IMR 4756 roundball loads

[Smoke73]

Looking for a starting point for imr 4756 utilizing .717 roundballs. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

[Kskybroom]

What is the weight of the round ball
Wad or over powder card ?
Hulls ?
Is this for a 10ga ??
More info
AND WELCOME TO THE FORM...........

[Smoke73]

2 3/4 super x heavy game hulls and WAA12SL pink wads with pedals trimmed back to squeeze it down a 12 bore thanx

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Smoke, you have too many variables in a shotgun barrels, some are .745" ID and some have .729 while some have .725" ID.
First thing you need to find out is what is your barrel ID.
Lets say your barrel is overbored and measure .745" then perhaps you can find a wad that will measure around .746 to .748 with your RB of .717".
If your barrel is .730 or .729 then your .717 will be to tight in wad and cause pressure hike,
if you were to cut off the petals and load your .717 ball it will bounce and rattle travelling down the barrel and there will be no telling which way it will bounce at the moment it exits.
If you were to choose .678" round ball of 460 grain and put it in a wad that measures .731" or .732"
with a fiction fit your round ball will travel straight in the direction of your barrel giving you a accurate load!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/RoundBallsinwad.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/RBinwadcopy.jpg
Accuracy from a shotgun slug/round ball is a function of two things:
1, A good gas seal.
2, Centering the slug / round ball in the bore.
Achieve those two and you can shoot as well as many rifles up to 100 yards with a proper custom tailored load!
The sphere is the most difficult geometric form to deform or destroy.
Round ball can be far more deadly if you aim for solid bones, and death is not far away.
Hope it helps.
Ajay Madan
Video Memories
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[Smoke73]

Pedals will be cut to one third of original length then a dash of cream of wheat and then ball rapped in Teflon to achieve .731 which is .002 overbore. Will keep experimenting until I get accuracy but need a starting point for imr 4756

[diehard]

No one is rushing to give you load data, I think, because there are a lot of variables in your recipe that makes your choice of components a lot of guess work. For me, the missing variable is the weight of your ball. Using this RB calculator (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.717&v2=2876.1) and assuming you are loading pure lead, your ball probably comes out to just over 1 1/4 oz. Therefore I would--if it were me-- use load data for 1 3/8oz straight wall hulls, since load data is scant for the Win X hull and 4756. It is hard to verify any guess, but looking at Hodgdon data that puts you in the 32-35 grain range with very little wiggle room for pressure (psi is up in the 11,000 range) You should figure this out for yourself, based on the actual weight of your ball. Be really careful if you do try the starting range I suggested, remembering that lighter powder charges and heavier payloads produce more pressure. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

If you were using a Fed GM hull I'd have no qualms at all about the starting loads I listed.

[diehard]

Smoke, I have loaded the Win Universal hulls using WAA data with good results. I have also used the Win low brass super X with WAA data using light Lee slugs and traps load powders. I don't have any high brass "heavey game" hulls to look at. In checking around the web, there is a big disagreement as to whether the hull you have is the older polyformed hull or a specialty Reifinhauser-type hull (which is why I recommended Fed GM data above). There is no disagreement that this hull has a short reloading life (and I can attest to that in the low-brass versions). Cut one open to see, and compare it to the pictures in your reloading manuals. If it is a polyformed hull, Lyman 4th edition has two recipes for 1/38 oz loads that call for 29.0 and 30.0 grains of 4756 using RP12 and WAA12R wads receptively.
Here they are:

SR 4756 29.0 Gr Win209 WAA12R 1154fps 6400Lup
SR 4756 30.0 Gr Win209 Rem Rp12 1176fps 7800Lup (see page 213)

If your ball is lighter than 1 1/4 oz including all the teflon you intend to use, then the same source lists loads from 27.0- 30.0 grains with a range of 6300 to 7800 LUP...which does give you a bit so wiggle room on the pressure after all.

I guess its up to you which numbers looks best for the hull you have.

edit:
Winchester--it seems-- uses a variety of hulls for its game loads, including straight-walled Euro hulls. That's what makes this all so confusing, and explains why its hard to find real data. If you cut the hull and find a tapered hull, go back to square one and use data for Win AA compression formed hulls. BTW...WinAA hulls range from 29.5-30.0 grains for 4756 but give much higher pressures. Good luck. Hope this helps.

[Smoke73]

Thanx diehard I appreciate your comments. The hulls do appear to be a straight wall and are definitely low "brass" made of some other metal. Balls weigh in at 525 grns (1.2 oz) prior to adding Teflon. Haven't weighed with telfon yet but only takes three raps of tape to get there. Full ball & tape should not exceed 1 1/4 ounces which will be confirmed. I know little about shotshell loading and am all ears at this point. How does 4756 respond to light loading. I was thinking of starting 5 grns low and working up.

[diehard]

I can't really say, not having a chronograph, how 4756 will react to cutting a recipe. But, look at the manuals and you will see that reducing powder increases the pressure. I've read that 5% is the rule to follow (can't remember where) but I have used it--mostly to improve accuracy with a load that was "almost there" to begin with. Single base IMR powders like 4756 are noted to have higher pressure curves than double base powders..so be careful.

Good luck!

[longbow]

I have some info that should get you going. I have to emphasize that I have not used any of this info myself yet as I did not have any IMR4756. I do have some on order though.

I have been using Blue Dot which is a little faster and my understanding (I would have to check details) is that IMR4756 is generally a better powder and can be loaded to higher velocities using similar charges to Blue Dot so these seem to be reasonable charges with the round balls listed.

I have loaded 0.735" RB (585 grs.) over 38 grs. of Blue Dot using load data published for the 610 gr. Piledriver which listed up to 44 grs. of Blue Dot at pressure of 12,000 PSI. This load did not specify exact hull, primer and wads but indications were it is for straight walled hull.

My load was:

- Fiocchi low basewad hull
- Winchester 209 primer
- 38 grs. Blue Dot
- plastic gas seal
- hard card wad column
- 0.735" RB
- roll crimp

That was as much recoil as I wanted and there were no pressure signs. Based on that, the loads below seem reasonable to me. The first bunch in quotes were copied off nitroexpress.com and the second set was from a friend advising me of loads he has developed.

The copied info is for 0.690" RB so slightly lighter than your 0.717". You might want to drop back a couple grs. to start.

Based on my friend's load, you should be good at up to 38 grs. IMR4756 under the 0.715" RB.

My experience is limited to large capacity straight walled hulls. If you are using compression formed hulls with tapered walls you should check powder charges against equal weight shot loads for comparison. I included all the info below as it may help you sort out components.

Copied info:

"#5 - Fed Plastic Hunting Hull - WW209 - 40.0gr. 4756 - Win WAA12 petals removed, - 1/2" fibre wad, - .125" card wad - .690" ball Fold crimp - 1,538fps - ROLL Crimp - 10,200LUP. Note the big powder charge - reduce to 30.0gr. if using a second base wad cup for ball guidance. a .690" ball will rattle down a .730" bore and be innaccurate with this load. They are counting on a choke to straighten out the ball.

#6- same wads as #5, but FOLD crimp 'same' pressure with 1,456fps and 36.0gr. 4756.

#7 - WW Comp/formed Hull- WW209 - 37.0gr. 4756 - WAA12 petals removed - 2, .125 cards, .690" ball, ROLL crimp - 1,534fps, 10,400 LUP

#7 - same hull, primer 32.5gr. 4756 -same wads, FOLD crimp, 1,428fps, 10,100LUP. Note very minor pressure drop and 106 fps lower velocity. The only diference in the laoding is the crimp. Now, you may be able to load up to 33, 34 or 35gr.with the folded crimp and gain back the lost velocity with only a bit increased pressure but maybe not. Your gun will tell you, if you speak the langage.

The maximun allowable pressure is the same as a modern 3 dram, 1-1/8oz. trap load, or 3-1/2" 2 oz. goose load or 2 3/4" 1-1/4 oz. field load - they all develope the same pressure and thus your handloads too should be held below 11,500LUP which is normal maximum pressure of all shotshells and to what they are all loaded by factories

Depending on hull used, wad column used, projectile and crimp form, the powder charges with 4756 ranged from a low of 27.0gr. to a high of 42.0gr., and pretty much producing idential pressure with the same projectiles. The only differnce was the hull and sometimes the primer. So - one must be careful and ALWAYS start low."

From my friend:

"The brenneke style,can use a load for the same weight of any other slug. My heavy foster slugs of 615grain use 33-38Gr IMR 4756 or 59-64Grains IMR 4759."

When you say the ball will be wrapped in Teflon I am assuming Teflon pipe tape? If so I expect that Teflon wrapping will shred and cause in accuracy but that is my opinion. If you mean a single Teflon sheet inserted into the hull, that might work well. Also, Mylar or even paper might "shim" the ball diameter up to bore size so it doesn't rattle.

For best accuracy, I have found that bore size RB or RB that will fit into a shotcup have given me best results so far. I have had poor results with 0.690" ball. Your 0.717" ball is probably too large to fit any shotcup so will rattle down the bore if not centered in a donut wad, inverted gas seal, cut down shotcup or whatever. Ajay has some good examples there and good advice.

Also, if you wrap the ball up to bore diameter, it will not be choke friendly. Something like Teflon or a thin plastic may squish out but the total ball and wrapping diameter should not exceed the tightest constriction by more than about 0.003". If you are using cylinder bore then no problem.

As advised in the copied info and elsewhere, start with low end charges and work up. If you get sticky hull extraction you are seeing too high a pressure.

I hope that helps.

Longbow

[Smoke73]

Thanx longbow
have read tons of your posts here and other forums as well. When I started this quest I bought the first can of 4756 I seen because I thought might have trouble finding it but turns out it's everywhere here. Anyways I will be traveling to the coast on the weekend probably along hiway 1. If it would help I could drop a lb off for you if it wouldhelp you out I know what it is like waiting on gun stuff that never shows up. It sucks.
Been thinking this morning of using FFFg triple 777. 10% more bang than black for volume, lots of smoke, recoil tolerable and easy clean-up. FFg 777 would be better but can't find it here. It's not as fast as black though so
Maybe......

Waiting on my new to me husky 310 sxs to show up. Will be cut back just not sure how far. Baby steps to help in regulation process. Will start @ 26". Will definitely be cylinder.
Once I get it all figured I'll get a tanner mould to fit the barrels.

[longbow]

I appreciate the offer but I have two lbs. on order and lots of Blue Dot so I am good to go.

What I really need is more time! I seem to be always fixing up old vehicles, house, trailer, boat, etc. and too little time to shoot. Mind you, now my wife and I are getting practiced up for archery shoots too so that takes up what little free time I have. We both enjoy the archery though and sometimes both guns and bows get to go to the range.

I picked up an old Damascus 10 ga. side by a while ago. Unfortunately it has been badly abused and has a loose barrel pivot. It is a W & C Scott & Son with serial number from the early 1880's.

I looks to have been a beautiful gun in its day but it is in sad shape now. I have been toying with the idea of making it into a side by slug gun for BP much as you are doing.

In my opinion, the easiest ball loading is to use a ball that fits standard shotcups along with a couple of nitro card wads under the ball. My best RB groups have been with 0.662" balls patched into shotcups (they are undersize) and 0.735" balls over hard card wad column. Both do very well to at least 50 yards.

If I were ordering a new mould (which I might) it would be a two cavity 0.678". It is a convenient weight and just the right size for many shotcups.

Where are you located?

Thanks again for the offer. Have a good trip.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

I have developed some loads for a 0.735” RB in the 12ga. which should work as well for your balls considering they are slightly smaller/lighter. These are loading suggestions only. User assumes all risk and liability for their loads. Please, also, note that I do not recommend the use of the Federal “S” series wads I like to use for slug loads in Winchester tapered wall hulls, and thus I developed no load data for Winchester hulls. If you insist on loading Winchester hulls then the Cold/Fowl Weather load for the Remington one piece compression formed hulls (bottom of list) is the closest. You should be able to use that with a Winchester wad substituted for the Federal wad in the wad-column stack.

Wad Column Definitions:

~ #1 Length Wad Column (#1-LWC):
----- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
----- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + very thin 12ga. overshot card
----- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off

~ #2 Length Wad Column (#2-LWC):
----- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
----- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
----- Fed. 12S4 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card

~ #3 Length Wad Column (#3-LWC):
----- Fed. 12S0 wad, petals cut down + nesting buffer
----- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + inverted gas seal cup cut from WAA12 wad
----- Fed. 12S3 wad, petals cut off + 0.70” to 1/8” thick 12ga. nitro-card

Loads:

~ 3” 7mm thick separate plastic base-wad straight walled hulls:
----- #3-LWC
----- IMR 4756 powder
----- Fed-209A or CCI-209M primer:
----- ----- Min. = 27
----- ----- Start = 32
----- ----- Max. = 38 (Never exceed and not possible with every hull/wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)
----- Any standard 209 primer:
----- ----- Min. = 29
----- ----- Start = 34
----- ----- Max. = 40 (Never exceed and not possible with every hull/wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)

~ 3” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
----- #2-LWC or #3-LWC depending hull base-wad thickness
----- IMR 4756 powder
----- Fed-209A or CCI-209M primer:
----- ----- Min. = 29
----- ----- Start = 34
----- ----- Max. = 40 (Never exceed and not possible with every hull/wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)
----- Any standard 209 primer:
----- ----- Min. = 31
----- ----- Start = 36
----- ----- Max. = 42 (Never exceed and not possible with every hull/wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)

~ 2-3/4” Federal GM One Piece Plastic Hulls:
----- #2-LWC
----- IMR 4756 powder
----- Fed-209A or CCI-209M primer:
----- ----- Min. = 25
----- ----- Start = 29
----- ----- Max. = 33 (Never exceed and not possible with every wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)
----- Any standard 209 primer:
----- ----- Min. = 27
----- ----- Start = 31
----- ----- Max. = 35 (Never exceed and not possible with every wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)

~ 2-3/4” Paper or Fiber Base-Wad Straight Walled Hulls:
----- #1-LWC or #2-LWC depending hull base-wad thickness
----- IMR 4756 powder
----- Fed-209A or CCI-209M primer:
----- ----- Min. = 27
----- ----- Start = 31
----- ----- Max. = 35 (Never exceed and not possible with every wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)
----- Any standard 209 primer:
----- ----- Min. = 29
----- ----- Start = 33
----- ----- Max. = 37 (Never exceed and not possible with every wad/primer combination; approach with caution.)

~ 2-3/4” Remington STS, Gun Club, or Economy One Piece Plastic Hulls:
----- High Intensity Cold/Fowl Weather Load - extra tight over powder gas seal formed by forcing Federal “S”-series wad into compression formed once piece tapered Remington hull.
----- #2-LWC
----- IMR 4756 powder
----- Fed-209A primer:
----- 28gr. charge

[Smoke73]

Thanx turbo1889

Longbow I am located west of Red deer Alberta nearest small town is Caroline. I'm kinda stuck on the larger diameter balls as this is supposed to be one of my dangerous game rigs and I'm a believer in heavy bullets. Will keep playing until I find a combo that works. Just don't want to ruin a good shotgun or loose any fingers.

[Smoke73]

Well decided to go ahead and load some triple7 started with AA win hulls with win white wads for 1 1/8 oz shot trimmed to cup ball, win primers. 80 grains FFFg to start nice recoil and case head expansion of .008 which matches Win factory loads. 90 FFFg lots more gun here recoil stout and .012 case head expansion. Time to stop with this combo.

Based on above loaded up some Remington high brass hulls to see if I could push things along in this hull. With Rem primers and 1 1/4 hulls cut to cup ball. 90 grains 777 FFFg expanded head .008 so decided to try 100 grains. Recoil was something to talk about and case head expansion was about .015. Too much for me and double regulated ok with the 90 grain load. Loaded a half dozen of these for morning.

Crimp consisted of cutting off old crimp. Ball sits about half in case so gave them an elmer's crimp. Not fancy but they look cool. 777 doesn't like compression at all so another reason to "Elmer Crimp".

Don't have a clue what velocity these are going but should be comparable to a 105 grains of black at min. You can tell pressure is alot higher so they are traveling. Need to find some FFg to lower pressure and feed her some more.

I know I'm not supposed to load 777 FFFg in cartridges so don't listen to me, I'm a madman.
W

[Smoke73]

Heard a rumor that hubel the 12 guage from hell man may have info on reloader 17 in shotguns. Anybody got info. Thanx