44-40 recommendations

[hiram]

I would like some recommendations for a 44-40 rifle. If possible, a tang sight included or the tang is drilled and tapped for a sight.

[August]

The 38-40 does everything the 44-40 does, but just a little bit better.

If you want the gun for plinking or competition, you might want to consider the Uberti '73. If you want to take the gun afield, then the Miroku '92 is your huckleberry.

Marlin made guns (model 1894) in these calibers, but they are hard to find.

Who ever thought it would be easier to get a Japanese or Italian Winchester than an American Marlin. Signs and wonders....

[hiram]

I plan to use it for my club's 50 yard matches. 20" barrel is fine.

[tcoupe24]

I have a Uberti Henry and it is a very accurate rifle, I reload all of my own ammo and use cast and I couldnt ask for more.
Tom

[9.3X62AL]

I enjoy my inherited '73 Winchester, vintage 1897. These don't safely allow for high velocity 1892 Win/1894 Marlin load levels--nor do the Uberti repros, but that's not an issue for me at all. 200 grain SAECO #446 under 13.0-14.5 grains of 2400 shoot quite well enough to make venison to 100 yards, running 1100-1225 FPS from its 19" barrel. During its service life as a ranch gun, it has made more venison than all of my Dad's and my own rifles combined--several times over.

[cajun shooter]

I own a couple of rifles in that caliber that are from different makers. I own one from Rossi in a 92 copy and another by Uberti in a 73 copy. If you are shooting the hotter faster loads that the round is very capable of doing then the 92 is the way to go. If shooting the light target and medium loads like black powder then the toggle bolt guns will work well. The 73 may be worked on to have a very short and fast stroke on the lever so it will out shoot the 92's in time but not accuracy. Both guns that I own are tit for tat when it comes to target. The Rossi 92's are tapped and drilled for tang sights from the factory. The front is metric and the rear a USA 10-32 The screws are available from Brownel's for one. The 92 looks and works well with many brands of sights just as the 73 will do after some machine work. The choice of sights may be the Marbel's brand or a higer dollar sight. For your given range that you posted the Marbel will work very well and be the cheapest. Look at Buffalo Arms for your different offerings.

[fecmech]

The newer Bras Tech Rossi octagon barreled guns are D&T'd for a tang sight. I can't speak to a 44-40 but I'm very happy with both Rossi .357 92's I bought.

[Phillip]

I have the Octagon barrel 24" Rossi in 45 Colt, and it shoots like a champ. The only complaint's with it, is the firing pin safety and the ejector spring, but both can be replaced. For the money its still a good buy, even if you opted to tune it with Stevegunz kit.

[KirkD]

Since you are using it for 50 yard matches, i would recommend getting that front sight out as far as possible. This entails that you go for a longer barrel rather than a shorter one. I would suggest 24". In my opinion, 20" will be a handicap if you are using iron sights and want cloverleafs.

[44 WCF]

I've owned 1892 recent manufacturer, a uberti 66, a Uberti 66 in Little Big Horn Commmerative, a cimarron 73, and two Marlin 94's. I still own the Marin CB with 24" barrel, the most accurate of all and the Little Big Horn commen. They were all spendid rilfes, the only dissapointment was the recent manufacture Winchester 1892. I think it was a 44 mag barrel chambered for the 44-40, I had ejection problems and only decent accuracy was with jacketed bullets so I got rid of it quick. The 66 uberti with 24" barrel was dream, just a fellow shooter offered me so much I coudn't refuse. "Samewit the cimmaron 73, wood so red and pretty a fellow shooter just had to have it, at the time for more than I paid for it new. The most accurate has been the Marlin CB. I sold the Marlin Limited before I had much experienc with it because I was offered so much I coudlnt' refuse again, a common problem when you shoot 44-40's around others. . It is a grand old caliber, I have 44 special but I separate the two as two different animals. Love them both, my other fav is the superb 38-40. YOu just have to appreciate what these two calibers were back in the day and don't forget the 45 Colt, another great old round.

[gitano]

Hello gentlemen,

I have a model 92 Rossi with 20" octagonal barrel. I am looking for 'reasonable' loads for it. I'm not particular what weight bullets and am happy with anything from 180 to 300. I cast, but would be happy with jacketed.

Here's my problem:

Load data I can find seems 'anemic' to me. I got interested in the .44-40 cartridge when bought a drilling chambered in a cartridge very similar to the .44-40, and was able to use the .44-40 instead. I was able to load that cartridge "up" to 1600-ish f/s with 300-grain cast bullets. However, when I look a reloading manuals and QuickLOAD for the .44-40, I am finding the max pressure at about 15,000 PSI. It's pretty darn tough to get even a 180 t0 exceed even 1500 f/s and stay within that pressure.

Here are my questions:

1) What pressures are generally accepted for a "modern" model 92 Rossi?
2) If you would, please suggest some starting loads for some of your 'favorite' bullets. Cast or jacketed, 180 t0 300. Your choice.

Thanks,
Paul

[59sharps]

go w/ the 1860 henry in 44-40. you can move the sight onto the receiver and it would be historicly correct. for proper placement go to the N-SSA site and ask John Holland to send you the spec sheet for the sight modification.

[cajun shooter]

The loads that you found for the 44-40 are listed that way because of the guns that are around for it are not safe with stronger loads. They have thousands of reproductions of the Winchester 1860,1866, and 1873 toggle bolt rifles in 44-40 caliber. These are fine guns to own and shoot but they were designed to shoot what was known in that time period as gunpowder. It is now referred to as Black powder and the design is for pressures in the 15,000 PSI and no more.
The 1892 is nothing more than a scaled down version of the Winchester 1886 which was a very strong action that was chambered for all the large rifle cartridges of it's time. The 92 is very capble of firing many strong cartridges such as the 454 Casul. I would not try to super charge the 44-40 case because it is a thin mouth design and not meant for super loads. The 44-40 may be loaded with smokeless powder in a 92 that will give you loads in the 1700 to 1900 FPS with a 200 grain bullet which will knock down most things that need to be shot.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I own several 44/40 rifles and like them all. I started with an 1866 clone (Uberti) for use in cowboy ac tion and upgraded to a 1873 (also a Uberti). I then picked up an original 1892, made in 1915. They are all good (the 1866 was ok, but I didn't realise it ONLY likes Winchester brass and is unreliable with anything else, D'Oh! Of course I realised this after I upgraded. I haven't really spent much time with the 92 as it only has the half mag and is no good for cowboy shooting. I will use it for BP hunting.

If you can afford it an 1873 replica is the machine. They are great rifles and are beautifully made. Someone, Cimarron I think it is turn out the brush popper, which is a shoprt oct Bbl rifle, plenty for 50 yards. I have a sportign rifle (24" Oct Bbl) because it was the only one around when I had money.

It is my most reloaded cartridge, things I have found:

Go slowly with the FLS die (the mouths are really thin, designed to seal the chamber off with BP and stop the fouling reaching the action. The downside is they bend easy. If you are anal about your brass and get all bent out of shape when you lose a case, the 44/40 is not for you, :D

Don't buy a big stock of ammo or brass until you try them. If you don't reload, Magtec ammo is fine for cowboy, but try one box first as the rims seem to be a bit thicker and it has been my experience that they cause probs in several guns.

Don't overload. The cases are weak and the toggle action is pretty ordinary as far as strength goes. As far as slick operating goes it is the best without question. I have never tried to stretch the cartridge, but I have an advantage, I had a lot of mates who were bedazzled by the fact that the case is bigger than a 44Mag, so they thought that they were good to go,,,,,,,,,,,,WRONG! Their stupidity tempered my approach to this fine old cartridge when I finally got one.

If it is to be your only levergun and you are considering hunting with it, you might be better off with a 44Mag as it is a much stronger platform.

I haven't used the 38/40, but a lot of friends have, it is pretty impressive as well.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[405]

I plan to use it for my club's 50 yard matches. 20" barrel is fine.

I agree with KD on this in that a short rifle or carbine is what most see in the movies thus have a lot of charm....but for controlled 50 yard shooting the rifle length barrel is probably better. They are easier to hold steady on target and the longer sight radius is better for precision. If you were short range, fast, big target Cowboy Action shooting then the shorter gun would be better.

As far as model or caliber?? Personal preference I guess. I have both the 38-40 and the 44-40 and both are good. Remember the 38-40 is a 40 cal and the 44-40 is a 43 cal :)- for those who get caught up in relative "'largeness".

I have both 73s and 92s. My impression is that each design has its strengths and each has its weaknesses. The 73s are smoother in forward bolt thrust and cartridge push to chamber but they are the weaker action. The 92s are more conventional with the angled cartridge push into chamber so may be a little jerkier but hands down far stronger by design. These points have been already posted but they are also my experiences.

Which brand?? Dunno. I don't have any Italian or modern repro 73s or 92s.

[cajun shooter]

405, You said you have a 1873 so you know that the action style makes it a much heavier rifle. The 24 in octagon barrel model is over 9 lbs and a handful if the shooter is slight of frame.
I purchased the Texas brush popper from Cimarron in 44WCF and it is over 7 1/2 pounds. That is the same weight as most modern hunting rifles and the rifle is capable of shots well past 50 yards. The 92 only weighs about 5 1/2 pounds and yet it has been used for many years as a great deer rifle.
The modern 44-40 is in a lot of guns more than a 43 caliber as you stated. Both Marlin and Winchester make barrels that slug at .430-.432 so that they may fire the same bullets as the 44 magnum. My 44-40's are made by Uberti and USFA. They all slug at .427 which is the standard set for the caliber.
When the 1873 was first produced they had barrels that were as small as .425 as I have an original loading tool with a one cavity mold and built in sizer. The mould drops bullets from 20-1 alloy that are just above .425 and the sizer is .425 on the tool.
Ruger also makes 44-40's that have larger barrels and cylinders.
The best weight bullet for the 44-40 is 200-210 grains. The factory made a 217 grain but dropped it before it was in production many years.

[405]

405, You said you have a 1873 so you know that the action style makes it a much heavier rifle. The 24 in octagon barrel model is over 9 lbs and a handful if the shooter is slight of frame.
The modern 44-40 is in a lot of guns more than a 43 caliber as you stated. Both Marlin and Winchester make barrels that slug at .430-.432 so that they may fire the same bullets as the 44 magnum.

OK, a 73 Oct 24" in 38-40 was laying out so I weighed it. It weighs 8 1/4 lbs. In standard barrel contour the 38-40 will weigh a little more than the 44-40.

I'm not sure of your point about the 44-40 NOT being a 43 caliber. If .430-.432 is not a 43 caliber then what is it? And I'd like to know as you stated, "is in a lot of guns more than 43 caliber". What are those guns? Also, these cartridges and guns, namely the 73, were designed around black powder so also I'm not sure of the comparison to the 44 Mag? That is apples to oranges as there is no comparison to be made. You say that .427 is the standard for the caliber... first I've ever heard that-- unless some of the early bullets were so sized so they would chamber and work in a black powder fouled gun. Most all the original references I've seen to the original bullet diameter for the 44-40 have it listed at .429.

[barefooter175]

My 44-40's are made by Uberti and USFA. They all slug at .427 which is the standard set for the caliber.


Both of my Ubertis, a Henry and an 1873, mike out at .429". They shoot .427s and .428s OK, but the larger bullet shoots a little better.

James

[cajun shooter]

405, I have no intentions of turning this into a peeing match with you.
John Taffin wrote a book that is titled THE BOOK OF THE 44. In this book are included such calibers as the 43 Spanish which uses a .440 bullet. While it is true that your statement is scientific correct by the measurements of the bores which run from .429 to .434 and larger.
My compassion of the 44-40 which has always been called a 44 is that when first made the bores were anywhere from .425 to .427 or higher. It has nothing to do with the fact of the black powder or oranges.
If you would do some research you will find that the .427 I posted is quite correct.
When Marlin started making guns for it they eventually went to making them the same bore size as the 44 special and 44 Magnum guns. This again is all written in history. Ruger came along and made the bores and chambers all over the place. You could buy a gun with a .431 chamber and a .427 barrel or vice versa.
Mike Venturino makes note of this and calls them collector guns.
You were making a exact size comparison and not the recorded history to make your post.
There are all kinds of misnamed things in the world of guns such as everyone using the term pistol while referring to a revolver. How many times have you heard a cowboy including Clint Eastwood and John Wayne say hand over them pistols or give me a pistol and so on.
Well the same applies to your posting. If your intentions were to change the entire world to be correct when speaking of .43 bore guns then the best of luck to you.
You do need to do some research if you are telling me I'm wrong about the size of the 44-40. I have an original loading tool that was made for the 44-40. The custom then was that a lot of people purchased these tools when they bought a rifle as the distance to buy factory was not a 30 minute automotive drive.
The tool includes a one cavity bullet mould in the design of the original 1873 bullet that was loaded by the factory. It is now called the Lyman 427098 bullet.
The cavity drops a bullet that is measured at .4255 with a 20-1 alloy. The built in sizer measures at .425 Why would such a tool be made if the 44-40 was a .431-.432?
Have a nice Christmas with your family and I will have nothing else to say on this subject. I'm just about eight weeks past a very serious heart attack that The doctors told my wife at the ER that I was just one heart beat away from death.
I have much more serious things to do with the time that God has given me. I'm very serious with my wishes for you and yours . Later David

[405]

No squirting match from this end either :)

The only reason I made the caliber comparison between the 38-40 and the 44-40 was to show how small the difference really is. On the surface many in the past have looked past the 38-40 in favor of the 44-40 simply because they didn't take a second look at the true diameters of the two. In fact during production of both the guns and the ammo from the BP era the specs were all over the map. I think Colt picking up on the Winchester 44-40 popularity may have standardized their specs around .425-7. It is obvious after inspecting a lot of Win 44-40s that Winchester used something closer to .429. I've noticed that some of the current Italian imports shade toward the smaller diameters.

No matter whether the 44-40 bore specs are .425 or .432 it simply is closer to a 43 caliber. Likewise with the 38-40 being closer to 40 caliber. The true gross comparison remains 43 caliber vs 40 calliber---- not 44 caliber vs 38 caliber as the nomenclature would indicate.

[eljefe]

I have 2 Ubertis, and load both of them (44-40) with
.430 diameter cast bullets. They shoot very well, with
Trail boss, or triple 7.

My usual load is with a 200 grain flat nose bullet.

[BAGTIC]

Get a .44 Magnum.

[cajun shooter]

405, Your last posting shows that you would continue this posting for as long as it takes to show the entire world that you are correct.
You have failed to even take time to do some real research by posting that the rifles by Winchester are at .429 which is not correct. Is there such a rifle that exists, of course it is very possible and quite true.
Is it also true that the dimensions that are given by you really are 43 caliber. Yes it is true. What you can't seem to understand is that yes I understand dimensions as I worked as a Draftsmen in my wife's business drawing blueprints. I also went to 2 years of machinist training.
My point is that the world has thousands of such oxymoron's. If your intentions are to stand on a box and show everyone where they are wrong then I wish you the best as you will find people like yourself who have only their beliefs and will fail to hear others who have a different line of thought. Good Luck Sir and Take Care David

[DEVERS454]

I will echo what FourFingersOfDeath posted.

My Uberti 44-40 guns (1860 and my previous 1866) both LOVED winchester brass but HATED Starline for black powder.

I could get the Starline working fine with Trailboss, but, gave up trying to anneal the case necks to work with GOEX.

The bullet I use exclusively with the 44-40 is the MavDutchman design for biglube and it works well. Both black and smokeless.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The bullet I use exclusively with the 44-40 is the MavDutchman design for biglube and it works well. Both black and smokeless.


Thats the boolit I will use when I get my act together. Since ownership of over 38 calibre handguns has been restricted to those willing to get a special license for them here in Australia, I have picked up either cheaply or for free, lots and lots of 427and 429 (not to mention tons of 452) commercial cast bullets. Hard to get motivated to cast when there is thousands of these sitting under the bench. I have it in my head that when I get rid of the commercial cast stuff, I will start shooting Black Powder only for cowboy action. Thats why I bought several big lube moulds (in addition to the huge number of group buy moulds you guys tempted me with, lol).

[Buzzard II]

After looking for some months for a blackpowder .44-40 rifle to use for local cas matches, and being turned off to high prices and spotty availability of Italian clones, I found a Winchester Cheyenne SRC, round barrel, 10 shot magazine commemorative for $700. new in the box to my dealer from a gentleman from Texas. The guy was a pleasure to deal with and I'll be shooting this gun in local matches come spring time. It came with a tang sight standard! Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

After looking for some months for a blackpowder .44-40 rifle to use for local cas matches, and being turned off to high prices and spotty availability of Italian clones, I found a Winchester Cheyenne SRC, round barrel, 10 shot magazine commemorative for $700. new in the box to my dealer from a gentleman from Texas. The guy was a pleasure to deal with and I'll be shooting this gun in local matches come spring time. It came with a tang sight standard! Bob

That will work fine, if you were at the cutting edge of competition, it would not be competitive as it will not cycle as quickly as some of the other rifles out there, but if you are shooting 44/40s with black powder, you are obviously not a 'gamer' and willl be well served by the rifle.

Good luck, the 44/40s are a bit of a challenge at times, but are teh bee's knees for black powder and feed as slick as frog snot!

Let us know how it works out!.

Don't buy too much brass of any one kind until you see what works best. My guns love Winchester brass, hate Magtec, tolerate Starline (most of the time) and I haven't tried Remington, because the WInchesters solved all teh problems I was having.

Yours may not be fussy, my early 1866 Uberti was very fussy, but by the time I got the 1873, I had already bought a big supply of Winchester brass by that time.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont understand this. Loaded up to the same pressures the 4440 definately has an edge in power over the 3840. I uses heavier bullets of a bigger diameter. How could it not be more effective.
The 38-40 does everything the 44-40 does, but just a little bit better.

If you want the gun for plinking or competition, you might want to consider the Uberti '73. If you want to take the gun afield, then the Miroku '92 is your huckleberry.

Marlin made guns (model 1894) in these calibers, but they are hard to find.

Who ever thought it would be easier to get a Japanese or Italian Winchester than an American Marlin. Signs and wonders....

[Four Fingers of Death]

dont understand this. Loaded up to the same pressures the 4440 definately has an edge in power over the 3840. I uses heavier bullets of a bigger diameter. How could it not be more effective.

The only real advantage I can see over the larger calibre (and what pretty much all of the 38/40 users that I have spoken to say) i that the brass is a bit stronger in the mouth and that makes the cases more durable. A tad more velocity might also be there. Not much in it, I reckon.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I have a reproduction 1873 Carbine chambered in .44-40 that I really like. It came from Cimarron Arms.

[Dirty30]

I have an 1873 Winchester 3rd model musket and love it. You will pay a little for the rifle but won't regret it. Many of these rifles were built for the Argentine Army and spent the last 100 years packed in grease and straw and were never fired. Mine was built in 1878 and is "brand new." The 30" barrel can really whip that little slug down range, and I have enjoyed precision 300 yd shooting with it. The factory sights on it are great, however I havn't met a Winchester yet that didn't find harmony with a lyman #2.

[gitano]

Thanks for your info in post 15, cajun_shooter.

Paul