to his house w/arms full of groceries, other as he came face to face w/bear on other side of a large tree. Both were carrying 1911s in .45acp. Neither dropped the bear, but the bear did not maul them either. Any bear shooting that you come through up here is a good one...

[Frozone]

..... One (guy) walking up to his house w/arms full of groceries, other as he came face to face w/bear on other side of a large tree.
Both were carrying 1911s in .45acp. .......

The bear had a 1911 too!!!!:holysheep

[BAGTIC]

Mine test BHN 28 and I have never had one shatter or snap. Perhaps you are experiencing 'too much of a good thing'.

[Matt_G]

Perhaps you are experiencing 'too much of a good thing'.

Yep, too much brittleness. BHN and brittleness do NOT go hand in hand.
Lino (high Sb content) is a lower BHN than 28 but would be a lot more brittle than what BAGTIC is using.
You can have an alloy that heat treats to a high BHN yet still be malleable.

[44man]

Yep, too much brittleness. BHN and brittleness do NOT go hand in hand.
Lino (high Sb content) is a lower BHN than 28 but would be a lot more brittle than what BAGTIC is using.
You can have an alloy that heat treats to a high BHN yet still be malleable.
This is true. My water dropped WW boolits average 20 BHN with some batches reaching 22 BHN. That is my accuracy spot.
Take a 50-50 alloy and oven harden to 18 to 20 BHN for accuracy and it does no harm to expansion or the ductile properties. The very worst damage I ever did to a deer was with one of these, it was three times worse then an expanding jacketed. The boolit did not stop either and is still in orbit.
I shoot the 452651 and it drops at 347 gr with my WW's, from my Vaquero at 1160 fps. I don't think anything will stop that boolit. It works great with the 1 in 16" twist but the 1 in 24" of the Freedom might prove unstable. I have shot 1" groups with the Vaquero at 75 yards but you might get sideways boolits from the Freedom. Sadly the Ruger SRH also has a 1 in 24" rate. BFR has 1 in 16" for the .454.
The slow twist .454's will work better with a lighter boolit and it will not change the affect on game. The boolit is still heavy enough. A 300 to 335 gr will do it all.
There is only one reason I never wanted a .454---The SR primer.
Cut down .460 brass in the 1 in 16" of the BFR would make a wonderful heavy boolit gun.

[GLynn41]

about Bob Milic those bullets he used were also only going around 1050 to 1100 -6 grains of unique-i still have the article (some where) - can not remember hardness--but Bob was a JHP feller all the way --LBT had not gotten going yet --every thing was a Keith back then or SWC -- as he repeated the event it was a cast bullet
failure --for him JSP should have been used -which is fine - but even a swc or Keith type likley would have done different if he had jacked them up - any way he was always a good read- you are right he liked wide open spaces to hunt