unique vs universal clays

[4given]

Anybody sucessfully duplicated the classic 44 special load of 7.5 grains Unique & a 250 grain Keith style using a cleaner burning powder such as Universal Clays?

The 44 special loads listed for Unique and Universal Clays are both well under 900 FPS.

Thanks for any help.

[Rocky Raab]

In that range, you can just about use the same charge weights. At most, the two are only a few tenths apart. Universal is perhaps just a wee bit faster. Drop a half grain and try a few; you won't have to juggle much.

But as we've agreed, "cleaner burning" is pretty much pointless except as a sales claim.

[DragoonDrake]

I have noticed the same thing as rocky. I have used the same charge weights for both and have not noticed any change in poi and I do think universal is a little cleaner.

[excess650]

While I've not yet tried what you're suggesting, I may do something similar in 44 mag cases. I happen to like Universal for its uniform metering through a measure, and have used it in very light rifle loads.

A big difference between the two powders is that Unique is much bulkier.

Back when I was shooting a 45acp indoors for league competition, I abandonned Bullseye and WW231 because they didn't burn as cleanly as some others in light loads. Later, when shooting IPSC, I tried the "clean burning, low recoil" powders in my "major" 45 loads. I did notice a difference in the recoil impusle and was surprised because I thought it just a marketing ploy.

[4given]

In that range, you can just about use the same charge weights. At most, the two are only a few tenths apart. Universal is perhaps just a wee bit faster. Drop a half grain and try a few; you won't have to juggle much.

But as we've agreed, "cleaner burning" is pretty much pointless except as a sales claim.

So your saying that in your experiance Universal Clays does not burn cleaner?

[KYCaster]

Since I'm the guy who keeps saying that Universal is a clean burning alternative to Unique, I feel compelled to comment.

What I have said is, "Universal can be used as a direct substitute for Unique in MANY applications. Universal is best used in mid range loads and can be erratic when approaching the upper end of its useful pressure range."

One of the great things about Unique is its predictability. For every incremental increase in powder charge, you can count on seeing a predictable increase in pressure and velocity....right up to the point where you run out of case capacity or something fails.

I can't say the same about Universal. On a couple of occasions, I've seen velocity flatten out as charges are increased and then take a huge jump out of proportion to the increase in powder charge. I don't intend to explore this phenomenon any further, being content to stay below Hodgdon's published max when using Universal.

Now, having said that....Hodgdon's max charge of Universal with a 240 LSWC (they don't list a 250) is 5.6 gr. Substituting Universal grain for grain with Elmer's 7.5 gr. Unique load in 44 Spl. results in a charge 33.9% OVER MAXIMUM!! :shock:

Not some place I want to go.

In comparison, 7.5 of Unique is 8.6% above Alliant's max of 6.9 gr. I suppose most of us wouldn't call that a gross over load, especially considering that published data tends to be fairly conservative.

So, if I had the irresistible urge to load 255 gr bullets @1000 fps in 44 Spl cases with Universal, I'd start with a reliable chronograph and work up from Hodgdon's data extremely carefully. If I saw anything the least bit out of the ordinary, I'd stop right there, back off to a lower charge and be content with that.

This is one of those situations where I think Unique is the better choice....or better yet, 2400. You should be able to get to 1000 fps by going just 3 or 4% over Alliant's 13 gr max. (BTW, Elmer's 17.5 gr 2400 load is 34.6% above max.)

Good luck
Jerry

[35remington]

No......just that "clean burning" is the least significant characteristic of a powder, by far. (Responding to 4given).

One should not be as obsessed with "clean burning" as much as "how well does it shoot?"

If I'm shooting in any kind of competition, accuracy and ballistic consistency matter far more than any degrees of "cleanliness."

Pistol shooters, for some reason, obsess over this. Perhaps because they can't shoot too well anyway?

Cast bullet shooters, especially the rifle kind, don't give a fig about "cleanliness" as most of the slower powders favored for such use don't burn completely in pressures suitable for cast bullets, and very fine accuracy is obtained because it doesn't burn cleanly!

Stick that in one's pipe and smoke it for awhile before declaring "cleanliness" as highly desirable.

In point of fact, it is rather insignificant. The differences between Universal and Unique will not have your gun running flawlessly with Universal indefinitely while hopelessly clogging it with crud in a few rounds with Unique.

How you run the powder is as important, if not more so, than the type of powder used.

Run Universal at 8,000 psi in a 38 Special and Unique at 35,000 psi in a 9mm and see which one is "cleaner." Speaking about "cleanliness" without discussing pressure is misleading.

At equivalent pressures, most would rate Universal as "cleaner" than Unique, but compared to how the load shoots, this isn't too terribly important. You aren't trying to eat off your gun, you're trying to shoot it!

Just see if accuracy and ballistic consistency are better with Universal than Unique and forget all the worthless "clean burning" folderol. At least then your priorities will be correct. If it is not, why switch?

[mooman76]

I have done it a small amount. I wanted a cleaner burning powder and after I bought some was disappointed to find not much data for Unique. But when compairing to what data I could find, like others have stated there was only about .1 grain difference between the two.

[excess650]

Speer #13 data for 44 Spl

225gr GC 7.8 Unique for 1043fps
225gr GC 6.8 H Universal for 950fps

250gr SWC 6.9 Unique for 921fps
250gr SWC 6.5 H Universal for 880fps

These are the listed MAX loadswith a 15,500psi limit.

[Rocky Raab]

When I say "clean burning" is pointless except as a sales tool, here's what I mean:

Unburned kernels and/or ash in the barrel is meaningless because it does not seem to damage the next bullet, and is self-correcting with each shot, getting blown out each time.

So the only other aspect of "clean burning" is related to gun cleaning. About which we have two options: A person either doesn't want to clean his guns or he does want to clean them. If he is going to skip cleaning them, it doesn't matter if the gun is dirty or not. If he is going to clean them, it doesn't matter if the gun is dirty or not.

Given both of those things, the major reason to call a powder "cleaner burning" is to get you to buy it.

[btroj]

Wow Rocky, you seem to have a good handle on what advertising is all about!
And all this time I thought ad agencies were performing a public service but now you are telling me they only want me to buy a specific product?

How dare they!

[Rocky Raab]

I didn't have a 15-year career in PR for nuttin'! LOL

(One of my four careers, btw.)

[4given]

No......just that "clean burning" is the least significant characteristic of a powder, by far. (Responding to 4given).

One should not be as obsessed with "clean burning" as much as "how well does it shoot?"

If I'm shooting in any kind of competition, accuracy and ballistic consistency matter far more than any degrees of "cleanliness."

Pistol shooters, for some reason, obsess over this. Perhaps because they can't shoot too well anyway?

Cast bullet shooters, especially the rifle kind, don't give a fig about "cleanliness" as most of the slower powders favored for such use don't burn completely in pressures suitable for cast bullets, and very fine accuracy is obtained because it doesn't burn cleanly!

Stick that in one's pipe and smoke it for awhile before declaring "cleanliness" as highly desirable.

In point of fact, it is rather insignificant. The differences between Universal and Unique will not have your gun running flawlessly with Universal indefinitely while hopelessly clogging it with crud in a few rounds with Unique.

How you run the powder is as important, if not more so, than the type of powder used.

Run Universal at 8,000 psi in a 38 Special and Unique at 35,000 psi in a 9mm and see which one is "cleaner." Speaking about "cleanliness" without discussing pressure is misleading.

At equivalent pressures, most would rate Universal as "cleaner" than Unique, but compared to how the load shoots, this isn't too terribly important. You aren't trying to eat off your gun, you're trying to shoot it!

Just see if accuracy and ballistic consistency are better with Universal than Unique and forget all the worthless "clean burning" folderol. At least then your priorities will be correct. If it is not, why switch?

I understand what you are saying and I agree accuracy and performance trump "clean" However, during a long shooting session it would be nice to have things burning a little cleaner.

[4given]

When I say "clean burning" is pointless except as a sales tool, here's what I mean:

Unburned kernels and/or ash in the barrel is meaningless because it does not seem to damage the next bullet, and is self-correcting with each shot, getting blown out each time.

So the only other aspect of "clean burning" is related to gun cleaning. About which we have two options: A person either doesn't want to clean his guns or he does want to clean them. If he is going to skip cleaning them, it doesn't matter if the gun is dirty or not. If he is going to clean them, it doesn't matter if the gun is dirty or not.

Given both of those things, the major reason to call a powder "cleaner burning" is to get you to buy it.


I think you are right. Long shooting sessions with a revolver does get a bit messy however. Unburned powder & etc tend to gum up the works, your hands get black & etc.

[Shooter6br]

As in the song" You take Sally I'll take Sue ,there aint no differance between the two" Except Universal cleaner and measures alittle better.

[btroj]

With cast why would you worry about clean burning powder? I find that the lube makes a far bigger mess than the powder ever could.

[4given]

With cast why would you worry about clean burning powder? I find that the lube makes a far bigger mess than the powder ever could.

Yeah the lube is messy as well.

None of this matters much if I am going out to shoot 50 rounds or so. But I would like to be as clean as possible when I go out and shoot 100+.

Maybe I won't find what I am looking for. The Skeeter Skelton load works pretty darn good!:wink:

[mdi]

I understand what you are saying and I agree accuracy and performance trump "clean" However, during a long shooting session it would be nice to have things burning a little cleaner.
I use Unique a lot in my .38/.357 and .44 Spec/Mag. I clean all my guns after each range session. Also I keep a small towel on my shooting bench to give a quick wipe down to my guns between rounds (I usually shoot two cylinder fulls at each target when shooting indoors with targets on a cable system). If/when I go to a range 200+ rounds is normal, more if I'm trying something different. I haven't given a thought to "clean" powder vs "dirty" powder since I shot Black Powder in a revolver 23 years ago...

[Thecyberguy]

I just posed the question in another thread.
My 45 load with Bullseye is so "dirty" my fingers were black after loading the mag 3 times.

Made me ask about a "cleaner" load.
Thanks,