First time not using Lee Moulds

[MikeS]

Hi All.

I'm fairly new to casting boolits, up until tonight I've only ever used Lee 2 cavity moulds for my casting (I have 4 Lee 2 cavity moulds). Well, after hearing so many folks say how other brands of moulds are so much better, I decided to try some. I bought some moulds off of eBay, and the first 2 came in today. I got a Saeco #12 2 cavity mould with handles, and a Lyman 358477 2 cavity mould, also with handles. After cleaning up the moulds a bit, and mounting them into their respective handles, I decided to try the Saeco #12 tonight.

The guy I bought the Saeco mould from stated in his listing that the mould had some issues, one being a small chunk of mould is broken off right by the screw that is the stop for the sprue plate, and it's really no problem as it still works as it should. The second was he mentioned something about the screw that holds the sprue plate on was replaced (or maybe it was just the washer, I don't really remember), and this did turn out to be a problem, as the screw that hold the sprue plate on is also the screw that hold that half of the mould to the handles, and I couldn't get it to not turn when I moved the sprue plate! I'm thinking that there really should be a set screw to hold that screw from turning, but figured I would look at it after I was done casting with it.

I fired up my lead pot, and put some wheel weights in it, and a small handful of linotype as I had just bought 10lbs of linotype, and I was curious to see how it would work alloyed with the WWs. After everything melted down, and I skimmed off the clips, and fluxed the pot, I put my ladle into the lead, and placed the Saeco mould on top of the pot, and left both there while I smoked a cigarette (I use a cigarette as a measure of time, when I take out the dogs I do it for 2 cigarettes of time, or a quick walk is only 1 cigarette, etc.) When I finished my cigarette, I went back to the pot, and got started casting. Well, I was in for a surprise! I've heard here that when using cast iron or steel (or even brass I think) moulds that they heat up much slower than aluminium, so I expected to have quite a few rejects before I started getting good boolits, but after the first pour of which only one was a reject, I continued casting, and cast a total of 102 boolits, and out of those only 2 were rejects! But I gotta tell you, it was a PITA as I had to get a screwdriver and keep it next to the pot, so I could tighten up the sprue plate between each pour!

When I was done, and I was counting out the freshly cast boolits, I found a set screw mixed in with the boolits, and I had a clean T Shirt before I started, so there was no way it was there from before I started, so this got me looking, and sure enough, I found the hole where it goes, and it holds the sprue plate screw from turning (there's even a flat on the sprue plate screw for the set screw to hit), so now after the mould cooled down I inserted the setscrew, and now the sprue plate is nice and tight!

What really surprised me was the quality of the cast boolits. They were some of the nicest ones I've ever cast. I don't know if this is a result of the mould, or if it's just that I've gotten better at casting (a couple of days ago I cast some of the Lee clone H&G #68's and they came out really nice too).

Tomorrow I'm gonna try casting from the Lyman 358477 that I got, and see if they turn out as well as the Saeco #12's did. Does anyone know, did Lyman make more than one mould numbered 358477? I ask because when I was reading an article written by Glen E. Fryxell he mentions it several times, but says 'the original 358477' rather then just calling it the 358477. Also on my mould are the letters AV after the mould number '358477AV' does that mean anything? This might sound strange, but when looking at the Lyman mould mounted in it's handle compared to either the Saeco mould, or the Lee moulds, the Lyman is just so cute! With the mould mounted in the handles, it's only 8.5" long. From reading I understand that Lyman introduced the 358477 some time in the 50's, and I was wondering if there's any way of finding out how old my mould is? Did Lyman/Ideal always use steel for their moulds, or was there a time when they used iron? I'm also wondering if there's a way to tell how old my Saeco #12 mould is?

Sorry for rambling on, so I'll stop now. Thanks.

[Maineboy]

Congratulations, it looks like you've got a good one in that new Saeco. Hopefully your Lyman will be as good. Some moulds cast well right from the start, some need tweaking, and some will always be a disappointment. I don't own any Saeco moulds but I do have ones from Lee, Lyman and RCBS. I have good moulds in all three brands and I have problem moulds in all three as well. Adding linotype to your WW mix is a big help.
As for different versions of one mould number, that is a given. You'll very rarely find two moulds exactly the same, especially if they were made years apart. I have 3 Lyman 311 291 moulds, a single cavity, a double cavity, and a 4 banger. When you put a boolit from each mould side by side, you can see the differences. When you get out the micrometer, the differences really become obvious.

[MikeS]

I noticed from a picture in another thread that the mould said Ideal on the side, where mine says Lyman. Anyone know when they changed from using the Ideal name on moulds to just using Lyman on the moulds?

[Bret4207]

The Ideal to Lyman switch was in the late 20's/ early 30's IIRC. As for the moulds differing, each cherry is cut a little different.

[MikeS]

Were the older Ideal moulds also made out of steel, or were they made from cast iron?

[Doby45]

The difference that I found was the newer 358477s have a more rounded edge at the nose of the boolit and my old 358477 had a sharp edge at the nose of the boolit.

[oso]

Hmmm . . . Look at the end of the Saeco block for the recessed set screw that bears on the sprue plate screw. The sprue plate screw (runs down through the sprue plate on top of the block) is not the same screw as the handle screw (runs up from the bottom of the block.) Just wondering what might be going on with this mold?

[RayinNH]

Mike before the cigarette you didn't mention washing your hands. It's always a good idea to wash before ingesting anything, be it food or a smoke. Course I'm not sure which will get you first, the cigarettes or lead poisoning...Ray

[MikeS]

Mike before the cigarette you didn't mention washing your hands. It's always a good idea to wash before ingesting anything, be it food or a smoke. Course I'm not sure which will get you first, the cigarettes or lead poisoning...Ray

Or in my case, the diabetes, or the heart problems (I have a pacemaker, and enough stents in my heart so I set off any metal detector I go thru!). I didn't mention it, but I always wash my hands before doing lots of things, Between getting my hands dirty with oily stuff, or waxy stuff, or handling lead, or cleaning up after my dogs, I must wash my hands a couple of dozen times a day! I don't have any phobias about my hands like Howie Mandel does, I just like having clean hands!

[MikeS]

Hmmm . . . Look at the end of the Saeco block for the recessed set screw that bears on the sprue plate screw. The sprue plate screw (runs down through the sprue plate on top of the block) is not the same screw as the handle screw (runs up from the bottom of the block.) Just wondering what might be going on with this mold?

I don't know how other Saeco moulds work, but this one has the screws that hold the blocks to the handles both coming from the top. The other block (the one without the sprue cutter) has a screw with a slotted head that's counter sunk into the block that comes from the top down into the lower portion of the block which is threaded for the screw. The sprue cutter screw IS also the screw that holds on the block, and the screw has a flat on it for the setscrew that holds the screw from moving. I know the Lyman blocks come from the bottom upward, and have a separate screw for the sprue cutter, but not this Saeco. It's kind of strange the way the sprue cutter works, as it hinges from a different place than I'm used to (I'm used to Lee moulds, and they swing the same way as the Lyman moulds do), and when you cut the sprue, the 2 holes for the sprue move in different directions. It actually works well, and I had no problems with cutting off the sprues (not that I have with other moulds, but I expected to because of the design of the sprue cutter).

Like I said before I've never seen any other Saeco moulds, so I don't know if the newer ones work more like the Lyman moulds, or if all Saeco moulds work like this. Another thing is that the holes for the lead to pour thru on the sprue plate are really small compared to other moulds I've seen, I'd say they're half the diameter of Lyman Sprue plate holes.

[MikeS]

The difference that I found was the newer 358477s have a more rounded edge at the nose of the boolit and my old 358477 had a sharp edge at the nose of the boolit.

Ok, that makes mine a newer style, as the nose has a very rounded edge, nothing sharp about it. I cast some of them tonight, and while it seems like it took this mould longer to heat up than the Saeco, I ended up putting 15 boolits back into the pot. Having said that, back when I first started casting, I probably would have said that most of those were good enough, as I get more experience I seem to be able to make some nice looking boolits, so there's no reason to keep any that aren't 100%. So now the big question, I have about 100 of the Lee TL452-230-2R cast, tumble lubed, sized, tumble lubed again, and if I went thru them today I would probably throw about half of them, maybe more back into the pot, so should I do that, or just shoot them as is and just use them as practice ammo?

[troyboy]

Won't hurt a thing to shoot them up.;-)

[MikeS]

Your Saeco mold sorta pivots like this?


Yup, exactly like that one. And the sleeve that is the sprue plate stop has a screw in it as well. I don't know what that screw does, but I see yours doesn't have the screw (or I just can't see it in that picture). I notice your mould has the screws that go in from the bottom to hold on the handles, as I said before mine has the screws going in from the top, both the one that holds the sprue plate, and the other one as well. I'm going to try and take some pictures and see if they come out. Also, your moulds have a logo of some kind and say Saeco on the blocks themselves, mine don't, only on the sprue plate.
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[MtGun44]

Original design 358477s are 150 gr nominal, later is 158gr nominal. Slight changes in
the nose shape are just "cherry drift" which happens at Lyman over the years. You would
be shocked at some of the cavities that I have seen marked as 429421! How about a front
"driving band" that is about .025 thick, maybe less! IME, the 358477 sized to .358 in wwts
and lubed with 50/50 or LBT soft blue has been a really accurate boolit in all my different
.38 and .357 revolvers, at velocities from mild to wild. Try 5.0 gr Unique in .38 Spl for medium
hot load and 16.3 gr H110/W296 for a hot .357 Mag load that is very accurate, too. 3.0 gr of
Clays (plain old, no pre-fix) is a wonderful normal load in .38 Spl. and very clean burning.

Bill

[MikeS]

Original design 358477s are 150 gr nominal, later is 158gr nominal.

Ok, now you have me confused. the noses on mu 358477's are slightly rounded, not sharp at all, so as per the other poster I assumed they were the newer style. Now you say that the older ones were 150gr as opposed to 158gr, and mine are right around 151.5 - 152.4 so that would indicate I have an older style mould. Is it possible I have a transitional mould, 150gr with a rounded corners on the nose rather than sharp corners.

[Bret4207]

Mike, the moulds have always and are still made from the same type of iron which I believe is called Mehanite (sp). I know it "looks" like steel, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of different types of iron and steel alloys. I don't know what differentiates one from another, but if Lyman calls it iron, that's good enough for me.

On the nose- Lyman isn't exactly dead on in reproducing moulds when they cut the cherry. They vary widely even in the moulds that are "the same" across their production run. Trying to nail something as minor as a nose edge shape down can be frustrating.

Hey, you seem like a good guy. With the pacemaker, diabetes and stents maybe it's time to give up the smokes, eh? We'd like to have you around for a while.

[MikeS]

Mike, the moulds have always and are still made from the same type of iron which I believe is called Mehanite (sp). I know it "looks" like steel, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of different types of iron and steel alloys. I don't know what differentiates one from another, but if Lyman calls it iron, that's good enough for me.

On the nose- Lyman isn't exactly dead on in reproducing moulds when they cut the cherry. They vary widely even in the moulds that are "the same" across their production run. Trying to nail something as minor as a nose edge shape down can be frustrating.

Hey, you seem like a good guy. With the pacemaker, diabetes and stents maybe it's time to give up the smokes, eh? We'd like to have you around for a while.

Actually Lyman calls them steel, not iron. (Well at least that's what Midway says) I guess it really doesn't matter what version of the 3548477 I have, it casts nice boolits, fairly easily, so that's good enough for me.

As for giving up smokes, I tried that a few times, and basically even my doc says that in my case if I were to quit, it'd be too little, too late, so I figure I might as well keep smoking, I really do enjoy them, in fact I even make my own cigarettes too, that way I can use a better grade of tobacco so I can enjoy it more.

I went ahead, and cast some more of the Lee 230gr 45's, from the first mould I bought, and it sure was a PITA getting it to make nice boolits. I was using wheel weights with some linotype thrown in, and a bit of tin (about a foot of lead free solder) and these boolits came out much lighter than the ones I originally cast. The original ones were using lead I bought on eBay that was supposedly wheel weights, and the boolits cast at 234gr, but the ones I cast last night were running right around 228gr. It seems like that mould has a very small temp range where it casts good boolits, a bit too cold, and they get wrinkled, don't fill out well, etc. and just a bit hotter and they're getting major frosting, it almost seems like it cast better when I didn't know as much about casting as I do now!

[Bret4207]

Actually Lyman calls them steel, not iron. (Well at least that's what Midway says) I guess it really doesn't matter what version of the 3548477 I have, it casts nice boolits, fairly easily, so that's good enough for me. Yeah, that's Midways term

As for giving up smokes, I tried that a few times, and basically even my doc says that in my case if I were to quit, it'd be too little, too late, so I figure I might as well keep smoking, I really do enjoy them, in fact I even make my own cigarettes too, that way I can use a better grade of tobacco so I can enjoy it more. Your doctor sounds like a freakin' retard![smilie=b: Get a second opinion. Quitting may not "fix" you, but it sure won't hurt. I'm done preaching at you now.:smile:

I went ahead, and cast some more of the Lee 230gr 45's, from the first mould I bought, and it sure was a PITA getting it to make nice boolits. I was using wheel weights with some linotype thrown in, and a bit of tin (about a foot of lead free solder) and these boolits came out much lighter than the ones I originally cast. The original ones were using lead I bought on eBay that was supposedly wheel weights, and the boolits cast at 234gr, but the ones I cast last night were running right around 228gr. It seems like that mould has a very small temp range where it casts good boolits, a bit too cold, and they get wrinkled, don't fill out well, etc. and just a bit hotter and they're getting major frosting, it almost seems like it cast better when I didn't know as much about casting as I do now!

You have a relatively high tin content that may be contributing to your frosting, but the lack of fillout and wrinkles sounds like either a not so clean mould (oils) or a cool mould. Light, even frosting is okay. Sometimes you will need to get a mould nice and hot and then it cool 3-4 times before it decides to give in to your tender touch and act like it should. I've always thought that was residual oils burning out, but whatever it is it seems to be a common issue. I don't know how to put this in words so that it comes across easily, but you need to find the temp the mould wants to cast nicely at and then alter what you do to maintain that temp. Pot temp. Mould temp. 2 different animals. Pot temp is the temp that seems right to you for good flow and fluxing. Mould temp is the Holy Grail that you must seek out and find with each different mould and alloy. Different alloy- different mould temp...USUALLY. Some moulds will swallow just about any alloy at any temp and drop beautiful boolits. Others (more common IME) simply demand a particular mould temp range (+/- a certain temp) and may demand a particular pouring style, lie long skinny boolits that often do worlds better with a ladle. And even tat varies from person to person and what works for me might be a disaster for you. That's the "art" part of casting.

Keep at it, play around a bit. Record your observations. You'll see a trend develop over time that will clue you in on what works for YOU.