Recoil and Neck Injuries

[Jeff H]

I have had problems handling recoil for 30+ years, due to a couple neck injuries.

With handguns, I have no problems with heavy loads, but with rifles - if I touch off one round in the wrong rifle, I will pay dearly for two to four weeks. Going through the whole pain management routine again is to be avoided if at all possible.

I had a Marlin 94 in .44 mag several years ago. The only way I could get it shoot really well was going heavier and faster. That was enough recoil - even 240s at typical mag velocities, to have me scrunched up and in terrible pain for weeks. So, I sold it.

I have heard others say that the Marlin is a bit "stiff" and I have heard people say that the Rossi is "not bad at all." Different peoples' perceptions of recoil (or what they will own up to) is very subjective.

Can anyone who has fired both tell me if there is an actual or significant difference between the two .44s in that respect?

[Hurricane]

A Rossi of the same weight and barrel length should have the same recoil as the Marlin. However, Rossi has a new 44 mag lever action with a 24" barrel and a 7 lb weight. That might be a little better. Maybe you should consider moving to a 357/38 special as the gun of choice.

[Lonegun1894]

I do not have these rifles in .44 mag, but have an idea. I do have a Winchester 94 and a marlin 336, both in .30-30, and everyone seems to agree that the Marlin is the slightly heavier rifle. Seeing as they both fire the same exact ammunition, the marlin should recoil less due to the extra weight, but the Winchester has always seemed more gentle. I have the same experience with a .54 Lyman Great Plains Rifle recoiling less than a .50 CVA Hawken. I know the Lyman has more drop in the stock, and I'm starting to think that the Winchester may also, but less pronounced. The only explanation I have ever been able to figure out is stock fit. Injuries aside, a person can handle much heavier recoil in a gun that fits them much more comfortably, than even light recoil in a gun that does not. Unfortunately, this depends on your body build and even the way you hold your rifle, so the best I can suggest is handle and shoulder different rifles, and if at all possible, shoot them, to find what you like. Personally, and I know I'm kind of an oddball with this, I like the crescent buttplates that came on muzzleloaders and some of the early leveractions for heavy recoiling guns. These are shot off the arm more than off the shoulder, and--at least for me--this set-up seems to allow me to absorb more recoil without getting jerked around as much as with a modern gun. The catch with it is you have to shoot it right, because if shot off the shoulder like we are taught today, the points on these buttplates dig into your shoulder and cause more pain. If stock fit doesn't solve this problem for you, I'd go with the above posted suggestion and go to a smaller caliber. And my Rossi in .357 is one of my favorites. The .357 is much more capable than people who haven't experimented with it would believe, and it handles anything I need done within about 150-200 yards maximum. Handles deer and smaller, and handles like a slightly overgrown .22 LR. Great caliber in a small and light-weight package that doesnt get in the way or get heavy carrying it all day. I haven't had a chance to try it on hog yet, but have no doubt that it will perform very well. And hog and deer are the most common big game animals in my area, so this little rifle covers my needs fairly well.

[NickSS]

If your neck is that sensitive I would go to a smaller caliber like 357 mag. I am bothered by recoil when it gets up above a 400 gr bullet at 1500 fps from a 45-70 marlin so most would say that I am not sensitive but lots of recoil gives me head aches after 20 rounds or so. If you are in pain go to a lesser caliber as a 44 mag in a marlin is not a very powerful kicker and anything else I can think of would give you about the same kick in that caliber.

[btroj]

I am with Nick. Go for a smaller cartridge rather than a different rifle. The Rossi vs Marlin recoil thing is a matter of rifle fit to the shooter. A rifle that really fits you well will always seem to recoil less. I don't like trying to compare recoil because it is so subjective in nature, we are stating what we feel rather than what we can actually measure.

[161]

I have a Marlin 44 and a Marlin 357. I also have bad shoulders on both sides. Love both guns but the 357 is just plain fun to shoot. I have a 1874 Sharps that beats you up on the bench but sitting or standing is just a slow push. Shooting position can be a problem also. Sometime I feel the strain in my neck after shooting from a bench but never any other position.

[Bret4207]

I am not a fan of heavy recoiling rifles. I did the whole Elmer Keith/Robert Ruark/Peter Capstick big bore thing. I have been pounded silly over the years, got a truly Olympic grade flinch out of it and have worked at overcoming that for a long time with mixed success. With that said, I have a lovely little Rossi Puma 44. I wanted a 357 but the 44 came along at the right price. With full power loads it kicks pretty good. It's not a fun gun with hot loads at all. I've added a recoil pad and that's a big help. But you will never get a light rifle (or shotgun) with a good deal of drop at the heel to be as comfortable to shoot as a heavier rifle with a straighter stock. Simple math.

OTH, take that little 92 clone Rossi and put some mild 44 Special loads in it and even the kids like shooting it. It groups well with them too.

That's all I got bud. Good luck.

[excess650]

I had a couple of Marlin 1894 44 Mags back in the late '70s and early '80s. I thought they were a might snappy with factory equivalent 240gr, and then bought a 1894c in 357 in 1982. I still have that 357 along with (3) others. A heavy jacketed projectile for the 357 is 170-180gr and recoil is still modest. I shoot only cast, and gravitate to 180gr+.

You might also consider a 336 in 30-30 or 35 and handload cast to whatever level you're comfortable with. The 336 is heavier and has a pistolgrip stock that also helps in absorbing and controlling recoil.

[timkelley]

I bought a Rossi 44 a couple years ago and it can kick with big loads. Last fall I came across a Blackhawk 44 Special and made some comfortable and accurate loads for it I really like to shoot. Well, I tried some of the 44 Special in the Rossi and have gotten rid of all my 44 Mag Brass. It is a joy to shoot and if I just have to get kicked I have another Rossi in 45.

[BABore]

Put on a Simms recoil pad and install a mercury recoil reducer in the buttstock hole where you access action bolt.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Since your pain syndrome is YOURS, do not expect the opinions and experiences of others to be very helpful. If you really want to shoot the named rifles, borrow or buy them, start with lighter loads, and shoot until you either dismiss their usefulness or find something helpful.

The very heavy loads in the lever guns in pistol calibers is a rather newer thing encouraged by many here.

Are you sure your loads of years ago were any good? Why even go to heavy loads knowing you have a recoil problem? I dare say anything you can do with heavy 44 Mag loads you can do with lighter loads, talking about whitetails.

BvT

[cajun shooter]

BaBore, Got the jump on me and he is dead on. The Mercury recoil reducers work quite well at doing the job. Your better bet is to have the hole enlarged so that the next size up in diameter will work. The more weight in that stock the less your shoulder will take. I have fired both guns and feel that both are close in the felt recoil dept. The straighter the stock the less felt recoil. A product made by SVL called the Limb saver and is sold by Wally World carries them in the fall. It is a slip on type of recoil pads but with a very good material and not like the ones of old. When I bench shoot to sight in loads I always use a long sand bag that is designed for that job. Placing it between the stock and shoulder transfers about the recoil of a 410 or less. Later

[fecmech]

Jeff-If you know what is tolerable to you plug the numbers into this calculator and then change caliber,gun weight etc for something different.
http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

[Bass Ackward]

In a way, I would consider myself lucky.

Many don't think about what tomorrow is going to bring in shooting reality. Things like arthritis, calcium deposits, and detached retinas are show stoppers once the reality of healing at older age causes the brain to prematurely put off shooting altogether.

You are thinking about today, but you will see less percentage change physically or the need to sell stuff than someone that thinks he will always be 18.

[August]

I've always heard that stocks with more drop at the heel exaggerate the perception of recoil because of the moment arm created with the bore above the heel. In other words, a gun with a lot of drop at the heel will rotate up during firing making recoil greater.

Conversely, having the axis of the bore extend through the heel of the gun makes for less axial movement and a more controllable recoil management. This is the central design principle of the AR-15 as well as competition double guns (Browning, Perazzi, Kreighoff, etc.).

So, more drop at the comb results in a greater amount of movement -- given the same amount of energy coming to the rear.

So, that would suggest a straighter comb for better recoil management.

HOWEVER, in my experience, it is more difficult to get a proper sight picture with a higher comb. One has to kind of crane their head up, over the comb of the gun -- PUTTING STRESS ON THE NECK before the shot is even fired. Whereas, a "field" gun with a lower comb (i.e. more drop at heel) gives a lot of space to get your face lined up with the bore of the gun without the comb getting in the way -- a more natural posture.

I came to all this after borrowing my buddies' Browning target Citori for a match a few years ago. I ended up in the chiropractor's office for several weeks after that with a dislocated vertebra.

So, I've found that a lower comb (more drop at the heel) on the gun is more comfortable for me and makes recoil more comfortable in spite of the increased axial movement that results from using such a set-up.

The point is, you might want to play around with comb height.

I used to own a Rossi in .44 mag and a Marlin in .44 mag. My recollection is that the Rossi had more drop at the comb than the Marlin.

This factor may turn out to be important to you too.

[405]

One magazine full dose of high pressure-high velocity 45-70 a lot of years ago in a Marlin guide gun convinced me that was adequately stupid :veryconfu and actually much worse than well designed bolt guns shooting full house 458 Win Mag, 375 HH or 416 Rem.

I don't think there will be much difference among any of the small carbines as to recoil from a certain caliber/cartridge/load. If you're stuck on 44 cal then, as has been suggested, load to 44 Special specs- very simple. Otherwise drop down to maybe 357.

[Hurricane]

There are good options if you use the rifle you already have. Stop shooting full power loads. Reload or find someone who will do it for you. Use light bullets, weight of the bullet has a huge effect on recoil. Get or cast lead bullets in the 180 to 200 grain range. Do not shoot bullets over 240 grains. Use light powder charges for a velocity range for 1200 to 1400 fps. You will have a mild load that is fully capable to use to hunt deer. 1200 fps is light for a rifle but has been taking deer for decades using from handgun. Load to a comfortable recoil level. The power will be there. My old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has 44 mag (rifle) for 180 grain bullet as 8.0 Unique for 1185 fps and 13.5 Unique for 1770 fps. For 205 grain bullet it has 8.0 Unique for 1207 fps and 13.5 Unique for 1659 fps. Try 10 grains of Unique, it seems to be a good light load for just about everything.

[Artful]

Well have the 44 Marlin and don't consider recoil bad - but then again was in a slow speed fender bender and now having neck trouble and haven't tried any rifle's since the accident.

But I have a 357 Rossi and I know that is more noise than recoil sort of an overgrown 22LR.

I also know I have fired 30'06 in many rifles and by far the worst recoiler was a Howa built S&W (sort of like going to the dentist - it tried to remove you teeth I swear) so stock design can have a lot to do with it. The other think is I have a fair number of suppressed weapons that eliminate a lot of noise by eliminating a lot of gas which also eliminates a lot of recoil -

might consider something set up like this if you have to have a 44.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/65fstbk/utf-8BSU1BRzAyODQuanBn.jpg

[Bret4207]

August makes a good point about gun fit. We don't fit the guns to ourselves anymore, we accomidate the guns as best we can. Such is life.

The worst kicking rifle I ever shot was a Remington 700 in 308 with a "custom stock". The guy that owned it had me sight it for him each fall (yeah, I know, but he was paying cash money. Who am I to argue?) with his 180 gr handloads. That rifle was just MISERABLE to shoot. I think I did 2 shots before I went and got the 25 lbs bag of shot to put between me and it. That was just the worst designed stock for me that there ever was. That's got to be what it was, it's the only explanation I can think of.

The owner never shot that gun that I know of. He was one of those guys that lounged around deer camp till 10 am or so, wandered through the woods till 2:30 pm and was firmly ensconced in a comfy chair by the start of cocktail hour, which was about 3PM for him. I never saw him do a lick of work or wash a dish, much less cook, but he was invited year after year. Got me!

[Rafe Covington]

Have you considered shooting something like a 1873 in 44-40, not much recoil and will work just as well as the 44 Mag for hunting. Not into rifle recoil myself, been using 38-40 and 44-40 in '73's for a couple of years. JMHO

Rafe:redneck:

[bearcove]

Read most but skipped some, Try filling that hole in the stock with lead shot. Cheaper than recoil reducers. Need more weight drill some holes. Its easy to remove when you want to go for a walk in the woods.

[Jeff H]

I JUST got a chance to get back and read some of this and HAVE to make at least one comment now, before I finish reading it all - THANK YOU for chiming in, everyone.

I will get back to reading the posts now - just wanted to stop and acknowledge the effort everyone has made to help a fella out.

Thanks.

Jeff

[KCSO]

I have a similar problem due to shoulder injuries. I shoot a Rossi 44 mag 24" barrel rifle and as long as I stay below 1700 fps or so I can get by. My current load is 19 grains of H 110 and a 240 cast bullet. If your rifle likes it 20 grains of 4227 is also good. I realy enjoy shooting 6.0 of Trail Boss and it is accurate enough for plinking at 100 yards. I was shooting a Marlin in 45 Colt with loads in the same range and I couln't say that the recoil was any different.

[Artful]

The owner never shot that gun that I know of. He was one of those guys that lounged around deer camp till 10 am or so, wandered through the woods till 2:30 pm and was firmly ensconced in a comfy chair by the start of cocktail hour, which was about 3PM for him. I never saw him do a lick of work or wash a dish, much less cook, but he was invited year after year. Got me!

What did he own the motorhome or have the traveling wet bar - there's more to this story your not telling for him to get invited every year. :p

[Bret4207]

He was the camps owners bud. I dunno any more than that. I was friends with the camp owners son. Maybe this guy saved the camp owners life or something? Maybe he owed him money? Got me. The guy was real dull fellow from what I could see. I just took his money and left it at that.

You did tickle a memory though- I was on my way out of camp in my very sleek and sophisticated 68 Chevelle wagon with the lime green brushed on paint job. A real chick magnet that car. Anyway, I lost a fan belt not 100 yards out onto the highway and there I was, broke down and 40 miles from the nearest parts store or phone. That pipe sucking, Manhattan drinking 308 owner came out the camp road and drove right by me without so much as slowing down despite my attempts to flag him over. That was the last time I ever saw him. Probably a good thing too since I had to sit there for 5 or 6 hours till a log truck came by and gave me a ride. I used to have a temper...

[northmn]

As one who has built muzzle loaders fo myself and others I can only say that you need to use less powerful loads. I can fit a stock that alleviates pain and bruising to the shoulder and cheek, but the rocking sensation that is hurting your neck is a function of wieght and recoil. Putting weight in the gun would help. Consider your uses and dtermine if you need that much gun. Today we have a tendency to want more than is needed.

DP

[Jeff H]

OK, here goes.
I will try to answer and address each - some responses are for multiple suggestions.

First and foremost, THANK YOU for the input and insight!

Next, if you have not figured it out, Yes - I DO want to have my cake and eat it too. Usually I get one or the other, rarely both, but one won't know if one does not ask or try.

I DO have a .357 Rossi, so anyone who suggested that, you are spot on. Yes, it is a wonderful piece that is wonderfully fun to shoot and is a really neat overgrown .22 that packs a lot more wallop than one with my light loads - and it shoots those light loads very well. Thanks to the extreme generosity of Fecmech, I found that the LEE 120 TC (a 9mm bullet) feeds like oiled snot and is very accurate to 40 yards (so far).

The Rossi .357 got me to thinking about another .44 because I can't get the 358429 to feed (tried all lengths and crimps and combinations thereof) and the 200s I tried do not stabilize. I would LIKE to have at least one "heavy" for longer shots or for deer-sized game, even though it will be on a pretty steady diet of those 120 TCs for general use including, but not limited to goofing off.

Stock design? Now, that was one thing I was hoping to hear about and I did hear some insightful input. I was also hoping someone would say that the Rossi feels better because of some specific difference, but I am hearing "maybe." I will check out that recoil calculator too and see if I can find some comparison betwen the stoked200 grainers in the .357 and a more sane 240/250 grain load in the .44. Who knows, maybe it will be close. I know the 200s in the .357 were barely noticable, in fact, it was the first time I even thought about recoil using the .357 and even that was sort of like "hey, I felt the rifle move!" Every other load went completely unnoticed.

"Buy/borrow one and find out...." As much as that makes sense, "buy" is not an option right now. I know you are right, but I had to sell stuff just to buy the .357 and am out of stuff to sell except the .357. See the dilemma there? "Borrow" is another non-option because I live in a somewhat remote area and as for the shooters I come into contact with - they have everything BUT levers, let alone a Rossi of any kind. Otherwise, I would take that perfectly sound advice.

"Add lead, mercury, recoil pad,......." You are absolutely right - these things would help. Of these suggestions, I would definitely consider a recoil pad, in fact, I get nervous standing the Rossi in the corner on that slick steel butt plate anyway. On the other hand, as far as adding weight, I like her just the way she is. Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for a dump truck that handles like a sportscar and gets 40 mpg, rather I need something that is in-between but favors the handling and the mileage aspects. I know there will be compromises, but I don't need dump truck sized LOADS either (like 310 LEEs at 1600 fps). If I can shoot light loads accurately and still be able to send a sensible 240, 250, 265 down-range at deer-killing velocities, I will be happy. I figure if a 250 at 1200 out of a Super Blackhawk will kill a deer, the same thing out of a rifle will too.

Loads,........ I am seeing some of the kinds of loads that I shoot. This is encouraging. I have shot a LOT of heavy .44 mags, but I have shot a lot MORE 240/250 SWCs over 10 grains of Unique than anything else. It's plenty. The trouble I had with the Marlin was that such loads did not want to shoot well through it at all. Through experimentation, I learned that the hottest/heaviest loads I used occasionally in my Supers would shoot REALLY well in the Marlin. While those loads were easy to handle in the single action revolvers, they hurt in the heavier rifle. "Heavier," in the rifle, didn't do what I thought it would for me.

If others are seeing good results shooting these milder loads from the .44, I think my question has been answered. I am not seeing this yet in the .357, but time will tell.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Jeff H]

As one who has built muzzle loaders fo myself and others I can only say that you need to use less powerful loads. I can fit a stock that alleviates pain and bruising to the shoulder and cheek, but the rocking sensation that is hurting your neck is a function of wieght and recoil. Putting weight in the gun would help. Consider your uses and dtermine if you need that much gun. Today we have a tendency to want more than is needed.

DP

Thanks, DP.
Missed you on my long response.

That was really the problem I had with the Marlin - that I had to use hot loads before it started shooting well.

It's not that I wanted to use those loads, it's that the loads I wanted to use shot 3+" groups at 25 yards. At anything beyond that, I had trouble keeping them on a 3' by 6' log that was my backstop.

I could make well-centered hits on a 2-liter pop bottle full of water at 60 and 70 yards off-hand with the revolvers, so 3+" with a rifle off the bench at 25 was tough to swallow. I could improve that only by turning up the heat and the more I turned it up, the tighter it shot and the more it hurt.

[Doc Highwall]

I look at it two ways, add weight and carry a heavier gun or get a 357mag with 180gr bullets. I like the 357mag idea as there are a good choice of bullet for it. Take a look at the new Ranch Dog 175gr that he is almost done with.

[Jeff H]

I look at it two ways, add weight and carry a heavier gun or get a 357mag with 180gr bullets. I like the 357mag idea as there are a good choice of bullet for it. Take a look at the new Ranch Dog 175gr that he is almost done with.

That makes perfect sens, BUT it started out partially as a move to reduce weight AND it started out exactly as your second suggestion.

The obvious choice was the .357 with heavy bullets and that's what I bought. The trouble is that this .357 does not seem to care as much for the idea as I did. It does not seem to care much for heavies in terms of cycling and accuracy.

I have a several RDO molds and am waiting for the 175 to become available, however, if it feeds no better than the ones I have tried and shoots no better than the ones I have tried (in MY rifle), I certainly don't want to keep throwing money at my overgrown .22.

This is what propagated the idea of going back to a .44, IF there was any truth to the idea that the Rossi somehow made the recoil more tolerable. One way that the Rossi might make recoil more manageable is that it would shoot "sub mag-level" loads accurately.

It appears that many have found this to be possible, so the .357 may end up being replaced with a .44. MAY be replaced. If its preferences are so particular that I have to buy half a dozen molds to find one load that works, I am better off with the .44 (for which I have molds, brass, more experience, etc.) and my finite supply of lead will just become a little smaller a little quicker.

Balance is the key word and I am considering whether I have in my hands the right balance or if I woiuld be better served by the .44.

[Artful]

I could make well-centered hits on a 2-liter pop bottle full of water at 60 and 70 yards off-hand with the revolvers, so 3+" with a rifle off the bench at 25 was tough to swallow. I could improve that only by turning up the heat and the more I turned it up, the tighter it shot and the more it hurt.

You know my 44 Marlin like's gaschecked bullets over 10.5 grn Unique the RCBS KT style - have you tried a gas checked bullet - and yes I know it doesn't need it but it likes it. :-?

[Bass Ackward]

I think that you are a little off on your thinking.

If you have a fixed twist of 30, the largest bore diameter will have the most load flexibility meaning freedom to launch heavier bullets at a lower velocity. The smallest bore will have the most trouble with heavier slugs (longer requiring more twist and more velocity).

So you should be considering the 45 Colt in Rossi if you want the most flexibility.

[Jeff H]

You know my 44 Marlin like's gaschecked bullets over 10.5 grn Unique the RCBS KT style - have you tried a gas checked bullet - and yes I know it doesn't need it but it likes it. :-?

Now that you mention it, I did, in fact. I used the 429215 in it specifically, but I am trying to think of whether I used any heavier ones with a 'check. Probably not though because I don't use them unless I have to and maybe in that case I would have had to.

Hmmmmm. Now you have me thinking.

I do remember that even jacketed stuff was pathetic at lower velocities, but they were accurate when pushed hard.

[Jeff H]

.......So you should be considering the 45 Colt in Rossi if you want the most flexibility.

You are probably right. No, you are definitely right. I do love the .45 Colt too, but in my down-sizing effort over the past few years, I cut the old Colt from the list. I "standardized" on the .44 Special because I can use the same brass, dies, molds for everything from a 3" Bulldog to a Flat Top .44 Special.

My last .45 Colt and a converted Old Model Black Hawk (.44 Special) were my last Old Models and I let those go in deference to the New Model (finally gave in) when the Flat Top .44 Special came out. My Dad had given me the converted OM BH as a gift so I gave it back to him as a gift when I got my new one.

I suppose if the Bulldog were available in .45 Colt, I might well have standardized on the .45 Colt.

[Doc Highwall]

Jeff, what alloy are you using and what size are you sizing your bullets too and the size of your expander? Did you slug your barrel and if you did what did it measure?

[felix]

The newest Winchesters are 24 or 26 twist, forget which, for the 44 and 45 pistol cases. Anyway, the 315 LFN types are good for 150 yards minimum at full muzzle velocity and, not tested, for reasonable pop gun loads at reasonable distances. Recoil easily matches a cowboy 45-70, so keep heavy loads reasonable. Use RL7 or WW680 to the bottom of the heavies. ... felix

[robertbank]

HI Jeff

I missed this thread when I posted yesterday on the results of my first attempt at loading for my Rossi .44magnum. For those who haven't experienced a heavy loaded .44mag in the Rossi, well lte me tell you for me it was painful. 22 gr of 4227 was and is a load I'll carry in the bush for Bear protection but the load isn't going to be a load I'll shoot a lot.

The good thing is a downloaded to 20 gr of IMR 4227 and then loaded some 9 gr of Unique under teh 250 gr boolit and shootng became wuite pleasant.

Jeff I like both my rifles. If you have a bad neck then I would still stick to the .357mag. Heck no deer on this planet is going very far with a 150 - 160 gr boolit in their lungs. I have been getting better accuracy shooting my 358429 boolit of late out of my Rossi so I haven't given up on the boolit weight, just find teh lighter boolits do seem to go where I want them to more often.

Take Care
ps Bret you did warn me.:takinWiz:

Bob

[Jeff H]

HI Jeff

I missed this thread when I posted yesterday on the results of my first attempt at loading for my Rossi .44magnum. ....................

.........I have been getting better accuracy shooting my 358429 boolit of late out of my Rossi so I haven't given up on the boolit weight, just find teh lighter boolits do seem to go where I want them to more often..................Bob

I was watchin'.:wink:
I even posted a comment or two, and thank you for sharing the information.

I still want the 358429 to work. The Rossi is on the operating table right now for a spring ectomy (driving ne NUTS!) and some smoothing here and there to see if they will let the rim go from the carriers a tad sooner so the angle they go into the chamber at can be reduced.

[northmn]

Lots of deer have been killed by a 44-40 with its 200 grain bullet at 1300. There is no law that says the 44 mag cannot be used with lighter bullets. Heavy bullets kick more, lighter ones a lot less. A 200 grain or so bullet loaded out of a 44 at a reasonable velocity of say 1600 would be more than adequate for a deer at closer range and loaded at lower velocities would be more pleasant. I have found that the 158 semi wadcutter works very well in my 357 and would also work on deer. A closer range, which that type of rifle is best used, the larger bore of the 44 may give a slight advantage. Maybe the lighter bullets would shoot better also? I kow of an individual that has shot more than one deer with a 357 handgun and 140 grain bullets. Most 44 loads would exceed that.

DP

[Jeff H]

Jeff, what alloy are you using and what size are you sizing your bullets too and the size of your expander? Did you slug your barrel and if you did what did it measure?

Doc, Are you asking about the .357 or the .44?

The .357 slugs at .355" and .358" conventionally lubed bullets shoot very well - the light ones anyway. The 200 grainers I shot that were unstable wer commercial cast truncated cones, .358 diameter and stepping along rather quickly, although I did not chronograph them.

The bullet I WANT to use, and may even shoot well, won't cycle from the carrier to the chamber. If that one or the RDO 175 works through the action and is accurate at 100 yards, I will have what I want, as the light bullets shoot very well at closer ranges and lower velocities.

If you are asking about the Marlin .44, that one is long since gone. I remember the groove diameter was "big" compared to what I was used to in my handguns, but it was easily dealt with using unsized bullets. No leading and accurate if pushed hard. H110 and 2400 were my "slow" powders that got me there. Lighter bullets didn't seem to help in either cast or jacketed. I had a hot 200 grain jacketed load that made one ragged hole at 30 yards with my Bisley SBH, but was paper-plate sized at 50 through the Marlin. I wrote that one off as an anomoly.

If you are asking about the Rossi .44, I don't have that one yet. YET. I am not really prejudiced against the smaller bores, but there are many things that attract me to the .44.

Any more, my "alloy" is straight wheel weights, air cooled. I used to temper and add tin, but have not needed to do that for anything I am shooting these days. I honestly don't remember what all I tried in the Marlin back when I had it, but then I had more time to mess with tempering and different mixtures in my melt. Accoriding to the SAECO hardness tester, I was getting some of it as hard as the commercial cast, but finally realized that it was as much of a problem as a solution in some cases.

[Jeff H]

The newest Winchesters are 24 or 26 twist, forget which, for the 44 and 45 pistol cases. Anyway, the 315 LFN types are good for 150 yards minimum at full muzzle velocity and, not tested, for reasonable pop gun loads at reasonable distances. Recoil easily matches a cowboy 45-70, so keep heavy loads reasonable. Use RL7 or WW680 to the bottom of the heavies. ... felix

Thanks, Felix.
If you are refering to the new Winchesters with the $1k price tag, that excludes me and my pathetic budget. As for "matching the .45-70 in recoil," THANK YOU for the warning.:smile: I plan to stay well away from those loads.

If I can get either to be a "popgun" for "yardwork," AND have at least on really good deer load, I will be happy. I know that 200 and 215 grain slugs will do that, but my .44 Specials are usually fed 240s to 265s and I have stuff for that.

[rintinglen]

I have had much better luck in my Rossi with the 358-156 than the 358-429. Crimped in the upper groove over 15.7 grains of H-110, It shoots nice round 2 inch 50 yard groups as long as these aging eyes hold out. Why is it that by the time we get to where we can finally afford neat things to play with, we are so broken down, we can't enjoy them? Anyways, such a load won't trouble you too much, and will kill any deer, or at least any whitetail that you are likely to find.

[Jeff H]

I have had much better luck in my Rossi with the 358-156 than the 358-429. Crimped in the upper groove over 15.7 grains of H-110, It shoots nice round 2 inch 50 yard groups as long as these aging eyes hold out. Why is it that by the time we get to where we can finally afford neat things to play with, we are so broken down, we can't enjoy them? Anyways, such a load won't trouble you too much, and will kill any deer, or at least any whitetail that you are likely to find.

[smilie=l:Well, the "broken down" part started at the ripe old age of 18.[smilie=l:
As for the "broke" part, I went backwards when I left industry and took up teaching, so I guess I am responsible for both catching up with me at once.[smilie=l:

I could live with the '156 but what I see in the catalog does not look like the one I grew up with. I will look again.

I may be able to get the 429 to feed now, as I tore the Rossi apart yesterday to replace the ejector spring and ended up fixing the extractor, firing pin and safety retaining pins, main spring,..... I will share later what all was truly WRONG with this rifle - not just the normal or expected smoothing and spring replacement. I believe I got in on a surge of Rossis that were pushed through the factory at break-neck speed and the quality of workmanship inside was horrendous.

After I put it back together, it would cycle a few dummies smoothly which up until that point would simply NOT go. I don't have any dummies with the '429 crimped on the front band, so I have to make a couple more. The ejector spring I used is a bit light (7/32" x .020") but I had had my fill of that extractor and ejector and needed to so SOMETHING. It will now not feed one of the 125s I was using, but that's OK, I don't have that mold and the LEE 120 gr TCs for the 9mm cycle incredibly well and shoot so too. Now, to get at least one heavier slug to work.

I think the grooves in the cartridge guides need some attention too, but I only polished them a little. Not having another older one to compare them to, I want to exhaust all other possible causes before doing any more than that to them.

To give you and idea of how bad it was internally, someone had crudely and hurriedly clearance ground the bottom of the hammer strut yoke (for whatever reason) and got into the first four coils so badly that the spring bent at the fourth coil and I was able to simply bend it back and forth and break it off before dressing it flat. Made the decision of whether or not to remove coils for me.

I have a long list to share but should be getting this weeks lessons ready so I will share the rest later but look any currently new Rossi over well before buying it.

[felix]

The new Winchester lever guns I am talking about above were made in the USA five or more years before the offloading to someone else making the guns. I bought mine around that time for about 325 delivered, and so did Beagle. His was a 44, I think, and mine was a 45. ... felix

[Jeff H]

The new Winchester lever guns I am talking about above were made in the USA five or more years before the offloading to someone else making the guns. I bought mine around that time for about 325 delivered, and so did Beagle. His was a 44, I think, and mine was a 45. ... felix

Thanks, Felix. I will keep an eye out and my options open. I do believe they are going for a bit more these days, but once in a while I do something good and right and then along comes an unexpected deal.

[Doc Highwall]

Jeff H, you said that the 357 slugged at .358" and you are sizing at .358" I think you would be better off if the bullet was sized at .359" to .360" for a heaver load. What is the size of your expander, the reason I ask is with your barrel slugging at .358" and your bullets sized at .358" an expander too small along with a heavy crimp could be making your bullet size a ragged borderline to seal the bore without leading. I would try a .360" bullet and a .359" expander size.

[Jeff H]

[QUOTE=Doc Highwall;1231245]Jeff H, you said that the 357 slugged at .358" and you are sizing at .358".........QUOTE]

Actually, I just didn't say it very well....
"The .357 slugs at .355" and .358" conventionally lubed bullets shoot very well..."

It really does slug at .355" BUT .358" bullets work well......

I have not shot any of the '429s to speed yet, as I have not managed to get the gun to cycle them. No sense in loading up a bunch of something I will have to pull down is all.

The heavier slugs I shot were hard commercial cast 200 TCs and they were starting to tumble by the time they hit 25 yards. Not sideways yet, but on their way.

Since I cleaned it up a little more things will feed, but not the '429. I think the little cut on the carrier that forces the rim up when it gets to the cuts in the guides needs polished and..... I hate this part - the little "feed ramp" at the breech is sharp-edged and is what the square edge of the front driving band is hanging up on. If there was a way to get the cartridge to tip up just a fuzz more, it wouild make it. Don't want to go messing with the part of the chamber that is already agape.

I suppose easing that edge isn't going to support a case any less than it is now as long as I don't remove anything forward of where it stops now. No telling what it should look like with the nastiness I found inside the action.

[fecmech]

Jeff--Here is a picture of each of my Rossi chambers which both feed just fine. I don't know if it will help but sometimes it helps to look at a working model.

[Jeff H]

Jeff--Here is a picture of each of my Rossi chambers which both feed just fine. I don't know if it will help but sometimes it helps to look at a working model.

Yes, it helps a LOT! Thanks.
Mine is not as neatly cut into the chamber and the surface of my carrier looks like the moon compared to yours. There is also a very different bit of geometry going on with mine, just ahead of the hole for the carrier detent ball retaining pin. There is a really steep "ramp" on the left side that looks like it is supposed to force (wedge) the rim up and the bolt pushes it forward.

Thanks, Fecmech.

[NHlever]

I haven't heard it mentioned yet so I'll bring up the idea of either a bolt action, or semi auto in .44 mag. I haven't shot a Ruger bolt gun beside a Marlin lever, but there might be some difference there because of the stock design. The Ruger plastic stock gun is very light though! I have also heard that the Rossi lever guns have a very slow for caliber twist which requires heavy loads with heavy boolits to stabliize. A Ruger bolt gun, or Winchester lever gun would allow better accuracy with modest loads than the Marlin, or Rossi probably. Another suggestion with the Marlin's, or Rossi's is to use a lighter boolit at higher velocity. Lighter boolits equal lighter recoil, and I'm sure that the Lyman 429215, 215 grain gas check semi wadcutter boolit will shoot through any deer you are likely to encounter, and might be more accurate in the slower twist guns at reasonable velocities. I'm going to try some of them in my Marlin with somewhat lighter loads than I have been using.

[Jeff H]

I haven't heard it mentioned yet so I'll bring up the idea of either a bolt action, or semi auto in .44 mag.......

LA LA LA LA LA LA LA:not listening:

Sorry, that was too good a smiley to NOT use for that one.;-)

The bolt guns are neat and I am a actually a "bolt guy" anyway, but after handling the 16" Rossi .357, I kind of like the compact ness. The bolt would be slower, unlike the auto, but either woiuld be out of my price range from what I have seen. I handled the Ruger Deerfield and it felt like a lot more gun than the Rossi.

Still, the stock on the 77-44 looks like it would be comfortable and the auto would absorb some of the recoil. Both migh eliminate some chambering problems the Rossi .357 has guven me, but may introduce others. I woiuld be open to either, I guess. I had originally hoped for a Ruger 96-44 but they rae scarce and pricey.

I know someone with a Deerfield who would let me shoot it - who let me bring it home and forget he owns it. If either of the ones you mentioned showed up at my doorstep with a too-good-to-resist price, I would definitely give one a go.