Confused about leading

[pat g]

I am new to casting bullets so I have a lot to learn and this is the place that I have found the best location to learn.

Here is the question: I casted 44 mag bullets 200 gr. rnfp.
The bullet size was 431. A 429 sized bullet dropped right through the cylinder.
The bullets were tumble lubed with alox, and sat for 48 hours befor being loaded.

I tested the bullet at about 15 bhn. I loaded 7.8 gr. of Unique. ( Light Load ).
I started low because I am learning and would not like to make a mistake.

The bullets were fired from a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

After shooting about 30 rounds I cleaned the gun and there was very heavy leading. The lead came out in strips.

I believe there is a vast amount of knowledge on this site and Lord knows
I could use some help.

Thanks
Pat

The barrel is 428 and the cylinder is 430.

[454PB]

Do the .431" boolits drop right through the cylinder?

Have you slugged the bore? Are there any tight spots (barrel restrictions)?

You are using a pretty hard boolit with a very light load. It's possible that a heavier load would produce better results.

[pat g]

The 431 does not drop through the cylinder.

I have not slugged the barrel.

No barrel restrictions I can see.

Pat

[RobS]

You wouldn't see them (barrel restrictions), well unless the barrel has serious issues, but rather you'll feel them. A really tight, lighlty oiled patch on a jag and you can "feel" the barrel as you work through the bore. Pay special attention to where the barrel screws into the frame. Should you slug the bore (good idea to know what you are working with) take that slug, measure it of course and make sure it goes through each of the cylinder throats. This is a bare minimum to ensuring your barrel and cylinder throats are insink. If the bore slug doesn't go through the cylinder throats then you'll have a hard time getting the gun to shoot lead. Nothing worse than sizing your boolits right for the bore only to have the cylinders swage the boolit down before it even reaches the barrel. If .429 falls through and .431 won't the you are somewhere in between obviously and with revolvers I seem to have better luck with boolits at a minimum .001 over barrel's groove diameter.

[Larry Gibson]

What alloy?

What bullet?

Larry Gibson

[evan price]

imho you are using too hard of alloy for that light charge!
Should be about ten grains Unique starting out, it won't smack the butt end of the bullet hard enough to obturate and seal the bore at that light load.

[GabbyM]

I’ve known shooters who had to let Lee Allox dry for a week before loading the bullets. Otherwise they leaded up a 45 acp. Another possibility is your bullets are getting swaged down in size from case tension. Especially likely since you are trying to seat a .431” bullet. I’m a huge fan of Lyman M dies for neck expansion with cast bullets. That’s all I can think of to blame it on. Short of an outside chance the bore was larger than the throats.

With that low charge weight Unique will probably burn dirty. That’s not what’s causing your leading however. If it were me I’d use at least what a book list as max for the 44 Special in the larger magnum case. Looking for a decent case seal and powder burn. I moved up from 8.0 grains Unique under my 240 grain 44 mags because of dirty burn. For low velocity in a mag I’d use Bullseye or some other fast powder. The start load for Unique under a 200 gr bullet in a Lyman book is 11.8gr at 33,200 C.U.P.

[44man]

My feeling is the same as Robs, that there might be a mechanical fit problem. Tight spot or under size throats. A Ruger groove usually runs .430" so the gun needs to be slugged, both bore and throats.
Once that is done, come back and you will get more help.
I forgot, a 200 gr boolit in a mag is very light.

[cajun shooter]

I don't feel that his load is all that bad. In the sixties we loaded all large bore revolvers with 8 grs of Unique as a test load. It was also a darn good all around plinking load. Bullets from the 41 Mag at 210 grs to the 250 for the 44 mag. We have a SASS shooter who shoots that load and wins a lot of accuracy stages. It is more of a problem of bullet fit and harness.

[sqlbullet]

So, to boil all this down for a new guy:

You (and we to help you) need to know:
Size of each cylinder by slugging them
Size of the barrel groove (again, slug them)
Size of the bullet after sizing a lubing
Size of a bullet pulled from loaded ammo

As you may notice, when we investigate leading, we start with size. Nothing really overcomes a bullet that is too small for your barrel. In order to determine if that is the issue, we have to know about all the environment the bullet experiences prior to reaching the barrel.

[pat g]

Barrel: 428.
Cylinders: 430.
Lead cast projectile: 431 (after lubing )
Pulled projectile: 431

Ok Doctor what else?
When I was young I knew everything.
The older I get the dumber I am.

Pat

[Bass Ackward]

First off you don't pick a charge when you don't know the gun, the lube, the powder.

You start someplace low and then work up. When you begin to seal, the gun will clean itself up. You will see this as a velocity jump on a chrono if you are using one. Then as you increase you will eventually outrun your hardness and lube combo and begin to lead again.

This is the operating window for that lube / hardness combination. Pick your best accuracy load within this window or change to a slower powder that will give you a higher velocity window. Or a faster powder if you want to stay slower.

Or soften or harden your bullet so that you can use what powder you have. That's the basics and works for any lube or hardness combo that you come up with.

[44man]

Barrel: 428.
Cylinders: 430.
Lead cast projectile: 431 (after lubing )
Pulled projectile: 431

Ok Doctor what else?
When I was young I knew everything.
The older I get the dumber I am.

Pat
That is a VERY small groove size for a Ruger and I have to wonder if there is a tight spot at the frame????
If it is true and the bore is even then go to a .430" boolit and dump the Alox first thing. You are losing all of it at the throat and gap.
Next water drop the boolits to make them harder. The fast powder is thumping them and skidding them too much.
If that does not help, go to a heavier boolit, at least 240 and 250 to 300, 310 is better.
You also need case tension and just a nice even crimp, don't overdo it.
Use a slower powder.

[RobS]

Take the same slug, oil it and the barrel then align the slug with the muzzle end of the barrel (groove/rifling) and then push the slug back through the barrel. This will definately tell you if you have constrictions in the barrel. The slug should have about the same resistance throughout the barrel. However some barrels may have a bit of tapper at the muzzle and may be the reason your slug is smaller. In this situation there will be more resistance at the muzzle and then ease up as you go down toward the forcing cone. The thing you don't want find is a spot where you can feel the slug hit a wall. If there is to be a spot such as this it is usually where the frame and barrel screw together.

Additionally one can take a freshly cast bullet or one cast of pure lead and then push it into the forcing cone end so it engages the rifling. Then push it back out and measure. This will give you the measurements of the start of the barrel.

[pat g]

I pushed it into the forcing cone and it was 428.
Re-introducing the bullet through the muzzle and there was no tight spots.

Thanks
Pat

[excess650]

I don't think there to be a problem with the alloy, lube, or load. I suggest lubing them as cast and trying them again. The "oversize" boolit will seal the cylinder and prevent the bowby thats casuing the leading.

The load itself is a middle of the road load for 44 Spl and 44-40, so light for a 44 Mag.

[Dale53]

I have seen revolvers that were leading immediately stop when a good conventional lube was applied.

I have never been a devotee of Lee Liquid Alox. Not necessarily because it is bad but because I had a lube sizer for eons before LLA came upon the scene.

However, I have had fellow shooters, right next to me, experiencing leading. When I let them shoot some of my ammo, the leading was GONE. Just simply a matter of a better lube applied to normal lube grooves.

I DO know that some have had great luck with LLA. Some don't, for whatever reason.

You might try some conventionally sized and lubed bullets before you make a final decision as to what way you need to go.

FWIW
Dale53

[runfiverun]

something is missing here.
i,d try upping the charge another grain.
you may just need to try two coats of the lube. [as lee describes]
or try the 45/45/10 lube.
it's gotta be something simple.

[pat g]

I want to thank all of you gentlemen for sharing your knowledge with me.

I now have some idea of what to do.

There is a true wealth of knowledge and experience here.

Thanks
Pat

[MtGun44]

LLA is ALWAYS suspect when it is used and there is leading. It is, IMO, a very marginal
lube that can work in some situations. Of course, we also know that UNLUBED can work
in some situations, too.

Get a real lube like NRA 50-50 and try that before you change anything else. Any time
a newbie has issues with leading and LLA is in the picture, that should automatically be
the first suspect.

Bill

[sqlbullet]

Pat, please let us know when this resolves, what you changed. I know many of us here are interested.