Soft Lead Hollow points or Wide Meplat for Self Defense

[4given]

I want to load up some good self defense loads for my Ruger Blackhawk Flat top 44 special.

Currently I am using a 250 gr Keith style LSWC with 7.5 grains of Unique, a tried & true all purpose 44 special load!

I would like to try and improve on this for close reange self defense. What do you guys think? Soft Lead Hollow points or Wide Meplats like LBT or full wadcutter?

Thanks!

[Bwana]

Six of one, half dozen of another. Good hits applied quickly is what counts.

[Bret4207]

HP's often open, often is not always. I like a FN, not too hard. WC are fine until you need to speedily reload, so make sure you hit your target.

I don't see a thing wrong with your current load. I'm down around 6.5 gr Unique with the same boolit and it seems to work just fine.

[bowenrd]

FWIW, If you want a good self defense load you need a good self defense firearm. I would recommend a double action revolver or semi automatic pistol for defense. A single action revolver is not the quickest for follow up shots.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ditto Bwana! if you hit anyone any place with one of those 250 gr bullets it is going to ruin their day for sure!

I wouldn't worry about the power factor, and penetration, or even expansion.

You need to shoot alot to get to the point where you can hit what you want when you want.

Hits trump power everytime. Hitting the bad guy with a .22 is more effective than missing him with a .500S&W (although you might blow his eardrums out with the big gun!)

My .02 as I leave for Frontsight tomarrow.

Shooting 500-800 rounds in a 2-4 days does wonders for your shooting skills. I personally need to do it about 3-4 times a year to keep my edge. It is a persihable skill and it goes away fast.

Practice more ! Find a load that works and shoot hell out of it.

Randy

[4given]

Thanks for the replies & I agree with what you guys have said. The single action Ruger is not my primary self defense weapon. I keep an remmy 870 12 ga with an 18 5/8 barrel loaded with 00 buck handy when at home.

I just want to experiment with something different and maybe more effective for when I carry the Ruger. And I know the 250 gr Keith style will be hard to beat.

Soo.... does a wide meplat perform more reliably in a cast bullet that the soft lead HP?

[4given]

Six of one, half dozen of another. Good hits applied quickly is what counts.

I totaly agree!!!

That's one reason I like cast boolits! More trigger pulls per $$$$$ = more practice = more hits!

[4given]

HP's often open, often is not always. I like a FN, not too hard. WC are fine until you need to speedily reload, so make sure you hit your target.

I don't see a thing wrong with your current load. I'm down around 6.5 gr Unique with the same boolit and it seems to work just fine.


I'm getting 950 fps out of my load in the ruger with a 4 5/8 bbl what are you getting with the 6.5 load?

[4given]

Ditto Bwana! if you hit anyone any place with one of those 250 gr bullets it is going to ruin their day for sure!

I wouldn't worry about the power factor, and penetration, or even expansion.

You need to shoot alot to get to the point where you can hit what you want when you want.

Hits trump power everytime. Hitting the bad guy with a .22 is more effective than missing him with a .500S&W (although you might blow his eardrums out with the big gun!)

My .02 as I leave for Frontsight tomarrow.

Shooting 500-800 rounds in a 2-4 days does wonders for your shooting skills. I personally need to do it about 3-4 times a year to keep my edge. It is a persihable skill and it goes away fast.

Practice more ! Find a load that works and shoot hell out of it.

Randy

Agreed: I have shot my current load quite a bit so that I am using right now!

[gray wolf]

950 FPS with a 250 grain bullet,
That's like a 45 ACP +P-- And then a little more.
Load up a few Thou. and go have some fun.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to swim upstream here and suggest the HP. Reason being they do expand if cast soft and at close range. There is no reason they shouldn't in flesh at close "self defense" ranges. The .38 lead SWCHP "FBI" load at 950 fps so why shouldn't a similar .44 cal bullet at the same velocity?

Suggest you cast them very soft with a 1-40 tin - lead alloy and HP with a 1/8" Forster HP tool to the depth of the nose. The HP can further be enhanced with a sharp 80 degree counter sink by hand after the loaded rounds are HP'd. I suggest the very same 7.5 gr Unique load. Speer or Hornady also makes a very nice swaged lead HP (or they used to anyway) that works very well with a muzzle velcoity of 950 fps or so. Yes if you shot a couple cylinders full you probably would get a little leading but are you going to shoot that much with a single action in a self defense senario?

Go with just the SWC and that's all you have. Go with that SWC cast soft and HP'd and you probably would get enhanced performance (the terminal type) at self defense ranges. And if the bullet doesn't expand? Well in that case you still have the SWC don't you?

Larry Gibson

[troyboy]

If you are defending your self from humans I would buy the ammo. Ya know the wives tale. Truth be told it prolly makes no difference BUT if ya have to shoot because you are in fear of your life use factory fodder. Don't give the lawyers anymore than they will already have.

[MT Gianni]

See how much sheet rock it will penetrate. If shot in a house a miss could travel into a few of your neighbors homes, or your kids rooms. You make the decision on whether or not to change it but please make it an informed decision.

[4given]

See how much sheet rock it will penetrate. If shot in a house a miss could travel into a few of your neighbors homes, or your kids rooms. You make the decision on whether or not to change it but please make it an informed decision.

That is a concern. That would only leave frangible bullets and "flying ashtrays" like a Gold Dot or something like that. Most cast bullets are going to penetrate walls I would guess.:???:

[4given]

If you are defending your self from humans I would buy the ammo. Ya know the wives tale. Truth be told it prolly makes no difference BUT if ya have to shoot because you are in fear of your life use factory fodder. Don't give the lawyers anymore than they will already have.


I have heard that as well but here in Idaho I don't think it is much of a concern. Not a lot of choices for good factory 44 special loads. It's all loaded pretty light for the CA Bulldogs and old timey stuff.

[Dale53]

I have a bit of experience with cast lead hollow points in the .44's.

My bullet of choice, for the .44 Special, is a Mihec molded Cramer style hollow point of the H&G #503 (Keith 250 gr) hollow pointed with the pentagonal pin. These WILL expand at the Skeeter load velocities (950 fps) if the bullet is cast of 20/1 lead/tin:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3330.jpg

Dale53

[4given]

I have a bit of experience with cast lead hollow points in the .44's.

My bullet of choice, for the .44 Special, is a Mihec molded Cramer style hollow point of the H&G #503 (Keith 250 gr) hollow pointed with the pentagonal pin. These WILL expand at the Skeeter load velocities (950 fps) if the bullet is cast of 20/1 lead/tin:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3330.jpg

Dale53

Those are some sweet looking boolits! Where can a fella get a hold of some of those?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Those are DEFINATELY cool looking boolits I have never seen a pentagonal HP pin.

I do instantly see how they would work however. This is one of those "DUH" moments, wiht a big "why didn't I think of that?" added.

Can you tell us a little more about the mould, like where you got it?

I bet those will open like a flower at any velocity.

4given: Those 250gr Keith Bullets you have now will go completely thru a deer at 950 fps and leave a 3/4" hole behind. And they will also go thru walls.

Randy

[Dale53]

As others have speculated, the bullets I have pictured are my home cast hollow points from a Mihec Cramer style bullet mould that I honchoed.

I designed several different hollow points for those. That way, all bases are covered from .44 Special through .44 Magnum velocities. You can adjust the degree of expansion through the choice of alloy AND the pins:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/MiHecCramerStyleBulletMould-3205.jpg

Dale53

[4given]

Nice molds!

Well I don't have any molds like that and would probably not use enough of the hollow points to justify the investment so I would have to purchase some cast hollow point boolits should decide to use them.

[Dale53]

I am a confirmed bullet caster and delight in solving my various shooting ammo "problems" with my own cast bullets.

However, if I were NOT a bullet caster, then I would seriously consider bulk packed Hornady or Speer swaged hollow point bullets. They will also do the job just fine but, of course, cost more per bullet...

http://www.hornady.com/store/44-Cal-.430-240-gr-SWC-HP/

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=224

Dale53

[4given]

I am a confirmed bullet caster and delight in solving my various shooting ammo "problems" with my own cast bullets.

However, if I were NOT a bullet caster, then I would seriously consider bulk packed Hornady or Speer swaged hollow point bullets. They will also do the job just fine but, of course, cost more per bullet...

http://www.hornady.com/store/44-Cal-.430-240-gr-SWC-HP/

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=224

Dale53

Thanks for the info!

[LUCKYDAWG13]

witch pin will expaned more witch would work best on deer sized game

[-06]

Going with HPs also. Even if they do not expand you have lost nothing. Am going to experiment with making a spring loaded gauged drill bit to HP round nose boolits. That way I can sit the "cap" onto the boolit and it will self center. Then just press down to get the hole to prescribed depth. Hope it works and if so will post pics.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dale: is that an Accurate Mould? Tom does nice work, and that is a complement coming from Buchanan Precision Machine.

I had never seen a pin arraingement like that before. All the ones I have seen were in the end of the bullet and only on single cavity moulds.

Is that your design or does Accrate moulds routinely produce that configuration of nose pins.?

Very nice looking work, and it is obvious that it makes perfect Boolits.

Randy

[GLynn41]

I have a .41 Mihia mold -- they are great-- you can cast devastor style --penta and sold meplats with the same mold-- the bullets weigh from 208 to 225 gr/// GBs are also great-- at the weight you are talking about I would think that the .430 bullet will give a lot of penetration- which can be a concern -- getting the bullets to expand is not-- I also have .41 keith mold -- 410459 which buckshot hp'd for me-- yes they will expand and they also dig deep -- I have so far killed one deer with the Mihia mold and it went just behind the right leg and stopped in the left ham-- 2/3s of the length of the deer---- I am with the others if they expand good if that should be ok too but they will likely dig deep either case,,

[Wayne Smith]

Easy answer - you don't have to choose. Simply load every other chamber with each. Now you have all your bases covered.

[Dale53]

The original Cramer moulds were available in the thirties. Mihec has taken the original design to the next level (or two). Moulds don't get any better than Mihec's.

He has done a variety of group buys on this forum at VERY reasonable prices from six cavity aluminum moulds, to two and four cavity brass moulds for both solid bullets and hollow points.

The Cramer style moulds will enable you to turn out near perfect hollow point bullets at just slightly over the pace of normal moulds. As an example, I can run 21# of finished .44 hollow points in about an hour and a half with Mihec's two cavity mould. That is awesome production for a hollow point. I also have single cavity Lyman hollow point moulds. The Lyman's do a good job but are slow and it is a bit of a trick to keep the pin hot for good fillout. The Mihec pins never leave the mould so stay hot.

The Cramer style moulds DO require a bit more physical effort to manipulate at speed but I am approaching 76 years old (by NO MEANS a superman) and have no problem with them. When it comes to hollow point moulds, the Mihec's are a revolution in production of match quality hollow points.

Dale53

[VenomBallistics]

my choice is my custom 226 grain SWC HP. Theres no "sometimes" about its expansion and it has done so as low as 500 FPS.

[fredj338]

If you are handloading SD ammo anyway, a soft LHP all day every day. For the same reason one shoots JHP, more tissue damage & sooner end to the fight. Some like these are what I carry in my 44mag snub or 45colt when I transition from trail to town. Under 900fps, large/deep HP work better. Over 900fps, shallow cup points give better results. The heavy 44/45 slugs are going all the way thru most human adversaries.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

[VenomBallistics]

If you are handloading SD ammo anyway, a soft LHP all day every day. For the same reason one shoots JHP, more tissue damage & sooner end to the fight. Some like these are what I carry in my 44mag snub or 45colt when I transition from trail to town. Under 900fps, large/deep HP work better. Over 900fps, shallow cup points give better results. The heavy 44/45 slugs are going all the way thru most human adversaries.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

some of these look an awful lot like some of my past work :wink:

[4given]

Easy answer - you don't have to choose. Simply load every other chamber with each. Now you have all your bases covered.

It's good to have choices! :mrgreen:

[4given]

Those mushroomed nicely! What media did you shoot them into?

[Ohio Rusty]

I personally like hollowpoints. Just my personal preference. I want the boolit to opem like an ashcan and dump as much energy into the criminal as it can.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[7br]

Soo.... does a wide meplat perform more reliably in a cast bullet that the soft lead HP?

How about a soft lead bullet with a wide meplat? Have you ever recovered a round ball that hit a deer? Flattens out to pretty well. The IHMSA news had an article about using extremely soft boolits for hunting. The premise was that the number of shots fired during a hunting trip would not foul the barrel enough to worry about. Practice with hard boolits, function test with soft boolits.

Just some food for thought.

[fredj338]

Those mushroomed nicely! What media did you shoot them into?

I use wetpack; phone books or newsprint soaked for about 8hr or until saturated. You'll know as they won;t take anymore water. Wetpack has given me very repeatable results, comperable to j-bullets I have recovered from game. I see no reason to think it would be diff w/ LHP. With the mass of a 44/45cal bulelts, any solid one is going thru it's soft target. A 240-270grLHP is still probably going all the way thru, they do on deer I have taken with them, safer bet for a SD round IMO & the hole is going to be a lot bigger in & out.

[4given]

thanks for the reply. The wetpack should yeild good data.

I guess I'll start looking for some good soft HP boolits. I don't need a lot of 'em so I probably won't invest in a mold. Maybe a forum member would be willing to part with a handful or two........;-)

[fredj338]

thanks for the reply. The wetpack should yeild good data.

I guess I'll start looking for some good soft HP boolits. I don't need a lot of 'em so I probably won't invest in a mold. Maybe a forum member would be willing to part with a handful or two........;-)
Send me your address & I'll Karma you some to play with w/ two diff HP.

[4given]

Send me your address & I'll Karma you some to play with w/ two diff HP.


SWEET!!:smile:

I sent you a PM